Zsphere/Modeling Humanoid 1st attempt any help appreciated!

[AngelJ]

Hello all,

Recently purchased Z-brush, had tested the demo some long while ago and happily bought the program. Just created my first humanoid creation, could use some tips or help if anyone has any thoughts. I am currently looking at FAQ items to find help there. Basically, as i’m sure with most new users the hands and feet mesh become distorted. From what i’m reading it has to do with certain settings such as xyz res items, ires, etc.

Is it possible to alter those settings on your zsphere model after they have been drawn or is it a matter of having to remake your model? Here’s a few sample images of what i’m doing.

Also, is it easier to try to use zspheres on the head portion to create geometry for the eyes and nose or after you had divided the adaptive skin to shape and select polygons for edge loop and crease functions to help create eyes and nose. I’m sure it all depends on users prefered methods as there are many options i’m sure available. Would appreciate to hear others experiences and ideas to help me with my learning curve. Looking forward to hearing some thoughts… many thanks in advance!!

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[Jason_Belec]

Welcome,

Almost everything you may need to know, however we answer any questions you may post…

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=21407

Simple answer, xyzscript.

[Blaine91555]

XYZ Script
It is the holy grail

[AngelJ]

XYZScript eh… sounds great I’ll definitely check it out!! Many thanks Jason and Blaine. Keep up the great work and friendly advice!

[lemonnado]

And stay away from overlapping geometry. Arrange Z-Spheres till nothing overlaps or it will eat your breakfast when you try and use it in any other external application. And who wants that…
Cheers
Lemo

[AngelJ]

Thanks Lemonnado will try to stay away from overlapping and deformed geometry, which is quite the challenge with Zspheres on certain things such as my poor hands and feet. I figure once I find the XYZScript and put it to use hopefully will help me out a lot. The model I started with appears ok for the most part other than the hands and feet as far as clean geometry. Going to make some hunch back type of humanoid like thing, but want the true challenge to keeping the hands and feet fairly normal.

Been reading Jason Belec’s thread a wealth of information there, i’m on page like 36… geez making my head spin with all the data. Hopefully I’ll retain some useful information out of it. Now back to reading that thread and hopefully finding the XYZscript item. If anyone wants to ummm add it as a attachment and save me from missing it… I wouldn’t be at all ummm bothered by that ehehe. :lol:

[Zanden]

xyz adjust, search for it, it helps loads

eh i got bored, heres the searched links I use them all, xyz if I just want to adjust that Edit for basic editing (though you have to load the script since its in another folder and I dont want to mess up xyz) ahd when i want all the bells and whistles then i use zifclick. Makes short work of hands, on average its 4 that you will need, count the protrustions you need and go one down for what I like to call “sphere Ires”.) You will have to play with the placement a tad to get each one on its own poly, which is what you want or you get the infamous and very much dreaded cracked looking mesh
Didgits’s
ZIF CLick 2.0 beta (Page 2 has the updated version)

TV Eyes’s
XYZ Adjust
ZIF Edit rev B

Note: the mesh will turn red in that sphere area and may shrink a little, this is normal. Oh yeah you will want to make these adjustments before you store the MT and start editing polys. I learned this the hard way

[AngelJ]

Hello Insanity,

Many thanks for going the extra mile and putting those links up, I actually did find the xyzadjust script after I posted my last message. It is a very sweet function, my hats off to TVeyes. Zifclick and Zif Edit rev B i’ll have to look into figure out what they are and how to use them.

I’m totally new to working in the 3D genre and applications, figure this program appeared to be a good place to start. Trying to gain insight on how to build models that can be used in other applications. So wanting to be sure the base model follows the necessary rules for that possibilities. Whats a good rule when trying to be sure that the polygons aren’t overlapping?

After I messed around with the xyzadjust script on the hands a feet they appear better but I still am just going off my gut instinct without any real concrete know how. I put the tool in the attachment if anyone wants to take a look point out things that I could/should be doing differently. I have yet to use any magnets, not sure if they translate over to other programs well or if I should just try to do without them. Also, if I try to add any zspheres to the current Head structure it becomes well totally deformed, is it adequate enuff to use as a base and to just sculpt the rest of the face geometry after I save morph and add the adaptive skin, adding the facial details as I work up the subdivisions?

Really enjoy this friendly and knowledgeable community, you guys are great!!

