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Pixologic Announcement - The Roadmap to ZBrush 2.5

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#381

It’s an unfortunate situation, but I honestly think we forced them into this position. More detail on that here, or you can just read the thread we’re in now from start to finish and probably reach the same conclusion. :frowning:

(I’m APLevitz on that forum, and I join the conversation about halfway down. Everything from there on is discussing the very point you just made)

Your frustration is shared, and justified. And I’m sure everyone at Pixologic is just as anxious to spill the beans as we are to hear about it. But they’ve learned the hard way that it’s a bad idea.

Do read that other thread, but for the sake of saying something new, let’s reduce the scale, try to relate in more human terms…

I do a lot of freelance work, and the one thing most likely to make me miss a deadline is having to assure the client again and again that everything’s going smoothly. Particularly if a problem comes up, and I’m in the midst of troubleshooting when they call. They’ll never get off the phone until they’re satisfied that the problem is solved, and it won’t be solved until they give me some space to concentrate. So, while I know this doesn’t endear me to my clients, I don’t think twice about hanging up on them anymore. Sometimes it’s necessary to put up that wall.

We’ve all been in similar situations, have we not? Now imagine for a moment that instead of one frantic client, you have many thousands of people to answer to, and that they have conflicting agendas.

It must be terribly overwhelming…

#382

Simpler human terms.

Passenger.
Need to get to town, Don’t know when the bus is coming, Do I wait or walk?

Driver.
I’m getting there as fast as I can, there’s a roadblock, traffic’s backed everyone up.

Solipsist Passenger.
Damn bus companys, I mean I need to get my hair done!

Bus company.
What can we do… put a transponder in the bus? Sorry, not gonna happen.

You can decide for yourself what a Zen Master would say.

#383

I don’t know if anyone followed the jahshaka project (opensource). But they made the same mistake as pixologic did (not on purpose). They (the jahshaka team) promised golden mountains, a powerfull, never seen before compositing package. All for free, you are even free to alter the source code. The problem was that jahshaka was far from anything usefull. So lot’s of people got confused or felt led down, and stopped their support for the project.
Pixologic seems convinced about the fast delivery of 2.5 but… We all know there’ll be probably “not-so-easy-to-iron-out” flaws in the code of 2.5.
I would like to say to any developer of software with a huge and loyal userbase: Don’t give any hints of a soon delivery of your product untill you’re absolutely sure that the coding is done and everything left is to compile and create a installer.
I dont think the zbrush userbase will let pixologic down but they are for sure dissapointed.

Hope we all have this long awaited update soon!

Cheers,

Joost

#384

No dissapointment from Pixologic as far as I’m concerned. The only dissapointment I see is that folks whine and complain too much.

They are working on it and will be better and bigger than you think when the update is released.

I guess the problem lies in the product. If Z-brush was a piece of crap to begin with then this thread wouldn’t drag out to this point. Peops would move on.

I check this website everyday to see what’s going on, and am never dissapointed when I see what people are coming up with. Very cool stuff!!!

I’ve noticed that this community is tightly knitted, in the fact that if I go to any other 3D gallery on the web like Renderosity and look at Z-Brush entries, there are very few. That’s because Z-brush users stick around here, post thier entries here, because they receive support and gather ideas here.

Kudos to Pixologic for coming up with this amazing proggy. Peops will keep whining until you go out of business, because they want more, more, more.

#385

To Bill I respect your point of view. Everyone needs is different.

I think Road map to Zbrush 2.5 ws a brilliant marketing move by Pixologic.

It kept the buzz going about Zbrush while they are still working on it.
Leaving the customers in the dark for two years would have been a mistake. Yes it will soon be 2 years since a release or even a update.
So the roadmap and the release of the plugins kept things moving forward.

In addition Zmapper and ZLink helped some people make purchasing decisions based on these incredible plugins. You can not keep a item more people are using in their pipelines in the dark for two years. It may spawn someone else to fill the need and cut into your business.

Imagine if Pixologic had not said jack in two years you would have 100 times as many people whining.

They did the right thing and I hope they do a Roadmap to Z3.

#386

I disagree.

First off, this community thrives based on user contribution. If Pixologic announced tomorrow that they’ve halted development forever on all future ZBrush releases, there’d be an outbreak of suicides but this would still be the most active application-specific community anywhere. New techniques are invented every day, and new ZScripts improve functionality by the truckload. (This would be doubly true if the ZBrush SDK which was slated for release with 2.0 ever came out.) We all want to show off what we’re working on, and we all want to see what everyone else is working on. That’s the excitement, and there was no threat of it faltering prior to the 2.5 announcements. It’s been more than threatened since then, however, as negative feelings overwhelm.

Second, users weren’t in the dark until 2.5 was announced. Nobody felt cheated, nobody felt like they were being held out on. Pixolator and Aurick posted on a regular basis, and when Pixolator posted, it often meant a custom plugin to facilitate whatever was happening in the thread. He can’t do that anymore, because you’ll pounce on him to ask why those minutes weren’t spent developing something you care about. This sense that we’re in the dark, this constant need for assurance that development continues? Those are new. Prior to the announcement, nobody doubted that development continued because they saw it happening all around them.

These announcements were a brilliant move in the short term, but have since enslaved the developers and turned this forum into a hotbed of negativity.

I think the consequence outweighs the reward, and I’m just coming from a user perspective this time!

#387

Well I am not speaking of the community here on this forum but for the 3d industry that is using their product which is a far larger user base. The Roadmap is a good idea and it should continue. Like any map you can make a wrong turn or have a flat tire. Does not mean you should not tell your folks you are coming.

All good ideas will be question that is how things work. A one or two people complaining is not a hot bed a negavity. Please see Maxwell Threads.
I believe sometimes we take these threads to seriously even the moderators at times. No matter what you do people are not gonna be totally happy because everyone has different needs. Let people vent if they want maybe they had a bad day and it not as serious criticism as we think.

The developers of Silo I think are the best at keeping the customers informed.The reason why Apple is great brand because they make people feel close to them.

Zbrush developers should continue with a open Road Map philosophy. When they hit bump on the Road. All they have to do it let us know they are still on their way.

#388

.I hope there isnt a roadmap to version 3. I hate waiting. it drives me nuts. if there is a function I really want to use then its that much worse waiting it out. its kind of like me following mortal kombat. I could go all year without knowing when the new one is coming out. but here I find out and then waste countless time waiting every sec of the day for something new. whats going on? ect. like MK7 images and info has been released and now I am looking for all MK things I can daily.

I am just wondering. what are you pros in the industry looking forward to in 2.5? what will it have that you dont already know how to do in another program?

sense I am a newbie to cg and lack the learning process. I am looking forward to the rigging in zbrush 2.5. I just want to be able to pose my models. I hate looking at something in a stiff pose. its lame! now I could take it into maya and rig it, but its more time then what its worth and I am not advanced enough to understand all of that. then I have to deal with all the maps and crap as well. I dont want to do that at all. this is my hobby but id like to make better cooler images rather then stiff boring images.

I am hopeing 2.5 will be out really really soon. I could careless about all the other things that is coming out for it, cause I dont think it will help me out on what I want to do. just let me pose my models with ease!!! :slight_smile:

#389

You make my point exactly. You just want to pose models.

Many People in the industry want the 10 milllion realtime feed back as well as the new topology brush.

I do not mind waiting within reason. I just fine something else to conquer in the meantime.

#390

i will pose a question to you Cy…am not an animator so am curious.

As with Deity am curious given what we have seen in the previews …which basically is posing and topo…topo I can see the absolute need for given how zspheres work and how it could save a ton of time. But this seems to me a work flow thing as well. I am ignorant here so it seems to me a modeler models in some other than zb app, someone else rigs the base, cleans the edge flow if necessary, then back perhaps to someone to detail before sending to the texturers or whatever they are called. Am assuming in most studios at the moment that a base is used or done in another app for “proper edge flow” long before it gets to detailing stage in zb.

my question is…what is the hurry then…you have all the big plugins that woulda come out with it so what is it that we have seen other than perhaps 10+million poly’s…aside from movies …well even that …what kind of close ups is a model gonna have to need that kinda detail (again i profess ignorance here) ? are you looking to maybe cut out a step in creating the base…fix topo before rigging stage all the while do the detail and have the maps ready to send with right away kind of thing?

cuz am wondering without seeing it or how it works or knowing what kind of other “tools” might be coming along…how compatable the new ztopo and zposer will be with each of the animators and how they work…if i make sense here. if I make bozo the clown…rig him to find probs…thing all is good or retop to fix…how can we know at this point if that will still work with the rigging systems of other programs? will this be a work flow enhancement to save time there kind of thing?

guess would like to know more about what you think you are seeing or saw a siggraph that gets you all excited and needing it yesterday kind of thing.

few…sorry for the long one…too much coffee not enuf sleep i guess.

#391

If you’re not modelling for animation, I think that the pose functionality in zbrush will be huge and will make zb a fantastic value.
Especially if you don’t want to spend money on multiple apps.

I think the topology drawing feature (not over existing meshes, but over zsphere rigs) will make zbrush much better in mesh generation than it is today. Which, again, could add a lot to zbrush’s value if you can effectively and easily generate your initial meshes in it.

#392

If they’re not on this forum, they didn’t see the roadmap, and aren’t going to benefit from the increased communication on this forum that you’re asking for.

Those who made purchasing decisions based on the roadmap alone will feel no less betrayed no matter how often you tell them their product isn’t ready yet. The reasons why mean nothing to an industry professional’s bottom line, and neither party should have to be in this position.

Agreed.

Know what’s different, though? Silo has public betas. If the users didn’t have new stuff to play with on a regular basis, this policy would blow up in their face (as it has here).

And yet, outside of the transition to Intel, they don’t announce anything until it’s ready to ship. Pixologic didn’t either, originally, and it was only when they changed this policy that people stopped feeling close to them.

If that were true, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. They’ve told us. Folks still aren’t happy. Go figure.

#393

original from remcv8
No dissapointment from Pixologic as far as I’m concerned. The only dissapointment I see is that folks whine and complain too much.

They are working on it and will be better and bigger than you think when the update is released.

Since I’m a teacher on a secondary school in the netherlands, I know a little about the physology of announcements. When I say: Folks, were about to go to the cinema very soon!!! And let them wait for 6 months, I’m quite sure they will complain. That’s not their fault its mine.

I guess the problem lies in the product. If Z-brush was a piece of crap to begin with then this thread wouldn’t drag out to this point. Peops would move on.

This doesn’t make sense to me. I do agree Zbrush is a great product. But to refer to the jahshaka project–> There’s a lot of commotion on their forums although the current state of the app is crap. Still people don’t walk away. They just want what has been promised to them!

I do agree that whining won’t help but it ain’t wrong to confront people with their mistakes. That way they can learn from it.

Cheers,

Joost

#394

As I recall Ryan made the analogy with white water kayaking when he wrote about the roadmap.

I’m not sure we can expect Pixologic to manage our (mis)perceptions any more than they are doing at the moment. I would feel relief if they decide to say nothing for their sake more than my own.

It would be foolish to lose appreciation of the fact that developing something like ZBrush is a task that few people in the history of the world could ever have accomplished. It is greater in scope and more useful than the Sistine chapel, it empowers artists the world over and brings us all together in a global community.

It borders stupidity and shows deep ignorance of all that has been achieved already to underline any amount of disappointment whatsoever. There is a right to be in awe, anything less would be rude.

#395

“If you’re not modelling for animation, I think that the pose functionality in zbrush will be huge and will make zb a fantastic value.
Especially if you don’t want to spend money on multiple apps.”

I couldnt of said it better. I would love to learn animation but its all going over my head. with all the maps and the weighting of the model and the rigging and so on. it gets very confusing and I havent found a book for dummies explaining why you need certain maps nor how to apply them. everything is long winded mass of crap that makes it even that much more confusing to me.

so just being able to turn a neck and raise a hand without any warping, without the long process of creating all these maps and lower poly model and such. will be a huge plus to me. its no fun spending time creating a model and painting it if its stiff. it takes away from the character or the idea you have in your head but cant get it out cause your stuck in a pose.
I could create a zsphere model of course thats in a certain pose. but when it comes to modeling it takes that much longer cause you cant work with the xsym.

by all means i am not whining. I am just excited and looking forward to this fuction. (insert whining now) I mean they showed a preview of it being used over 2 years ago and its still not out? it looked like it worked great in the video. but still its not out. I dont get that. I want this fuction like I want a million bucks!!! :smiley: that bad!!

#396

If I might toss something in…

deity, you could try checking out this thread.

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=21407

You will have to go through it all as we toss around a lot of information.

Storing the poses as morphs and pulling into your favorite app might be easy. Or doing it in Zbrush like the good ole stop motion way is possible with the Zbrush toolset.

It really depends on you.

Yes some of the upcoming new features look cool. But I can assure you as soon as they are released, people will want more. It’s human nature not to be satisfied. :wink:

#397

Everything in moderation.

They’re confronted by the consequence of this decision every moment of every day. That users are upset (regardless whether they have a right to be) is no longer news to them.

Besides, if the goal is just to inform them that you think they’ve made a mistake, a private message accomplishes that. The public ones are more political by nature (whether intended or not), riling the crowd to add pressure for a response, which in turn accomplishes nothing but to open the floor for more demands. Downward spiral…

#398

yes you’re right. I shouldn’t have used the word mistake. Sorry developers!

Joost

#399

Good point Ctrl-Z.

Sometimes I wonder if any responses from me or anyone are in any way helpful. There’s always disagreement which in-turn spawns more arguements and adds to the pressure.

I know that even after the update there will be expentancies for further development from the user standpoint.

I just hope that developers don’t burn out and can keep thier enthusiasm.

#400

Hello people,
Does anyone know the exact date of the Zbrush 2.5 update?
I don’t see any news about that on the forum:confused: