ZBrushCentral

Why can't I edit my object anymore?

When you are 3D sculpting or painting an object, there are three conditions whereby ZBrush will convert a copy of this object into your image with depth.

ZBrush will “snapshot” your object if you change tools or canvas layers (Layer palette, as opposed to Tool >> Layer sub-palette), or if you select the Snapshot icon (or press Shift+s).

Snapshotting a copy of your 3D object into the document converts what you see to part of your image with depth (2.5D image).

At this point, you have two options: First, you can enter Edit mode (press “t” or the Edit icon in the Draw or Floating palette) or a Transformation mode (press “w” for Move, “e” for Scale or “r” for Rotate - or click on the appropriate icons in the Draw or Floating palette) to sculpt, paint or move/scale/rotate your 3D object. Second, you can continue painting your image (as a painting instead of a 3D object). If you change tools or layers, the copy of your object you snapshot will become a permanent part of your image with depth (unless you Undo the operation - by pressing Ctrl-z or Command-z or pressing Document/Undo).

Regardless of what you choose to do, your 3D tool remains in the selection window for you to later re-select for further editing or transforming. To continue editing or transforming your 3D object (so you can re-snapshot it into your image, or Export it), you should make sure this object is selected in the Tool palette, then click and drag in your document to create a new “active” version to edit or transform. Then you should enter an Edit or Transformation mode as described above.

Saving your work using the Document palette saves your 2.5D image. Saving using the File or Tool palette saves your current model as a 3D object that can be edited later.

So why doesn’t ZBrush simply keep the 3D object floating all the time? ZBrush snapshots a copy of your 3D object into your image so you can continue editing on a pixel-by-pixel level (which a 3D object cannot allow for). In order to have this control, you must be working with pixols (pixels with color, material, depth and orientation information) - the foundation for ZBrush’s speed and flexibility.

ZuZu: I just got the demo version of Zbrush. I’m trying to figure out why the three transform options (move, scale, rotate) are somtimes not available.

The manual says that depending on certain settings, one or all of these may not be available, so that probably has something to do with it.

As an example: I draw a cylinder for a tree. I transform it as desired. I then pick the SnakeHookBrush and make roots coming out of it.

Now I want to again scale, move, or rotate the tree as a whole, but those options aren’t available to me.

What am I missing?

Thanks!

–Thunderwatch

Hi Thunderwatch, and Welcome to ZBrush Central!

ZBrush is a combination 3D Modeling and 2.5D Painting program. The cylinder3D is a 3D tool, and the Snakehookbrush is a 2.5D Tool, meaning that it does not add geometry to your Cylinder mesh, although it does interact with the mesh to create a seamless 2.5D image.

If you wish to model your cylinder3D tree trunk to have roots that are part of it’s geometry, you have several options:

  1. You can create the trunk with the cylinder3D, and then model separate roots individually (from any tool with 3D in it’s name) to be joined into a combined mesh to create your tree.

  2. You can model your 3D trunk, then pull the roots out of the geometry of the cylinder3D itself.

You may need to mask the areas around the roots that you are creating - then subdivide your mesh so that the roots have a high enough mesh density. If you mask all of the areas of your mesh, except for the where the roots will intersect your Cylinder, you will be able to either manually pull the roots out from the mesh, or use one the functions available in the TOOLS:Modifiers Subpalette to partially extrude the roots for you to edit. Masking is not completely necessary, although it may make things easier.

Please feel free to post questions about these methods on the main ‘ZBrush Forum’.

You may want to take a look through Quicklinks and the ZBrush manual for more information.

You can download the ZBrush manual from the download page at Pixologic:

www.pixologic.com

-ZuZu :slight_smile:

Thanks! One more question, if I could:

Even without using the 2.5D tool – just creating, say, a helix – when I save the document and open it again, I can’t move, scale, or rotate the helix.

Similarly, if I create a helix on Layer 1, then create a new Layer 2 and put a sphere (or whatever) on the Layer 2, I can’t go back and transform the helix on Layer 1.

Is there a way to “activate” the transform tool to modify previously created shapes?

Thanks again. I’ll check out the main threads and support documents as you suggest. :slight_smile:

–Thunderwatch

Hi Thunderwatch,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Even without using the 2.5D tool – just creating, say, a helix – when I save the document and open it again, I can’t move, scale, or rotate the helix. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Save/Save As in the DOCUMENT Palette saves your image in 2.5D.

To save a 3D Tool, use the ‘Save As’ function in the TOOL:Inventory SubPalette.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Similarly, if I create a helix on Layer 1, then create a new Layer 2 and put a sphere (or whatever) on the Layer 2, I can’t go back and transform the helix on Layer 1. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To re-select an object after you have moved on to another one, you can use Markers.

Before you snapshot your first object to the canvas, make sure to place a Marker. Your object will automatically get snapshotted to the canvas if you select another tool, or if you use the snapshot function.

In the Marker Palette, select which of your object’s attributes you would like the Marker to remember. This must be done before placing a Marker.

To place a Marker, click on the ‘M+’ button in the Transform or Floating Palette or press the ‘M’ key on your keyboard.

Place a Marker for each object that you want to be able to re-edit.

To re-edit an object that has been marked, click on the dot that appears in the center of the object when you hold your mouse over it, then enter edit mode.

If you wish to combine multiple marked objects, you can use the Multi-Marker Tool. Select the Multi-Marker Tool from the Tool Palette, then click and drag on your canvas to your desired size.

This will use all marked objects, so make sure to delete any Markers for Tools that you don’t want included in your Multi-Marker Object before selecting the Multi-Marker Tool. You can delete a Marker for an object by pressing the ‘M-’ button while that object is selected.

While using the Multi-Marker Tool, you can use draw, move, scale and rotate, but not edit.

To edit the combined mesh of the objects that you have joined with the Multi-Marker Tool, the Tools must be converted into a Polymesh. This is done by clicking on ‘Make Polymesh’ in the Tools:Modifiers SubPalette while the MultiMarker Tool is selected.

Once you make a Polymesh, click on the new combined mesh that has appeared in your TOOL Palette. It will originally be named ‘Composite Mesh01’. Make sure to use the ‘Save As’ command in the TOOL:Inventory SubPalette immediatly to avoid losing your work.

Click and drag on the canvas to place your Composite Mesh object, and edit enter mode to edit it as you would any other object.

Have Fun!

-ZuZu :slight_smile:

Thank you very much! :slight_smile:

As a long-time Photoshop user, ZBrush seems counter-intuitive in many ways. Of course, the more powerful the software, the steeper the learning curve.

I visited the ZBrush Forum and after only a few searches found some very helpful info. You’ve got great resources here.

TTYS.

–Thunderwatch

Hi Zuzu, first off I want to mention how great I think Zbrush is, so much so that I wanted to buy it right there and then, on Sunday even though I had almost not played with the Demo. There was just this tiny little thing that was bothering me and I needed to figure it out first. It obviously it has to do with this topic, the possiblity of re-editing 3D objects.

Just to give you a quick rundown, Im a Technical Director/ 3D animator/ Video editor/ IT Director. I’m not saying this to show off, I’m saying this to emphazyse that even though I’ve seen a lot of things and a lot of software, Zbrush really caught my attention.

This software is marketed as being a 2.5D software, Yet, obviously, you do have some great 3D modeling features, which one could easily argue is what make your software so great. Modeling a head of a character is a snap and a joy with Zbrush. Without these tools Zbrush would just be a fancy paint program, the possibility to model in an artistic and natural way is what makes this software unique. Now an artist can model anything he wants without the need to learn to model in a complicated 3D package. Yet what I dont understand, is that even though you have these amazing tools, you decided to make these feature limited. I dont see any reason why ZBrush should be just a 2.5D software, it just limits what it could become. Imagine sculpting a high detail face, then because of the high numers of polygon the objects has, I would need to smooth out some parts of the cheeks, no problems I’ll just use the smudge tool, I need to do horns, no problem I’ll just turn the model in the right position and use the SnakeHookBrush. I need to work on the nose, no problem I just go back in edit mode and continue, but every other modification I did would stick. I would not need to make markers and repaste an unfixed copy of the object. I could just use a select cursor and click on the different objects in my drawing and do what I want to them, using ANY of the tools. Every element should be treated as 3D, I drew something with the SimpleBrush and I want to modify or distort it, no problem, just use the select cursor, clik on the stroke I want to modify and go in edit mode.

These are features I’ve seen from other tools I’ve used, so I’m a bit of a spoiled brat I guess :smiley: It just would seem to make ZBrush an even more powerful tool than it already is. One that I could easily see myself using in production, for modeling characters for 3D animations. While still remaining a immensely powerful “paint” software.

>>>Continues in this thread

My own 2 cents:

There are several very specific reasons why things are the way that they are in ZBrush. First off, ZBrush doesn’t behave like a 3D animation program because it’s NOT a 3D animation program. It’s a 2.5D paint program – bridging the gap between 2D and 3D with properties common to both and others that are unique to ZBrush.

Here’s the catch: when an object is snapshot, it no longer is made up of polygons. Instead, it is turned completely into “pixols” – these smart pixels record not only the color, but also material, depth, orientation, etc. This allows several interesting things to happen. First off, it allows ZBrush to operate in true real time rendering without you having to have some kind of supercomputer. Once an object is snapshot to the canvas, ZBrush no longer has to worry very much about the hidden faces. All it cares about is making what’s visible look as good as possible. The second advantage is that once the object has become pixols, you can now use all of the other 2D and 2.5D tools to paint more detail into your scene.

It’s these additional tools that give ZBrush scenes such amazing quality compared to other 3D programs. The rest rely on textures and lighting because if something doesn’t have geometry in a 3D app, it doesn’t exist. What ZBrush does is to allow you to take the scene even further, painting additional detail into the scene like a 2D program but doing so with the depth of a 3D program.

All of which brings us back to the fundamental hurdle; the fact that once snapshot it is very awkward to try and pick an object up again. Imagine this: you snapshot a sphere to the canvas and then use the Cone3D to add spikes to it. Next, you use other 2D and 2.5D tools to add additional details to this spiked ball. Now what would happen if you were to pick the initial sphere back up again? What’s the program supposed to do with all of that other stuff that you just painted on? It’s not a part of the geometry. It’s not a texture, either, since it has depth of its own. The processing power to move all of that other stuff in 3D while you work on the sphere some more would be horrendous – if your computer could even handle it, real time rendering would go right out the window.

So in the end, while it is inconvenient in some ways to try and get used to ZBrush’s unique way of doing things, those wacky methods are all there for a reason. They let ZBrush do what no other program can do. Along the way, they also happen to really benefit other programs (such as by making it easy to create morph targets, textures, or original 3D models). They also allow ZBrush to be a mighty fine rendering engine all by itself. And, of course, everything works together beautifully to allow artists to create amazingly detailed and realistic scenes from start to finish in ZBrush in far less time that it would require in another app.

It’s just a matter of “unlearning” a few techniques and thinking in a new way…

The particular approach that will work best for you depends upon what you’re trying to do.

If you wish to create a scene in ZBrush, the most common method is to create each of your main objects separately and place them on different layers. If you have a LOT of objects, then you can put multiple objects on the same layer so long as they don’t intersect with each other. When placing objects, remember to use the Transform palette gyros (move, scale and rotate) to position them as precisely as you want. Before you move on to the next object, place a marker (Transform>Make Marker). If you get part way through and realize that you need to change an object – whether it’s a matter of doing more modeling on it or changing its position – you can go to the layer that it’s on and clear that layer with Ctrl+N (or use the eraser brush on the object if there are other objects on the same layer). If you move your cursor back to the center of where the object had been, a funny-looking dot appears. This is your marker. Select the object again in the Tool palette (because when ZBrush snapshots one to the canvas, the original remains in the palette), and then click on the marker to redraw the object in exactly the same position, scale and orientation that it had been when you placed the marker. You can then use the Transform palette on it again to move it or model it some more. Only after all of your major objects are placed to satisfaction would you change to using your other tools and painting the details into your scene.

Now, if you wish to build a mesh for use in another program you can use an approach similar to this. Don’t worry about the multiple layers. Instead, model each of the pieces that will make up your complex mesh and choose the object’s longest axis to work from. As you place your pieces, be careful to keep them rotated along that axis (you can use Transform>Rotate and then with the gyro showing go to Transform>Info and type axial values directly into the sliders to get perfect orientation with ease). Place a marker for every piece as you go. Use the Scale and Move gyros to get their placement as precise as possible. Next, clear the canvas and select the MultipleMarker tool. Drag on the canvas (being careful not to click a marker), and the complex object will be redrawn with all of the pieces active at once. You can now use the Rotate gyro on the group of them and still use Transform>Info to keep the rotations along an exact plane. In Edit mode, you can then move pieces around in relation to each other. But because you are keeping the object’s orientation controlled, it is very easy to reposition them in relation to each other. When you have everything placed the way you want it from all directions, go to Tool>Modifiers>Reposition followed by Tool>Modifiers>Make Polymesh. Incidentally, that Reposition button can be used at any time to move the markers to match the current position and orientation of the object. This is useful if you want to change a particular piece. Reposition the markers, leave Edit mode, clear the canvas, click the marker for the object that you want to get rid of and then Transform>Remove Marker. Now select or create your new object, place it and mark it, and then you can return to the MultipleMarker tool to continue working. When you Make Polymesh, the individual objects will be combined together as a new tool in the Tool palette. You can select that object and texture or otherwise modify it to your heart’s content. Or you can export it to another program. The individual parts will be given group names according to what they were named in the Tool palette before being incorporated into the mesh. (So if you want to create a model with specific group names, simply save each tool with the name that you want before you start using the markers.) Don’t like the sharp edges where pieces come together? With the model active on the canvas, press Tool>Inventory>Make Unified Skin to re-skin the object and smooth the edges. The catch with this is that if you do so, any texturing that you have done and the object groupings will be lost. On the other hand, you can use the sliders next to the Make Unified Skin button to take considerable control over the mesh that will be produced.

Sound like a lot of work to create a single model for use in another program? It is. Don’t get me wrong – the MM tool is still extremely useful in certain places, such as modeling many mechanical objects. Especially ones with clearly defined edges. But for organic full body meshes, nothing beats the ZSphere. Be sure to run the ZSphere ZScripts that come with ZBrush 1.5. They are VERY educational. A couple of tips, though:

  1. When working with ZSpheres, don’t forget to change your Draw Size to 1 (press S to bring the slider up where the cursor is so you don’t have to go to the palettes).
  2. Shift+F is the shortcut to turn on Polyframe viewing. This lets you see the mesh with the polygons – sort of a combination of gourad shading with wire frame, and very easy to work with.
  3. Preview your mesh without skinning it by pressing A
  4. When you make your mesh, Adaptive Skins are usually best for exporting to other programs. They create object groupings and also have a low enough poly count to not kill the other app.
  5. When you make your mesh, the ZSpheres remain active on the canvas. A new tool appears in your Tool palette, however, which is the skinned (and exportable) model. This lets you continue to work with the spheres to create a new pose or something before going back to the Tool palette and exporting all of your meshes.
  6. An advantage to the Adaptive skin is that models created using the same skinning settings can also share the same texture. This makes it handy to create multiple variations without having to texture every last one of them. And with the upcoming release of the bonus upgrade, Displacement mapping will be available to further add detail to these meshes without having to do more modeling. A single low poly mesh can be given infinite variations! Displacement Preview

Finally, a couple of very useful tutorials are available here:

QuickLinks for v1.51

I’d recommend starting with Newbie Lessons One and Two to get a quick feel for both the interface and how the palettes work together.

Hi there everyone J First of all … I know, I know it’s boring but I’d Like to say I really like ZBrush and the images that were created using ZBrush are just fascinating. In fact that was the first reason I decided to try out the demo. It’s pretty much easy to use and VERY fast but… I don’t know weather I’m dumber than I thought or It’s some sort of a bug, but can’t re-edit old 3D object. Don’t jump on me yet…Example: I create cylinder, I rotate it couple of times, and I mark it with M, pressing snapshot afterwards. And when I create a new object and I try to re-edit my old cylinder it doesn’t seem to work. Yes there is a dot in the center, Yes I click left mouse button on that dot and choose edit mode but … no luck

…So could anyone tell me what’s wrong? If it’s not much to ask please tell me in details (with buttons and mouse clicks) how to perform that operation. I would be VERY VERY VERY VERY glad J thank you in advance.

You would have to remove that object from the canvas, either by clearing the layer the object is on or pressing “undo” and then replace the object from the tool pallette using the marker for that object placed on the canvas. Now the object you just placed on the canvas is “live” and you can edit that object.

Try double clicking the marker also…

THANK YOU :smiley:

Hello!

this post is most informative, i was just wondering if the marker process described above will allow me to save a project, close ZBrush and continue to model the same 3D object at a later date?

thanks for your time

Neo

If you have saved each of the models before placing your markers, and then load the models again before using the MultipleMarker tool, yes. But why? You can save your tools as it is, and work on them more in future sessions.

Unless you have the demo. In which case all of your modeling must be done within one session. Markers will not help you.

Basically, the markers tell ZBrush which tool to draw. But that tool must be an object within the Tool palette first.

thanks aurick!

i have now figured out how to use the ‘save as’ in the tool palette AND how to use markers

thanks for the help :slight_smile:

I think this gets the prize as the #1 FAQ

maybe for some future version there could be a helpful pop-up that warns “your mesh is about to be converted to pixols and cannot be edited afterwards”

with buttons for continue and cancel and a checkbox for “show this warning again”

maybe also with a message that the modified tool is in the tool palette, so that it can be recreated if the layer is cleared

that is a brilliant idead havran!

the checkbox especially for those who have been using the program and know what is going to happen and when, and the popup for users like myself who are still floundering around with all thumbs in the program

Okay - sounds like many of us “newbies” are having the same problems understanding exactly “how” ZBrush operates - or at least how to properly operate and access the ZBrush toolset.

I too and completely impressed with the work of the ZBrush artists and online image galleries - I mean WOW!

Anyway - here’s my “newbie” question:

I want to use the Toroids in the shapes library to create a “chain link” ( 2 or more toroids linked together forming a chain).

I’m thinking that this would be simple to do - but, like so many others on this forum, I noticed that as soon as I add the 2nd toroid, ZBrush loses it’s ability to “remember” that the first Toroid is a 3D object - (I understand that it’s been converted to 2.5D Pixols).

I only have the “demo” version currently.

Is there a way for me to continue to add additional toroids - while still being able to “edit” any of the earlier toroids?

Of course I would want the first toroid to act as the “parent” 3D object and all others to “follow” the parent. :qu: :qu: :wink:

Hey Mr. Midi… :slight_smile:
Place the first toroid, then use the snapshot button, which will produce a copy you can move, and rotate into position…It looks like a little camera…
You should draw the toroid, go into ‘Edit’ mode, then snapshot…

Of course, you can use the Editing mode first, as well as the other tools to do one link as a custom piece, modifying it with masking, inflation or whatever…Even though you only have the demo, you will have the modified link in your toolbox, while you are working…Then you would start your chain.
Hope this helps a bit…

(And Welcome to the Forum… :cool: )