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[Jason_Belec]

You can try just sculpting the face, many do. But adding, eyes, ears and mouth greatly help structure. Reduce the xzy value you have back to zero and add them, then increase to suit if you like.

[Zanden]

Im still noob myself but it looks like youre doing well to avoid the cracked hand effect but your feet have crossed polys, which will cause trouble later at higher divisions. Make the x res 4 and it solves the problem, see attachment, i changed the one on the right, dont mind the name, I use a snap software. Yes magnets do translate to other programs, just make polymesh, draw it and export it. when you switch to poly view that is exactly what it will look like when exported.

When you make a magnet, size it before you turn it into a magnet, eyeball the mesh, lets say your making a crossbow attachment like I just did, make sure its the basic shape you want for the butt, never minding the roundness of the 2 future magnets, then magnet them and the mesh will bend to approxamately the shape of a crossbow butt. It saved me loads of time, instead of having bend the mesh the magnets did it for me to where I just have to finish off the shape and smooth it out.

Magnets are also great for props as well. Protude one out from the sphere closest to where it will be needed, turn it into a magnet then park a sphere on the magnet. The mesh will snap back, realizing the magnet is a prop and allow you to build the prop. Once you’re in the posing for stop motion just grab the magnet and move it where you need it or if it wont move right copy it to another using zif click and delete the old one, which is what im planning on doing. At the moment the crossbow is attached to her waist so i can make it symetrical then I will move it if I need it at her left shoulder. (Vicky is left handed)

I hope I helped you out, this is stuff I have learned by repeatedly starting over from scratch. Some people call it determination i call it stubborness. I want to get her done, I dont care how many times it takes and I know that by learning from my mistakes my other characters will be much faster. One day I will write a tutorial about what I learned.

~~Insanity

PS, You dont mind if I mutate it some and use him as a monster in my game later, do ya? Then again, I cant use him cause he explodes once you move the polys and hit A, unless I make it a polymesh and use an external program to animate it.

[AngelJ]

Jason,

Ahh I see, right I thought having some type of built in geometry might be better as you say for a type of foundation for the face. I don’t think I actually changed the XYZ values on the head spheres… will make sure, just noticed everytime I added a sphere to the head shape it always turned out ugly. Will continue to experiment.

Insanity,

I see your attachment helped a lot, will try to keep a better look out for cross polys, they don’t always seem hard to find but sometimes when your going around and around things start to look all the same hehe. Appreciate the info on the magnets maybe will start to use them a bit more to help with certain things. Definitely gives me a ton more food for thought!! Please feel free to use any tool I put in a attachment, definitely free game. I’d be truly honored if anyone used a base tool of mine and refined it for there own purposes. This forum is a two way street as far as im concerned, if I can learn from others and at any time be of use to others that is what its all about to me. Love your signature, we got a quite a few common interests there I just noticed . By the way you said the model explodes please feel free to tell more!! Do you mean as a unified skin or as a adaptive skin ?

[Zanden]

well, move a poly or 2 and then hit A two times and you will see how it just goes all over the place. I finally figgured out what was wrong with it, you have to use morph target on both versions once done, Go to zphere view tools, morph tartged store mt then go to poly view and do it again, deleting the morph target and replacing it with a new one.

I’ve taken to using zif edit more recently, because its a HUD that sits down there and you can change to poly view once you hit ctrl+D to select it and adjust. It will flash to sphere, change it and flash back meaning that you can see your change in real time, I found it very handy for my hands.

In regards to the game, it may or may not be free, depends on how good it turns out. The way my modeling is shaping up, thanks to zbrush it may go comercial, we have a good story, Zbrush can effortlessly make any type of plant (I played some scripts and am impressed withthe add mesh, great for leaves) In fact I made a nice little alien tree once the mesh script was done. Anyways, I’ve strayed from my topic. I was thinking about having it as either a monster or npc of a species. This is on an alien world, where things evolve differently so I can use almost anything, if there is a reason for it to evolve in that way.

But like I said, always go in and look for crossed polys (protusions shared by one face) and correct it before you get deep in into editing your mesh, even if it means that you will have to start out with a sphere-like shape because you would rather have too many than too little and a flubbed up mesh. Zspheres are like a sky dive–once you jump there aint no going back on that plane, just pray that your parachute works. Saves are your parachute, best to make many than too few.

[AngelJ]

Hi Insanity,

Hope your having/had a great day. I have yet to have time to work on it more yet but will definitely store the Morph target before sculting as Jason and yourself have mentioned. So you gotta do it twice morph target thing in both views… kinda odd, hrmm okies will give it a go. Zif Edit sounds like a handy function…or HUD that is, i take it Zif Edit and Zif click are different in what they do? I’ll check out those two links have yet to do that as well.

As far as what I meant as “definitely free game” was meant as use the attachment(base model)any way you see fit wasn’t meant to imply that what your working on is going to be free. All the hard work and creativity I see I would most certainly like everyone to be able to use it in a commercial fashion if that is their wish. The gaming world as huge as it is there is plenty of business to go around for anyone willing, so I hope yours turns into a big success!! I’m naturally a gamer so i’m looking forward to checking it out Insanity .

I’ll definitely try to be more aware of the cross polys for sure, it just got me a lil boggled after a while staring at the same thing and adjusting xyz values then looking and trying to find the best one after a bit started to all look alike. Very grateful for all the insight from all the nice folks here like you and Jason, nice to know I can get some feedback and reassurance when necessary without pulling out all my hair ehehe.

[Zanden]

thanks AngelJ, I also found out that you have to cage it on lowest poly under Geometry as well. Fortunately, this helps on the sculping process, if you make a change on low poly it will also be a visible change on the higher polys.

Name your monster, that way you will know it when you see it for I will put a link to the game when complete. I ask that you name it for it will not remain looking like this, I will err evolve it some. Try to chose a unique and easy to pronounce/spell name. I will also ensure that you are credited as well. (We will probably have a nice little demo.)

With pesudo 3d graphics, especially in the battle system, and a good story its bound to be a good play.

I suggest the zifedit, if all you want is basic editing, its great for simple manipulation of the spheres and doesnt often crash. With zif click, the more polys you have the more often it crashes, but it is good for moving the root, precise sizing and other things. Problem with zif edit is you have to manually load it using the load script function but I feel thats a small price to pay for simple elegance.

Have fun!

[AngelJ]

Hey Folks

ok so store morph in zsphere view mode and in preview poly mode (for a adaptive skin?) then cage it when you have the skin in the lowest subdivision then you can begin sculpting? Making sure I know exactly what your saying… don’t want to assume anything. Also do you all generally sculpt once you convert it to a adaptive skin or do you sculpt while its in preview mode and use the density slider as well as using divide to move between subdivision levels?

Ok Insanity sounds like Zifedit works lil more consistently than the other, also it sounds like it does something different than the xyzadjust script? I’ll give it a try, by the way as someone suggested on another thread I put the xyzadjust script in the zstartup folder and it always loads once I start zbrush maybe it will do the same for the zifedit one. I’ll give it a try and let you know. Hopefully it will work in conjuction with the xyzadjust script and not cause some kind of glitch.

Name the monster? Oh that would be awesome though would be nice to know what type of game genre it is sounds like sci-fi more or less from what you described. Be nice to be sure so I can try to think of something that may fit that type of theme. Will give it some thought and toss some things out but dont laugh cause I’m sure some may sound funny ehehe. When you brainstorm I always come up with ok sounding ideas and others that are just well laughable. Look forwarding to hearing from you as always!

[Jason_Belec]

Please go through the built in Help again. Also visit the zsphere therad in my signature and take the time to go through it. You are mixing up terms and instructions in a big way. You are also making it much harder than it has to be for yourself.

[AngelJ]

Thanks Jason,

Yeah i’m doing a combination of reading the reference guides, practical guides and various threads here. Trying to learn all the lingo and best ways to use information I read. Its not a surprise i’ve mixed and match things here and there. When I work in Zbrush I just bite the bullet and experiment to the best of my ability. However at times I tend to get cautious since I don’t want to always have to back track if its not necessary. Which is ultimately the reason I come here and ask all my ehem for lack of a better term boggling-confused questions .

[Zanden]

it is a fantasy game, based on another planet with different rules of evolution to make it seem a wee bit realistic.

As for zif edit and xyz coexisting im afraid you cant because he has used the file Layout.psd in both plugins and edit wont load up like the xyz, but I prefer edit anyways over xyz, same funtion but more options. (remember D becomes select)

Zif Click has its uses, the resizing spheres for example is great for getting the perfect size but make sure to count how many times you change it because you have to do it for the other half too. The move root is also very handy if you like to start from the head and work your way down like myself. The chest makes a much better root. You can also draw spheres and other things, which is why it comes with a manual. It too can adjust the xyz but it is tucked away into a sub menu. Like I said before it can be unstable and crash but once he/she perfects it it will be a powerful tool.

As for sculting, if you wish to pose it inside of zbrush by moving the spheres you have to StoreMT in sphere view, then do it again in poly preview, move a point in an easily noticable way, just as a test, and go to sphere then back to poly. If the moved points stay where they should be then it is safe to sculpt. If they look like they’ve been electrocuted and thrown about worse than a mad scientist’s hairdo then restore from a backup, repeat and cage (under geomerty) a lower poly mode. I have found that sometimes you have to cage, and other times you dont. I have no idea why it does this though.

But if your going to animate/pose it in an external application then make a polymesh 3d once you add everything you want in it, making sure there are pleny of spheres to work with, for each sphere is like one Level one subdivide poly line unless it has children. When I do this I often chose the low poly view and get the very basic lines that I want. Then I go to 2 and double check everything. Dont forget to chose how mch skin you want, min to child/parent, which works great for humanoid/animal meshes. After that make your polymesh and sculpt til your heart is content then export it when done as an obj.

Jason: I have tried and tried many ways to ensure that the mesh is editable, I have used Morph Target in just the sphere view and got the tossed shards. I have tried without and nothing at all happens, it reverts to unedited form but the root. Ive also tried it without the cage and it often tosses the shards. Only the “Double morph and cage” technique seems to work for me, maybe its because im running windows.

Anyhow I hope I havent made it sound confusing to you.

Have fun

~~Insanity

[AngelJ]

Hi Insanity,

Your basic game premise sounds pretty neat! Makes me wanna check it out when its ready. Appreciate the explanation of the tools, I downloaded ZifEdit and I did change the name of the layout.psd hoping that would help but aye seems so far i’ve not got it to be able to load like the xyzadjust script does on the startup. I’ll continue with xyzadjust a bit more and get used to the original zbrush layout first then after a bit when I get more comfortable as I move along I’ll check out the others.

On the matter of sculpting again truly appreciate the time you took to help me better understand the information. As Jason pointed out… still got a lot to learn on the terminology. My amibitions with using Zbrush is to make things decently with the program but to also be used to animate and such with other programs. I figure learning how to pose it in Zbrush would be beneficial to see how the mesh moves about to a degree.

I’m going to try the suggestions you and Jason have kindly passed on. Currently I took the zsphere model and stored the Morph target. Then I put it preview mode under adaptive skin and raised the density slider to 7 and went into the geometry area where I used the lower res/higher res buttons to work in between the subdivisions. I did take the arms and raised them up and the hands over to see if the morph target worked. I think it did so though with me being so new to this program i’m not totally sure. I did change the minimal skin to child which as you said helped a lot in what I thought I wanted to start with mesh wise. Moved the membrane curve a tad helped a lil as well. Before I did any of this I did make a few adjustments to the zsphere model with magnet here and there as well as couple more zspheres. I inflated some of the mesh moved some of the face polygons around to start to build a facial structure in it. Never could get zspheres to add mesh accordingly to start a foundation for face and ears though.

It appears you can’t use the edge loop command though working at it like this and I feel at some point I will make a polymesh3D/adaptive skin as you suggested ( I believe from what I understand they are both one and the same thing.) Think using the edge loop command might be helpful. Though, I don’t think you can pose it in Zbrush once its a adaptive skin/polymesh3d item right? At any rate at this point I figure i’ll just experiment here on out with sculpting. I figure I got enough stages saved of the zspheres/base polygon model that I can re-do the sculpting part again if i so desire after i get better experieneced.

Once again thanks for taking the time to pass along the information and the kind encouragement to carry on!

[Zanden]

I meant move the polys around like this:

Ima going to write a quick tutorial on how prevent that with pictures and everything. Soon as I make a basic model to work with. Just remember, with min skin to child/parent you need more zspheres to fill in the rough details like arm shape and stuff. And i hope when you tested the high division that you restored from a backup and didnt work with that verson cause it will make it dificult on your cpu to translate all that you did on the lower one and might lock it up. I did that once

Anyhow watch my sig for the tut. it will be on our wiki site.

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