ZBrushCentral

Voxels, Volumetric Sculpting

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#1

Hi, I’ve been a dedicated Zbrush user since the day version 2 was first released…It was like the modeling Gods finally had mercy on poly pushers when the ability to brush on millions of polys became possible…now…I appreciate that ability still,…but one thing that has always been troubling, was that within Zbrush you mostly were locked into the shell of geometry that constituted your base mesh; this just meant a lot of pre-planning or bouncing in an out of another package like Maya,…which just discouraged a lot of creating in one package…

I recently tried the latest version of this program 3d Coat (the new alpha)…and it introduces (I know it isn’t the first, Sensible Technologies had something similar) voxel sculpting…check it out at this link here:

http://www.3d-coat.com/v3_voxel_sculpting.html

basically you can branch out, mush and merge seperate pieces, and cut holes in a way that you can’t with traditional poly’s, and currently cannot do in Zbrush…its pretty bizzare, but you can literaly just paint strips of geometry in mid air and join them together like clay;

Now I’m certainly not here to promote another package on a Zbrush website; because this package just lacks the sculpting sophistication, brushes, ect that Zbrush has, I don’t feel compelled to use it instead, rather I wanted to bring it to the attention of the guys at Pixologic and ask that they might consider investigating this kind of technology for a future release of Zbrush…I believe digital sculpting HAS to go some direction like this,…we cannot continue to be locked to one model,…eventually there needs to be a way to propogate form and create with one package and without much complicated steps (at least in achieving initial form,…sure for export to another package retopo is neccessary)…

I know there are problems and complications with voxels, one being that it requires a uniform res for the mesh…perhaps there can be a voxel sculpting tool for blocking in basic/mid level form, and then an option to bake it to polys for more detail work,…I’m not really qualified to trouble shoot the technical difficulties, but there seems like a lot of opportunity if it were thoroughly looked into…

anyways, I’m curious to hear people’s thoughts on this,

-J

#2

I just posted a topic like this on the Zbrush4 wish list. If Zbrush had a brush that painted on additional geometry it would save people from subdividing their mesh just to get extra polys in one area. I am not a fan of local subdivision as it leaves nasty seams. I also agree that Zbrush is better than 3D Coat. In fact, I’ve tried using 3D coat and it runs extremely slow on my computer with simple models. Zbrush runs fast and I am able to create complicated models fairly quick. :+1:

#3

I’m sure they’ve never heard of voxels or 3dcoat :stuck_out_tongue:

Sorry could not resist. In all seriousness the future is probably something along the lines of 3D acceleration dying and polygonal models dying and both being replaced by something more like Carmack’s sparse voxel tree ray tracer.

The more detailed you get, the more triangles start to suck ie they have huge file sizes. Voxels on the other hand can be stored very efficiently. On older hardware it was just not as feasible to do ray tracing and renderers like that on older hardware were also something not many people could do.

Hence 3D acceleration, which made a higher level API that just did the low level part for you. Now we have graphics cards with 400+ cores and the move is towards making generalized instructions, because it’s just too hard to make the crazy hardware and software drivers. And expensive.

Instead we will probably get raytracers (such as larrabee) and once we get that then triangles stop making sense any more so we will have voxels instead. Not just for rendering any more but also how we store our files. Also, the files will use materials like a software renderer of today (these are all ray tracers) so the burden of making artwork for 3D games especially will be dramatically reduced.

The 3D coat guy seems amazingly smart, but I am not sure one loan programmer can power through The Next Big Thing all by himself, especially as much larger companies like autodesk can sort of strongarm the whole market instead of just making a product and hoping the stars line up in such a way as to make it a big success. Considering how fast he seems to work, he might start nipping at the heels of mudbox and zbrush very soon, though.

#4

I think voxels are a great way to achieve volume quickly and intuitively, but I must say the Polys will never die, when used properly they are very efficient.
I could see blocking out masses with voxels and then retopoing them which is what I think folks are doing.

#5

There just won’t be any point to use triangles any more if you go to raytracers. The whole point is that efficiency is no longer so much of an issue. Efficieny of labor is much more important. Retopoing and creating lots of maps is a huge time waster. I spend about 90% of my time with art doing things that have very little to do with artistry.

If you eliminate triangles, that reverses. Also, the more triangles you get the more unwieldly the model. Not just for working with yourself but for processing on the machine. 20k poly model is a ton of work to make adjustments on.

#6

I can agree, especially for organic modelling, but i wonder if polygons are still more practical for hardsurface, mechanics, architecture ? I don’t see traditional modelling disappear anytime soon. however voxel sculpting is great! i’m all for it.

#7

Oh yes, VOXEL sculpting is the way to go IMHO !

ZBrush would be unmatched with the following workflow:
1 create base mesh with ZSpheres
2 convert to VOXELS and sculpt general form with voxels
2 retopo (with better retopo tools than currently available)
3 sculpt finer detail on retopoed mesh (which ZBrush already does greatly)

When you see what’s possible with voxels in 3DCoat, then surely Pixologic can not longer ignore this!?

Unfortunately : I’ve searched the 3DCoat forum and IMO 3DCoat still is too buggy.
So I hope that

  1. Pixologic introduces something like that, OR
  2. 3DCoat becomes a stable and mature app.
    If 2) comes true before 1) then I won’t even bother with ZBrush anymore which would be a pity …
#8

My main concerns with voxels is that while you can create a model rapidly, you’re then left with no no choice but to retopo it. So the initial speed gain of voxels is ultimately lost. I feel I could create a game engine asset quicker in ZBrush because I’m not forced to retopo. And because of subdivision based modeling I’m given a free set of LODs too.

Voxels will definitely be great for the less geeky folk that don’t want to fiddle with meshes and topology. 2D illustrators don’t need to care too much about the underlying topology.

#9

dude free lods from sub levels ? No retopo ? Do you seriosly make good game models or just throw out half assed stuff ? You waste so many tris using subdivisions as lods its crazy, also a retopo is a must for a good model for animation.
Anyway 3d coat is far more adwanced and better than zbrush as a softwere, but its just to early for it, its just to slow even on the simplst models, also the lack of polygons makes it asy to destroy your model and merge two separte objects you dont want to.

#10

I make the best game models in the business! :mad:

You can check out my latest work here

I’m a pro dammit!! :mad:

#11

Guys , … , please … , no fighting :lol: …

Of course, it would be great if voxels were addded into ZBrush as an option, but an option that you choose so that those who don’t need them aren’t forced to use them, and those who do want them can use them.

It’s not because some users do not need retopoing that everybody can live without, no ?

Anyway, I’ve been testing 3DCoat for the past couple of hours and stability seems to be great so far.
Voxel sculpting is great and retopoing is in my experience the best I’ve ever encountered compared to Modo and even ZBrush.

#12

leet pong!

#13

All voxels do is give you more creative freedom on the fly.
Its like 2d concepting but in 3d. It wont be replacement ,but should be addition to the zbrush tools.

Plus only one guy is making this program and already has half tools zbrush has. To be in competition with zbrush now that is really something exceptional on his part.

#14

I tried my hand on the retopo and the Voxel, and find it rather disappointing

The Voxel is too intuitively slow.

As for the retopo, it’s good and all, but I can’t make full sculpt in ZBrush and use retopo while retaining the HiRes Mesh.

So, the best workflow I could find is

Create mid res with ZSphere
Retopo in 3DC
Sculpt find details in ZBrush

I haven’t tried out the texturing functions though.
Could anyone brief me on how it goes?

#15

@Kravit : you’re abolutely right !

@Zenneth : you’re partly right : sculpting the general form is easier with voxels : I’ve created a complete figure (fingers and toes and all) starting from only 1 sphere !
And yes : for the detailing ZBrush is unmatched !
BTW : I’ve experienced no slowdown in 3DC, not during sculpting and not during retopoing.
I’m on XP 64 bit and I’ve encountered no problems so far.
But if you read the 3DC forums, yes there are other people complaining about speed issues.
All the more reason for Pixologic to add voxels to ZBrush !

Happy sculpting …

#16

I dont really think voxels are needed just yet.
Let 3dcoat work on the voxels and let pixologic steal the concept pnce its advanced more.
GoZ and the ability to add and take are a perfect voxel workflow with much greater control.
I just cant wait to build cars on human heads ^^

#17

Disco Stu, you might be on to something here …

I’m on Windows, so I haven’t had a change yet to test GoZ and hadn’t thought of it anymore …

I hope that with GoZ and Modo I have all the necessary tools I need, so I’m definately going to wait for GoZ before purchasing yet another application.

Thanks for the reminder :+1:.

#18

My prayers have come true, … , I almost can not believe it : ----->

ZSPHERES TWO :eek:

Sculpting with ZSpheres !

#19

THAT’S EVEN BETTER THAN VOXEL!!!

…RETOPO…Is there a NEW + BETTER RETOPO system???

#20

I have tried 3d-coat latest version, and let me tell you, zbrush 4 HAS TO HAVE VOXELS and a all re-engineered interface, or it will be doomed… :wink:

Not only modeling voxels is amazing, the texturing tools in 3d-coat are all of you ever desired.

also if you are lazy to retop manually you have a option called “quadrangulate” that makes retopo for you, you can make adjusts manually too. This is great for making game assets (lowpoly).

automatically are created uv coordinates (that once again, you can tweak manually). and they are very similar to what you get when you create uv’s using a unwraping tools, great!

moreover export to 3dsmax the lowpoly with normal map, diffuse, specular was cuestion of 2 seconds!!! (you can export normal maps to maya and light wave too!)

give it a try before you talk!!! :evil:
, at least give a read to the manual: http://www.3d-coat.com/files/manual_pdf/3dcoat-manual.pdf

finally the interface rocks!!!, very intuitive and with proffuse contextual help text.

Cheers

:+1: