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Making Time For Art #2 - Now with tutorial movie PART 2

ZBrush Artworks
#202

These tanks, watches and bikes are neat as an exercise but I don’t see the point in them at all. It’s an completely unusable model. You’d have to then go re create the entire thing a second time using a poly modeling application which you could have just done the first time. Not to mention handling several hundred subtools has got to be worse than child birth.

I was working on T4 last summer and the Terminator skull was actually sculpted in Zbrush. I thought that came out well and was a smart way to work. I can’t imagine doing the entire endo skeleton we created in something like zbrush though. Would not have been possible to get the accuracy or manage the thousands of assets.

I suppose as concept art I can see the argument, assuming you could do this so fast that it made sense to rebuild it again a second time for real.

Good work on the model.

#203

Just a quick update. I made a short movie in ZBrush, but, how do ya load it to see it here at this post? I exported out as .mov

![Cartooned 32.jpg|833x662](upload://aaVuZ6xrTIn99zkIX1HNCBvQ0dm.jpeg)
#204

Hey Dragon,
Starting to coming well !

#205

How to post an HD video on ZBC: http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?t=85640

#206

Hi Michel, thanks a million. I could have had more done, but, I am right now not only modeling this tool, but learning ZBrush all over again and loving it (been on the net watching a ton of how to videos and on this site, mainly the help/how to sections). Man, you picked up Pixolators techniques quickly, your bike looks exactly like his.

Aurick, I said it before and I will say it again… your all over this site-:smiley: and I am real glad you are. And to you, thanks a million as well.

#207

"These tanks, watches and bikes are neat as an exercise but I don’t see the point in them at all. It’s an completely unusable model. "

yeah, i think the primary use is in a vfx context would be concepting to begin with. an alternative to doing a 2d sketch… with zb, it’s just about as easy to do a “3d sketch” - as you noted, speed is the key. they still make maquettes and such just for the creative heads to get a good read on the design of something so this would be a way to quickly translate ideas into 3d and then also quickly make any changes without blowing out the glue and balsa wood budget. it’s gotta be concepted and signed off before a production asset can be built anyway so zb’s a good fit for that.

also, it might “completely unusable” in a feature film context but for something like 3d printing or toy casting, it might be just fine. also, for gaming, there’s enough of an acceptable disparity between in-game mesh and normal mapped real time render version that a decimation may get you most of the way to a production asset at a button press. and of course, there are folk making digital stills and illustrations and for them, this allows them to build everything in a single program instead of having to jump back and forth between several.

there are other uses for cgi than hollywood… : )

but actually, i’d be kinda curious to hear pixolator’s or other zb gurus thoughts on hard model sculpting in terms of a vfx or cgi movie pipeline.

from what i can see, it looks like even as it pertains to those endeavors, zb sculpting gives you a lot of sheer construction capability that would come much more slowly and more painfully with traditional hard surface modeling in something like maya, max, xsi, etc. so even in terms of JUST giving you a template to build a traditional poly/nurbs shell on top of, it might be worth it (as with a scanned point cloud of an existing object). and for the ultra fine details, you can extract a displacement/normal map for projection during render as well.

actually, something that i will be looking with interest on is PANZER 88 over at weta right now i think… a tiger tank is practically the main character and it’ll be interesting how gritty they go with their digital versions and whether geometry at a certain level of disrepair/detail may in fact be handled better in zb.

jin

#208

I’m aware that there are other uses for CG other than feature film. (obviously). Not that it makes my point any more or less legit, but I spent a decade as a game artist before doing Feature Films. No you could not decimate this and be done via “a button click”. Toy Casting and other trades, sure you can model or sculpt in anything and they will work just fine.

Zbrush always releases great videos and they spend lots of time on them. (As they should). So I assume this was not something cranked out in a day or two and then un-thoughtfully posted as a wip. It’s a company demo and time was spent making it. It’s a legit critique to say that if this takes you 1 week or more to do then you’re not actually saving any time. If it takes you two days then you have a nice time savings there. Which it very well may. I think in feature for photo real cars we’ll build a photo real, ready model in a week or so depending on artist speed. Trust me I long for the days when i dont ever have to actually look at a polygon and move verts.

To answer your final question, hard surface sculpting is essential in feature film. I’ve given lectures and live demo’s on the subject. (CG con 2009) and I use Zbrush every single day. Sculpting as a technique has caused a renaissance within the modeling community and it has changed the way people work. I rarely model anything anymore. 8 times out of 10 i sculpt then retopo. I’ll be giving a 2 week inner office zbrush class to Lucas Film/ILM in November and I’ll be spending 2 days on that subject alone. It’s an incredible time saver and unfortunately some of the old schoolers have not quite embraced yet.

