Sam WIP

[system]

Hello!

This is my first post on this forum so I thought that I should introduce myself. My name is Karolina, I’m 25 years old and currently trying to complete my portfolio as a Character Designer/Artist. I was participating on a different 3D forum before but it looks like everyone stopped using it and I didn’t receive any replies so far. That’s why, here I am

Although I’m a bit scared of your opinion, I would like to share with you this project on which I’m working right now. This is meant to be a cybepunk inspired character, called Sam (Samantha), who is a detective from nanodrugs department. I want to sculpt her in a scene, where she is about to enter a future night club, dressed up as a girl who is working there to catch some bad guys. I know it sounds funny, bo well…that’s just my weird imagination. So far, I’ve sculpted her body, which I’m gonna refine later and of course add details to it, after some posing. Also I’ve designed her clothes. I was mostly using 3Ds Max and ZBrush. I know I have a lot work to do and that’s why I would like some critique or advice, also tutorial recommendation. This is my first, fully dressed character and I still don’t know: how to sculpt materials naturally, as now her clothes are very stiff or which metod is the best for a begginer to create hair. Furthermore, if you have any suggestions about anatomy proportions, besides her ears or checkbones, which I’m gonna fix today, I would be very, very grateful

Ok, so these are test renders (better resolution):
http://i.imgur.com/XLZGaMv.png
http://i.imgur.com/cONRgkh.png
http://i.imgur.com/dFxePry.png
http://i.imgur.com/epSg31A.png
http://i.imgur.com/9XhXzGZ.png

And here are ZBrush images:
http://imgur.com/a/0ZtEc

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[Vir_Norin]

Hello!
You are doing well, especially considering this is your first serious character. Don’t be afraid sharing with us the story you gave her. Because characters with story and biography are awesome. Unfortunately, most of the works I see on this forum are whether simple practices or yet another fan-art to popular superhero. That’s why, IMHO, well thought and original characters will always stand out. At least for me.
BTW this forum is also almost dead. Meaning that people still upload their renders but mostly don’t talk. So there are just minimal chances for beginner to receive constructive critiques. Which is sad.

So coming back to your character. Right now I see a lot of room for improvement in terms of anatomy but to give you comprehensive reply I need renders of her without clothes. Preferably those made in Zbrush - the material on images above is kinda too translucent (or is it due to the flat lighting?) and it is hard to judge about the shape. But I must warn you that I will describe anatomy with proper greek/latin names so if you are not into them you will be forced to google some tricky names.

But I already can say that head appears too elongated. Mainly due to the big eyes (not sure if she is stylized or not) and also because the cranium (back of the skull) is too narrow. Usually in front view (without perspective) the distance from the lateral (outer) eye corner to widest point of the skull (parietal eminences) is also one eye length. The ears are pressed against the head too much but you have already mentioned this.

Hard to judge when boots are on, but the lower leg lacks some gesture. And overall the boot appears too symmetrical as if she wearing two left or right pairs. The legs aren’t just tapered cylinders - they have numerous counter-curves resulting in beautiful gesture. Except for boots , which are the weakest part of the clothes, I really dig the futuristic design.

Also, I suggest to put at least very primitive eyebrows. Just paint them or maybe do a simple one with fibermesh. Because the eyebrows are crucial in perceiving human face and without them people look really odd. If you don’t believe me - just google “Celebrities without eyebrows” and you will immediately get what I mean. I personally have a golden rule to not show my models with no brow hairs.

I hope it was somewhat useful and wish you good luck!

[system]

Thank you so much for your reply! :3

Today I’ve fixed her ears and checkbones and here you can judge overall anatomy. As you can see, I didn’t sculpt her feet because I’ve thought that they won’t be visible anyway. I know that her clothes and shoes look bad, but I hope that with your guidance I will make them look more natural. And if I’ve understood correct, should I redesign the shoes? I’m going to add some asymmetry to this model after I will do the posing. Also I need to sculpt some mechanical elements (neurotransmitters) on her right arm, which I am the most afraid of. For now, I just want to fix any issues.

You can use any terms in your feedback. I will try to understand everything the best I can

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[Vir_Norin]

OK, now I can see the anatomy better.
First of all let me ask you what type of female you are trying to sculpt? Are you striving for strong and muscular female or rather feminine and lean? Cause right now her body is somewhere in the middle: she has very long heroic torso (meaning she must be very tall), heavy bone structure but surprisingly weak muscle development. Knowing your goals will help me to give you proper advices.
Right now the torso looks a bit too massive. Partially because a tiny head, but also because of slight vertical stretching - the third and fourth head marks (navel and crotch) are placed lover than usual. I think that simple scaling up of the head will mostly resolve the issue. This will also make the shoulders and waist appear thinner which also helps adding feminine look. But hey, if she supposed to be strong and massive then forget my previous words. Regardless, her thighs look a bit short and legs appear thin, especially below the knee where they taper too much. Also she has a massive ribcage. Usually it is very rare when females have ribcage wider than Iliac crests (upper bone of the pelvis). Even in female bodybuilders.

In terms of posture - her arms and shoulder look odd. It appears as if she is pushing her shoulders back, thrusting the breast forward. If this pose was intentional then you must accomodate it with proper muscle changes around the scapula (bring your own shoulder blades together and feel the big amount of muscle bunching between them). If not intentional, then I think her shoulders and arms can be shifted slightly forward - usually in side view you can still see a portion of back, particularly the scapulas.
Overall I think that curvature in spine is a bit extreeme. I am judging by the angle of ribcage in side view. However the arm is partially blocking the silhouette so I’m not sure. Plus personally I also often exagerrate female lordosis so I like what you have there. But I’m writing this mainly because of the angle of pectoral muscles (the line from armpit in side view) and how they flow into the breast. In your sculpt they create almost continuous line which means that breasts are located too forward. This is probably not postural but rather constructional problem. Basically, the front plane of the ribcage isn’t exactly a flat plane - the ribs connect to sternum at slight angle. As a result the breasts are situated not only in front of the ribcage, but also to the sides. So they are kinda enveloping pectoral muscles, often shooting special fatty tail towards the armpit.

So let’s talk now about anatomy.

• The armpits. The armpit has anterior and posterior walls (front and back respectively). The front wall is created by Pectoralis major and situated higher than back one, created by teres Major and Latissimus dorsi muscles. In your sculpt this walls are too high and looks like at the same level. Shift them slightly down. The best way to check it is to trace the topmost belly of the chest muscle from origin to insertion. It goes from the inner half of collar bone (clavicle) to almost the middle of the Humerus (arm bone), diving under the Deltoid muscle. If you try drawing this line on your sculpt you will notice that line will go through the air just below the armpit, meaning that you have empty space in area where the muscle should be.
• The outer profile of the arm is kinda too straight. If she is supposed to be muscular than most likely you will have a prominent dip where the Deltoid inserts to the middle of the humerus.
• The biceps of the arm looks a bit elongated. partially because the lack of pectoral muscle mass on top of it. Plus in side view it has a boring straight contour gradually blending with forearm. In real life and for artistic purposes it is better to give it’s bottom part (right above the elbow level) more distinct plane describing the end of the muscle. This way the profile looks more interesting.
• Suggest at least slightly the triceps. If she is strong enough then most likely she will get this distinct horseshoe shape created by common tendon. If you want more feminine look, then you might think about adding posterior deltoid fat pad. Regardless, play more with volumes here cause now in side view the sides of the arm look too parallel. Usually arm is getting slightly wider on top, especially in standing position when they are pressed against the body.
• The scapulas. Actually one of the hardest topics in anatomy, so I will not be too critical. Spread them apart more - they are too close now. Make sure that from upper view you have four disticnt planes: two for shoulder blades oriented outward and two inbetween towards the vertebral column (this planes are called Rhomboid planes by muscles in this area). Together from upper view this four planes create stretched “W”. Pay special attention to Rhomboids muscles. They are almost completely covered by Trapezius muscle so it is easy to miss them on anatomical diagrams. But they are responsible for most of the volume since Trapezius is rather thin here. Similarly with Serratus anterior muscle. You probably know this distinct tooth shaped muscles on the side of ribcage (you actually miss this muscle completely). But the most interesting part is that Serratus originates from medial (inner) border of the scapula so you can see a lot of the volume of Serratus from the back view right underneath Latissimus. This is also something you should know since many anatomical diagrams don’t show this.
• The bum is very stretched due to the badly constucted sacral triangle. This triangle is created by dimples of the bac and top part of the cleft between butt-cheeks. In your case this triangle is too squashed from sides causing bum to look very tall. Keep in mind that many females have less prominent spine erectors so this trianggle transforms into something called Rhombus of Michaelis. Just google it to see better what I mean.
• In front view you miss two important fat pads. One is bulging right below the navel. The second is called the Mons Pubis (or Mound of Venus) right above the genitals. It is actually a matter of taste and some very skinny and well fit girls sitting on special diet might not have it but usually this pads are present, giving very feminine and sexy look.
• The configuration of costal cartilages is quite odd. It appears like seventh and eight pairs are coming straight down and only then diverge into costal arch. Though maybe you had a reason to do like that. But usually the angle in female costal arch is 60-65 degrees.
• The cubital angle (between arm and forearm) is too prominent. Especially considering that forearm is in half-pronated position (palm inside). During pronation this angle diminishes.
• Work more on hands. They lack gesture right now.
• The form of the flank pad of External oblique muscle looks strange - very thin.

There are more places that should be adressed but for now it would be enough what I’ve said. Feel free to ask me if something is not clear to you. I will try to illustrate my point better with images. Hope it helps. Good luck.

[system]

Oh wow…that’s a lot work to do. I only regret that I didn’t post this before I’ve created clothes but ok, I will manage somehow. First of all, I’m very grateful for your professional opinion. It is sometimes unclear for me, but we will get to it later. For now, because I consider myself even bigger newbie than before, I would like to fix every issue one by one and then consult changes with you, if you don’t mind of course. So firstly, I will scale her head and thighs and I will upload screenshots from ZBrush tommorow. If this isn’t bothersome for you I will wait for your reply so I will be sure that I can uncheck things from this big TODO list.

“First of all let me ask you what type of female you are trying to sculpt? Are you striving for strong and muscular female or rather feminine and lean?”
I want her to look feminine but yet as suitable for a police officer - strong and fit, without big muscles. Just healthy and sexy.

[Vir_Norin]

You are welcome! Yeah, this might be sad when you made the clothing and then realize that underlying anatomy must be changed. I know it by itself: I did a full character with complete clothing and even four types of panties but right now I figured out that her bum must be changed which means that all the clothes should be reworked as well. So I’m sharing your pain.
The most important thing - don’t rush. Remember that you are still learning so it is OK to spend additional time understanding anatomy. Cause this is pretty much the most important thing when making characters. Even if this will take you days, weeks, months… hell, people learn anatomy all their life .
Yes, concentrate more on proportions first. When they are done properly then half of a job is completed. I said to change proportions (head, thighs), but it not that simple to do like masking a head and making it bigger. Everything in body is related so be ready that it will take you back and forth, forcing to revisit pretty much entire body part until all proportions and gesture will look pleasing. Do you have any particular reference for your character? Since you are still a beginner I recommend working more from reference rather than from imagination. Previously I did a couple of reference sheets for several important body parts. This particular image will help you to pick similar body type and study its proportions. You can navigate through my Scrapbook and hopefully some images will help in case you stuck.
In most cases when you cannot understand about what muscles I am talking about it helps just to google its name. Google usually finds pretty good and clear diagrams. But don’t hesitate to ask me.

[system]

Thank you. Unfortunatelly I’ve got sick today but I will start working on her proportions as soon as I get better I know I should not rush with sculpting but well…I have been working on this character for over 4 months…which is sad, especially for my carrier ;d I feel like I’m just too slow with everything :< I hope this is normal for your first 3D character.

[Vir_Norin]

I hope you get well soon.
I know this feel too - I work so slow as well. But in my case I have specific reasons. In your case - don’t worry, it will come with practice. With time you will expand mental vocabulary of forms and sculpting will become more fast and fluid.

[system]

Oh that’s a relief. I thought that I would be slow forever. Now I’m even more motivated ^^

[system]

Ok, small update.

I’ve changed her proportions a bit, so her head is much bigger now. Also I’ve moved her arms forward and I’ve tried to fix some muscles in that area, especially on her neck and back. Furthermore I’ve changed her face proportions as well. I’m not sure if I did it right…because I think that she looks weird now ;p Maybe that’s because I was trying to match the topology to my original reference. Anyway, I’m looking forward to your critique ^^’

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[Vir_Norin]

Oh, I wrote a big message but for some reason the page refreshed and everything was erased.
Sorry, I will post it later. For now you can just watch my paint overs. Maybe you will get what I’ve meant so I wouldn’t be forced to write it again.
But if speaking in short.

• The breast looks better now and flows much nicely into the torso.
• Make proper construction of armpit and areas around. Look at this paint over I did. See how portion of chest muscle shaded with solid red goes nicely from clavicle to upper third of the arm. In your example the muscle flow interrupts with empty space.
• The arms still might be pushed more forward (see some examples below)
• Here you can see what I was talking about about the height of armpit walls. Notice on the model how in front it is shorter than on back. Sometimes you might get creases on the back view that visually decrease the height but don’t let it confuse you.
• I really don’t recommend just trace over the reference photo. You should learn to see forms and mistakes without guides. It will give you huge benefits later. Plus most of the times simple tracing might be destructive. The perspective distortions or slight tilt of the real model can seriously mislead you.
• Better use render of 3D scans to judge forms and proportions. Here is my examples. One, two, three, four, five.
• Her bum is still too tall. Have you used my references I posted before?
• Give more mass to the lower legs.
• Pay special attention to model’s profile. maybe switch to flat material and study just the silhouette. For example the contours of inner thighs are wrong. This dip between adductor’s mass and volume of Vastus Medialis shouldn’t be that low.

I hope that helps.

[system]

Thank you! I will dig into this for sure. I didn’t work on her armpits or legs yet. I was just trying to fix her proportions a little. But now, if her proportions are fine I will make the changes you’ve mentioned and I will post the results soon So to make things clear - is her head okay now? Not too small or not too big? And what about her neck or face, because I’ve refined that areas the most.

[Vir_Norin]

Yeah, lets consider the head is proportionally good for now. There are obviously problems in the head itself but in relation to body it is more realistic. You just need to make proper shoulders (acromion plane and its transition to deltoid) since in portrait render shoulders (its bony part, not fleshy) appear slightly narrow. Overall the proportions is that kind of thing that requires constant revision. So be prepared that after introducing some changes to anatomy you will notice that proportions must be fixed as well. That’s all the part of one big puzzle and sometimes it is hard to see one particular problem when previous one is not fixed.

Yes, I see you changed the neck area. The neck is slightly shorter now while the distance from clavicles to nipples is increased. It is all the matter of personal preferences. But I would shift them slightly down (the medial portion where also the pit of the neck is placed). This will make the neck appear longer and introduce slight angle to collar bones, giving them more interesting and feminine look.

[system]

Another update!

I haven’t post any progress lately because I had my master’s degree exam and I’ve focused on that. But now, I only have some minor school projects to do, so I can sculpt this model freely. I’ve changed the armpit area, her waist, legs and basically everything. I hope it looks better now. I’ve been looking at many references and guides while sculpting but I guess, that practice is the most important. Here are the results

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[Vir_Norin]

Hi! No worries.
Yes, the front looks much better. There are still places that should be polished more but for now I suggest to concentrate more on the back. Here is the over paint. I think that most important points are mentioned on the image so right now have nothing to add. Ah… yeah, it appears like your clavicles are just a straight bars. In reality they have a slight S curve so both collar bones (when you look at them from above) form a bow or bicycle wheel.
Good luck!
PS In case you never heard about Erector Spinae muscles you might be confused by what I have drawn on over paint. To clarify it: while on drawing the red for ES stops below the Trapezius, in reality this two columns extend much higher, diving underneath the Trapezius. So the visual border of muscle in drawing is not the real end of Erector.

[system]

Thank you for your reply I will focus on her back now

[system]

Another update

I’ve tried to fix everything you mentioned Vir Norin and if these changes looks good I’m ready for another critique ^^

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[Vir_Norin]

Hi!
Sorry, right now I have serious problems with hands and cannot hold a pen to make an over paint. I will try to describe most important problems verbally.

• In last image (7th) her rib-cage appears too wide. Look at the right profile under her left breast - ribs shouldn’t protrude that much. They shouldn’t be that barrel-like in females.
• Her bum still appears too tall. The volumes right below and to the sides of dimples should be reduced. The delineation of Sacral triangle or Rhombus of Michaelis should be more faint. The actual rhombus might be even more convex in your sculpt.
• The waist line (5th image) in back view. The area of plane change in silhouette where mass of the ribcage meets the mass of the pelvis - the thinnest part in the torso. It should be placed higher.
• Smooth the lower border of the rear deltoid - it shouldn’t be that prominent in relaxed position.
  Here are some examples from my works to illustrate my points better. In this image the girl is pictured in similar angle as in your 7th image. Study the silhouette of the ribs below the breast and try imagining how the entire mass of rib-cage flows up to the shoulder girdle. And in this image the angle is close to your in 5th image. Notice how females have a higher waist (one of the distinct difference to male). Sure my character is more delicate and slightly stylized but all the rules I mentioned are still valuable.
  If you are tired and cannot see mistakes - probably take a rest or concentrate on another part of your model. maybe work more on the face. Right now I can say it looks a bit flat and requires more depth. Just google “Face planes” to find lots of useful images. Most important - notice this diagonal line that goes from zygomatic bone to the corner of the mouth. Compare the acuteness to the same line in your sculpt and you will realize how flat it is. So basically your lower half of the face (bottom of the nose, mouth and chin) should be pushed forward.
  I hope that helps! Good luck.

[system]

Oh, that’s unfortunate to hear. I hope your hands will get better. Also I’m sorry that you have to tutor me that much. I wish I could see better my mistakes and sculpts everything properly.
Anyway, thank you again I will work on her silhouette more and I will fix her face.

[system]

Ok, I was studying her proportions and I’ve done some tests. I don’t know why her “proportional” legs and arms look so long. Maybe I’m doing something wrong? ;/ Anyway, should I leave as it is, I mean this “proportional-correct” (via head lenght) version or should I work on the original. I will upload final changes of her silhouette tommorow as I haven’t fixed her deltoid muscle and face yet.

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