ZBrushCentral

Other commercial applications discussion thread

That’s pretty cool. I’ll definitely download the trial for fun. Personally though, ZBrush seems very superior, for less $. I’ve never used Mudbox, so I’m interested to try it, but ZBrush appears to be a much more independent, capable, and artistic tool.

I’ve watched and watched vidz on Mudbox. I’ve never see anyone create original geometry on the fly in any of them. Nor have I ever seen anyone work on more than one mesh. Could be very wrong, but if Mudbox is just so you can detail one tool at a time to bring into a different environment, then what’s the damn point? Subtools, and an environment where you can pile them on quickly is the fun side of digital sculpting. It’s a blast creating an entire scene inside of ZBrush, with so much artistic freedom.

For many workflows, I’m sure it’s a great tool. Might even be one for me. At a glance, though, it just doesn’t appeal to the artist in me at all. I couldn’t care less about detailing some dumb ass toad torso if I can’t build onto the scene in house.

Actually Mudbox lets you work with a whole tree of meshes. It’s really a different tool in many ways because it’s designed to fit into a pipeline versus one man band. If you don’t want to use Mudbox’s starting points, then you pretty much start with a base mesh from a more typical modeling program such as Silo, Modo, or Maya. Personally, I use both Mudbox and ZB.

They are two different approaches to the same problem.

Mudbox is geared to users with a pipeline (such as create geometry, detail & paint, animate, render.)

Zbrush is geared to the all-in-one artist. It has tools for creating (zspheres), tools for detailing and paint, and rendering. ZBrush, unless you insist upon counting turntables, really doen’t support animating.

Mudbox plays nice with others including fairly reliable import/export including key elements such as UV in/out, Displacement and Normal maps.

Zbrush does not place nice with others, esp. ZB 3.12. It is quite fussy on UV import (less so in ZB3.1 vs 3.0), and its map generation is broken in ZB3.12. Without map generation, it is difficult to incorporate ZB3.12 model into a pipeline, requiring a mix of PC and Mac tools. This is OK for larger shops, but smaller one-man shops which are Mac-only are SOL.

I’ve also come to seperate the two companies. Autodesk is a big, heartless bureacracy. Pixologic is little, heartless, and often petty operation. (Note the deleted threads they don’t like, the pissing off od Wayne Robson, the inability to even make an accurate statement about bug fixes, etc.)

I like ZB the product, but Pixologic’s attitude is a “take it or leave it.” On the other hand, Pixologic so far has given free upgrades for life. Autodesk will inevitably try to get $200-300/year out of Mudbox users once they hit their stride.

Neither product is ideal. On the Mac platform, ZB is essentially a closed system. This will suffice for single users with little or no intent to render outside of ZB. Shops that need a pipeline will have to to look to other players like Mudbox, Silo, or Modo for sculpting tools.

Since I’m also a teacher with private students, their is another key difference between the products. ZBrush is very steep in learning curve and its user interface can be difficult for novices to manage. For most new users, Mudbox is far more approachable.

I personally believe that, should Pixologic continue to innovate, that users will “graduate” from Mudbox to Zbrush over time. However, this will depend somewhat on Pixologic. My past experience (and that of several of my students on Macs) is that Pixologic is driving their own customers into the arms of Mudbox, if only for the safety of a reliable, interoperable solution. I expect they will be disappointed ovet time in some of Mudbox’s shortcomings. These include: hefty workstation requirements, lower polygon counts than ZB, and (as you have pointed out) no geometry creation tools. I also find that Zbrush, to me, feels more fluid (having worked extensively in both on the PC under Vista.)

Do I plan to keep using mudbox in pipeline projects? Yes. Do I plan on using ZBrush for ground up figure design? Yes. If you can afford both, I recommend both since they do different things. If can you afford only one, then you have to evaluate what you will be doing with the sculptures. If you’re playing in a production pipeline (create-detail-animate-render) with real deadlines, you may want to consider Mudbox. If you are a sculptor who demands the most powerful sculpting environment, you’ll probably want ZB (if you can stand the quirks.) If you’re on a PC and need RAID (say for video editing) you’re hosed with ZB right now.

It is certainly my hope that Pixologic mends it ways with respect to customer relations, but watching threads and people disappear is probably not going to convince me (or anyone else following the ZB vs Mudbox discussions) that ZB truly understands how many of us would like to see them succeed and how disappointed we are in the flawed 3.12 release and their flawed DRM system.

-K

I’ve always wondered about that since I’ve never really seen it. Most of the vids I’ve seen are time lapses. Likely just sketches and busts. Can you use a whole bunch, like with subtools, to deck out a scene? Or does it slow things down beyond a few accessories?

That’s definitely why the box doesn’t seem as good to me, my workflow is not really for 3d output. I could imagine how frustrating it could get within that kind of pipeline if the pieces just don’t fit.

ZBrush is the perfect compliment to digital painting, though. Since that’s what I do all day every day, my opinion is definitely biased and from a different perspective than the usual modeler.

I would also put it this way–I have both Painter and Photoshop. Superficially they do a lot of the same things, but they also do enough different things, I keep them both around. (And I have Sketchbook Pro too, because for quick sketch ups, it’s perfect for me.) It comes down to the right tool for the right job. In this case, through serious missteps, ZB isn’t the right tool for pipeline jobs on the Mac, and the only ways around it are to work in Windows. It’s OK with me if ZB doesn’t want to be pipeline suitable on the Mac, but then they should say so up front, rather than tantalizing their Mac customers with an incomplete and clearly broken product. If Corel had pushed out a version of Painter as broken as ZB3.12, I would have considered dumping them for Photoshop, as many Mac users will likely dump ZB3.12 for Mudbox 2009.

What breaks my heart is: It didn’t have to happen this way. Pixologic made decisions, both architecturally and out of arrogance that has driven much their original Mac base away. They could have made the architecture changes (as they had said) back in the ZB2 days. They didn’t. They could have started the Mac port in parallel with ZB3 Beta, rather than apparently wait until nearly ZB 3.1 was done (or so it seemed.) They could have shown some recognition that 18 months to port ZB3 to the Mac was going to be too long a gap to satisfy their loyal customers. They could have recognized that putting out a barely tested product–dare I say “Beta” product–they call it “transitional” now–was not going to fly with many customers. They could have, by now, at least put out a patch for some of the more flagrant issues with the product, rather simply deleting the dissatisfied discussion of the few customers left from their message board.

Nobody made them promise ZB3.5 in 2008. No one made them say the fixes will be in ZB3.5 instead of the patch. No one made them say, we’ll tell you more in Q1 and then turn around and say, “We’re not going to say anything.” These were Pixologic’s decisions.

As far as mulit-mesh use, I really haven’t pushed Mudbox this way. Because its part of my pipeline, the pieces tend to go straight into Maya for scene making. (Maya has a pretty good rendering environment–Mental Ray.) It doesn’t seem to bog down for me with several meshes, but most of the time I only need a few meshes to develop the character or object in relation to other objects like clothes and accessories. The real comp’ing and rendering work for me is Maya or C4D. Maybe when ZB at least has true rigging (versus simple a on-the-fly transpose that usually requires re-sculpt after posing the figure) I feel that ZB is a sufficiently complete environment for my needs. ZB’s material system, though neat is also rather limiting.

If you’re happy with ZB, there is no need to switch. If you have to work in a pipeline, because you need to do the things ZBrush doesn’t do (which are numerous) then, at least on the Mac, you need to look elsewhere until ZB 3.5 emerges from the shadows.

-K

If they would just release a patch for the Mac version of ZBrush (or even announce that one is imminent) then Mac users would be less inclined to look around for alternatives, because ZBrush totally rocks when it works properly. It would be a tragedy to give away customers rather than fix it.

Hey Kerwin, did they delete the thread that had a workaround to the displacement issue? I can’t seem to find it.

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Well I’m getting a bit of a special offer from industry chums on Mudbox and I’m happy to create meshes in LW/Modo/Quidam, sculpt and then export for render in my 3D app, so I think Mudbox - in terms of user-friendliness, a sensible, modern UI and speed/power - seems ideal for me.

Still haven’t sold the damn ZBrush license though - wish i could get my money back; maybe I’ll try a begging letter. (Anyone want it?)

Pixologic are insane. All of this could have been avoided with a few nicely-worded emails or forum posts. And I still don’t believe the Mac version couldn’t have been patched by now.

to be totally honest, I own both- and use both. I can see your pain from being a mac user w/ all of the bugs, but can’t relate exactly since I use the PC version.

other than that, the only notable difference (to me) between Z and Mudbox, is that when Mudbox 2010 comes out I will have to pay for it :slight_smile:

Mudbox has its share of flaws as well, but here lately the service packs have been taking care of the major ones. I agree that pixologic needs to put some sort of maintenance cycle into the mix, rather than just one ‘development’ team that handles everything from R&D to the tiny bug fixes. I dont know of a single professional artist who wouldn’t mind paying for some sort of ‘gold’ subscription where we could get regular bug fixes and access to beta builds. that kind of revenue could support the entire development cycle honestly…

Who gives a flying f*** about mudbox.

Don’t get me wrong autodesk make great products, but ZBrush is far superior.

Yes it has a steaper learning curve because of the non-windows-like Interface, but once you get used to it, Windows interfaces look and behave SUCKY! :lol:

I’m telling you guys, when 3.5 comes out it’s gonna blow everything else out of the water.

Mudbox smudgebox…Pixologic just have better stuff - you know it’s true.

I really wanna use 3.5, but I won’t switch because it is taking longer than expected - thats what all the fuss is about - Everyone is not angry because Pixologic lack a development team that can’t code - it’s because they want 3.5 SO BAD

Im not getting into this debate, I have seen enough talks of this type and they dont seem to get anywhere. I know which program I like more, at least for now.
As stated above, I`m not trying to make a point, I just have a curiosity: I would like to see a gallery of models made with the new Mudbox. Since the Mudbox videos and the hype started I have been looking around (not too much, ocasionally) for examples of work done with it. Most of the stuff I have found is old, like these:
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=10710228

It actually disappeared. I suppose Pix will now revert to the position that the displacement map problem does not exist/is fixed.

Frankly I was planning to stay in the shadows--the 3DWorld article already had pointed up Pix's inadequacy in this department without additional help from me. But now, Pixologic is not only content to give us "silence" for the Mac 3.12 issues (which sadly only PC users with RAID systems can fully appreciate) but they are attempting to silence people in these forums through deletion of threads. While it's certainly in their rights to do so, it's both petty and childish. Since they won't discuss it, I've started a thread of the most promising mac-only solution left to pipeline users; Mudbox 2009, which, though 45 days late, is at least here, and ZB 3.5 is unknown. Since I've been around the block with Pixologic on the Mac (even though I use Vista now) and I remember the "ZBrush 2.5" that never came, the Zmapper that never came, and now we're in the "Zbrush 3.5 beta" that is in undiscovered territory, I think Mac users deserve some place to discuss their pipeline issues with ZB. I fully expect two reactions: 1) The thread will be overun with PC-trolls that don't have the problems the mac user have and will gloat and taunt. 2) The thread will be also be assailed by ZB users who have *never used mudbox* but feel free to declare their contempt for it. I have both and the three other ZB artists I work with now have both and are using Mudbox and ZB every day. I fully conceed that Mudbox is not a *perfect* solution for create-detail-animate-render pipeline, but I would contend, on a Mac, that it is a *better* solution because of ZB's bewilderingly stubborn failure to release a repair patch for the displacement map generator on the mac, essentially delivering *parity* with PC users on 3.1. I'm not arguing about new features. I'm not even arguing about which product has the richest, most complete feature set. What I'm saying is this: If you are a mac user, and you have a traditional create-detail-animate-render pipeline, as of 4/15 you now have a serious alternative to fighting with ZB 3.12, unable to create your hi-res maps. It has come to this because of Pixologic's open neglect (dare I say contempt) of the Mac product in professional use. Personally, I will continue to use both. I'm on Windows Vista, and I am well funded for my work, so it's no longer an issue for me. I will predict a third outcome, which I've sadly come to expect from Pixologic: They will ultimately lock, delete, or merge this thread to try to make it vanish, along the with voices of those who have been for (nearly two years since the release of ZB 3.0, longer if you've been waiting for Zmapper) a parity-level version of ZB for the Mac. Not worth the ink, but after five years (I've been a ZB Mac user since ZB 1.5) I'm starting to agree with Wayne Robson (author of "Essential Zbrush")--It's time to move on. As Wayne put it in his own blog, I don't have the luxury of being a fan of any one app. -K

(And my third prediction occurred–merged/buried in a 621 post thread without a tile.)

TTFN Pixologic. It was a fun ride and we made some money together. Time to move on. Good luck with ZB3.5.

-K

Jeez, will someone please buy my frickin’ ZBrush license so I can enjoy a guilt-free trip over to Mudbox island?

(It’s for the Mac, obviously.)

I’m on board, or in the box. cool so far! Can’t yet find symmetry.

:large_orange_diamond: So that’s what happened to Wayne.
:large_orange_diamond: I would gladly pay a couple of hundred dollars for upgrades (bugs fixed).
:large_orange_diamond: Still like ZBrush site, having no pooting, wizzing, giffing adverts.
:large_orange_diamond: Will now try crash Mudbox .

If you can wait until the end of 2009, you’ll see a whole movie filled with Mudbox models. Avatar that is… We’re using Mudbox exclusively now here at Weta. You’ll be blown away. I guarantee it! Just wait and see. :cool:

Anyway… I know I’ll be giving the OSX demo version of Mudbox a try when they release it and won’t hesitate to purchase a license if I like what I see. If only to further bolster the idea in AutoDesk’s mind that the Mac is a worthy platform. I want my Softimage on OSX!! :lol:

I can’t help thinking that it if it’s good enough for Weta… y’know? Anyway, I’m in. I’ll drop the cash on it next week (pay day).

When I discovered the retopo tools in 3d-coat I felt I had wasted my time learning and suffering retopology in zbrush. I wonder if pixologic will try to improve this feature or we all will end buying 3d coat. Not to talk about the volumetric sculpting thing. We all love zbrush but we should be open to see whats better.

Keep in mind I’ve only toyed with it.

Although really boring to look at, I like the interface layout. Simple and clean. I like the viewport filters. I like the smoothing of the surface so you don’t see actual polygons.

I could see how people that heavily use traditional 3d apps could dig it, because that’s what it feels like. Like you’re back in the 3d mold again…Personally don’t like the feel at all, but that’s just me. ZBrush is what got me into 3d, so the usual environment has always seemed less inspiring. The brushes don’t feel as smooth initially, but the overall performance appears to be very solid at high poly counts.

For my approach to digital art, Mudbox seems weak compared to ZBrush as an artistic toolset, and too pipeline dependent for my creative flow. However, it’s up to par with the basic sculpting and painting functionalities in pipeline workflows. Much more of an accessory to an external app than an inspiring sculptor’s studio. Not for me. Composing with subtools is like adding clay. No jumping back and forth disrupting the creative flow. Just freedom to create on the fly. I even sculpt hard edge objects since my work is only for illustration.

As a digital artist, not a technical modeler, ZBrush is obviously going to appeal to me more. So my opinion is biased. Between the 3d, 2.5d, and 2d sculpting and painting tools, ZBrush is artistic lightning in a bottle. I hope version 4 offers even more creative control and artistic independence.

Overall, it seems like healthy competition for ZBrush within pipeline workflows, but not nearly as feature rich or artistic for the price difference. Comparable basic functionality, but they’re actually very different applications.

I dont know what im doing wrong with mudbox but i just
cant get a decent sculpt with it as hard as i try.
The brushes just feel so … wrong.

I like ZB’s brush set better myself. Of course, I probably have about 1000 hours experience with ZB’s brushes and only a few dozen on Mudbox.

It looks like Mac users will get a fix on Monday, so maybe the main pipeline problems with ZB3 on Mac will be resolved.

I’m hoping that ZB4 will improve imaged-based texturing so that it’s easy as polypainting. That would let us get more detail into our models without out pushing the poly counts quite so high.

Mudbox has some slight advantage in terms of layers and 3D coat has voxels, but I think the biggest room for improvement in pipeline’s will be in topology management (all these products have a tendency to get the topology very unbalanced with free sculpting.) Whoever comes up with an animation friendly remeshing tool to re-balance and reproject hi-freq detail to balanced, animaiton friendlu low-poly meshes, will probably make the next leap in shops like ours.

(Right now, I tend to use Silo or Modo to remake base meshes and ZB-s “Project All” tool. ZB’s retopo tools are interesting, but a little tricky.)

-K