Other random info: Hero cars are typically scanned. If weta has access to an actual tank they’ll likely do a full tank scan then retopo a legit model. Then bring it into Zbrush for detailing. That is the typical workflow anyway.

#209

I’m afraid I have to agree with oneigekko. I’m actually a toy designer and while I use some of the techniques shown here, I find most of it impractical for my everyday use. Yes, I am sculpting for output, so I could just crank out a 40 million poly model, but frankly, with a little practice, I’ve found I can create something with much more versatility by doing a quick Zsketch and retopologizing it, along with building things directly in Maya. Something like this bike I personally would have built mostly in Maya. This makes things much easier to change and update as the client hones in on what they are looking for. Also, everything I make can then become part of a library I have been building for years now. As much as I wish there were, there just isn’t a substitute for the many advantages I get from clean topology, fixed pivot points, and, dare I say…folders to organize it all. Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely LOVE ZBrush. I can’t imagine life without it. But I just thought I’d throw my two cents in, seeing as how the subject of toy sculpting came up.

Cheers
Will

#210

huh?

isn’t this answering your own initial “what’s the point” question?

jin

p.s. oh yeah, you probably couldn’t decimate this bike but there are other hard surface mechs and armored vehicles that seemed pretty amenable to a quick decimate and clean up and then reproject.

#211

I said I dont get the point in these tanks, watches and motorcycles. It’s the first sentence of my post.

#212

sorry, i don’t mean to be confrontational but that’s what i don’t get -

the watches, motorcycles and tanks are EXAMPLES of hard surface sculpting… a technique which according to your own words is not only NOT a waste of time but essential - and in feature films no less… again, your words:

“hard surface sculpting is essential in feature film. I’ve given lectures and live demo’s on the subject. (CG con 2009) and I use Zbrush every single day. Sculpting as a technique has caused a renaissance within the modeling community and it has changed the way people work. I rarely model anything anymore. 8 times out of 10 i sculpt then retopo. I’ll be giving a 2 week inner office zbrush class to Lucas Film/ILM in November and I’ll be spending 2 days on that subject alone. It’s an incredible time saver and unfortunately some of the old schoolers have not quite embraced yet.”

what i mean is, just read your first comment and then read your quote above.

aren’t you kind of answering yourself?

or are you saying the watch, the bikes, the tanks are unique examples where hard surface sculpting is a poor fit?

jin

#213

Your last sentence is correct.

Please stop pasting random sentences from my post. I was incredibly clear and if you read the entire post it forms an obvious point about speed and usability being the issue. You just decided not to past that part of my post so you can make a point. Yes it is confrontational.

Also this is not a sculpting video. It’s their own form of zbrush booleans. You create shapes or negative shapes via masking. (shadowbox) Similar to really nice nurb applications like Rhino. So when I say hard surface sculpting I mean sculpting. As in pushing and pulling a shaps out of a single mesh or multiple subtools. Hard surface sculpting is just that.

This video has 14 pages of praise and 2 industry guys mentioned a a couple issues they might have with this technique. It’s not a big deal.

#214

Josh, just a thought buddy, have you attempted to bring up the issue with Pixologic i.e. video/phone conference? Hell, just thought that you being ‘the or a’ lead artist at Lucas Film, they would be all ears about your concerns. Just found it kinda strange for you to post what you did up here. Seems that this is something VERY important to you and a discussion Pixologic would like to have to see if they can figure out a solution to your/film industries issues. I can see how some folks can get offened by your comments about tanks etc (hell, I almost got killed over at another post-non-zbrush related- for giving honest opinions about an artists piece of work) and I am sure YOUR comments are legit, but again… should this not had been something you should have brought up directly to them? Hell, why don’t you invite them to your meeting in November? I am sure good things will come out of that!:wink:

#215

“You just decided not to past that part of my post so you can make a point.”

i have no agenda or point to make. i’m no software cheerleader.

it just seemed like you answered your own question and it was not clear to me that you were singling out the watches and bikes and tanks for the “non sculptural” techniques used. and the context of the rest of what you said didn’t clarify for me why that quote does NOT answer your initial post.

you seem to think you’re clearer than you are. to me at least. i was just tryin’ to get at what you’re saying. if that offends you… nothin’ i can do about it.

as you say, it’s not a big deal.

jin

#216

Hey Jin, why don’t you and Josh invite Pixologic to a cup of coffee and see if you all can find a fix to Josh’s concerns? Where’s the love man? Where’s the love?:smiley: Anywho, I am just a simple little guy enjoying this amazing piece of software. Listen, seriously, maybe Josh has a point and so do you, but, instead of trying to ‘out smart’ one another, why don’t you guys use those wonderful Digital GOD brains of yours and continue creating wonderful pieces of art for the rest of us simpleten’s to enjoy?:smiley:

#217

Bah, this is why I never post online and just work.

Sorry for not being clear when I said Tank, Watch and Motorcycle. I figured you’d all know I meant the tank, watch and motorcycle and not dissing an entire sculpting technique globally. I love you all. (handing flower).

Well there are no issues to bring up with pixologic. The tool works fine. As in nothing is broken.

I do have friends on the dev team there and when i have issues i call them and send them videos. After release 3.5 actually. Anyway, they are always helpful and they do listen.

Shadowbox is very cool. For now however if someone needs to make a gun-ship for Avatar it’s gonna be scanned or done in nurbs/polys. The shadow box is a unique feature and as it progresses so will the speed and usability of zbrush mesh’s. Just like how no one ever did mech suits in zbrush or mudbox 6 years ago and now its the normal approach. It’s just not there yet. But it will be.

#218

hey dragon,

for the life of me, i really wasn’t trying to be a smart ass… i’m not tryin’ to say that sculpting or zb is perfect for every conceivable application or that i was “offended” that everyone didn’t just shut up and prostrate themselves and burst into tongues of praise.

as i said elsewhere, this “quick and dirty” method of hard surface modeling that “approximates” centers and “eyeballs” things makes me apoplectic with anxiety… i like dealing with snaps and precision myself. but for me, it looks cool and something that i’d like to get more comfortable with.

someone said something. i honestly had a question about what was said. i asked.

i’m not trying to prove he’s wrong or i’m right nor make this a battle of wits… i’m not sure (hahaha) but it might actually be that we don’t disagree… i just wasn’t clear on something that was stated and i just wanted to know what was meant.

gahhh…

upon a forensic examination of the exchange, i believe that the genuinely good natured intention of a smiley in my first response may have been misinterpreted. and things went downhill from there?

shrug

anyway, by all means - peace and love.

jin

#219

Hi Josh. With your comment about “This is why I never post online…” I agree. At times, things can and will be taken out of content. I too stopped posting on forums for a long time (the part I write about almost getting killed at another forum-:smiley: , that was about 4 years ago) I now only try to post to say “I like this or I like that-if I really like something” and leave it as such. But this post caught my eye. I know you ment well, so I hope ‘I’ didn’t send the wrong message. It’s just that I (along with all of you) have seen ZBrush ‘grow up’ in the last ten years to such a point that it seems mind boggling at times. The post ‘almost seemed’ like you were beating up on poor ol’ ZBrush:D even though I know you were not meaning to come off like that. And I know you like using ZBrush as I visited your Blog (nice stuff BTW-really liked watching your video on ‘Creature Concept Sculpt with Narration’… and I agree also on the part that you talk about ‘how to’ videos skipping important parts). Sooo, I know you ment no harm. I am also with you, perhaps today the program (as nothing in this world is perfect) it not quite up to par just yet as far as hard modeling goes, but man, something tells me if they (Pixologic) have done this much in ten years, one can only ask “what will they bring us in the next ten?” And with folks such as yourself and Jin giving them input, the rest of us can expect nothing short of miracles. And Jin, I didn’t think you were coming off as a ‘smart ass’. You, like Josh (as far as I can tell) were just giving your opinions right or wrong. After all, it’s a free country ( I should know, as I proudly served her ten years in the greates Army the world has ever known). Look, I know your both great men, you have to be… your ARTISTS:D-Peace and Love to you my artist brothers, peace and love. Best.

#220

aurick, if you have time, can you give me some guidance (or anyone??) Can you please view this post:

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?p=749225#post749225

Toward the bottom, under DRAGON, you will see my issue.

#221

@Dragon: hmm strange! Try to mask your Tool (Ctrl + LMB on Canvas) and than go to “Geometry”. There is a button called “Equalize Surface Area” - click it. Or just go to “Deformation” and play with the “Relax” value … Hope that helps you!

Leto