hello!i’mgoing to try to explain my feels on this question, loqutos; the las pict i’ve post is “warning pornography”;the idea was ,behind the character,drawing a lot of cave drawings imbricated, and somewhere, not immediately evident, the tag of the two mammoth; i have’nt be able to solve thge composition: nobody see the little tag, understand the drawing, i put the “hands down” and draw just the tag of the mammoth, sure it is much lower as humor, incomfortable with that, don’t sign, …the point is that most of the times, professional " see" what happens, are frustrated cose they can’t solve, but have to find "their"answer…But I agree with you, loqutos, negative feedback is always necessary: I think really that it is done by others artists work: I mean, when I began to paint as illustrator, no need Norman Rockwell write to me, saying:my poor guy, you’re really low! sufficient to see his pictures, that’s i think the beauty of the trick: you have the critic, and the “mark to hit”, in the same picture! hope that i am understanble with my bad english! friendly M.
I am self-editing my posts before anyone else can.
Loqutos
I’ll go get the drinks in.
Same again…?
I have been smiling thru this debate and watching it closely. You all made some great points. It’s a good thing Picaso didn’t have Zbrush and was a member of the forum. He would have thought no one liked his work or his “style”. Blobs of this and that and people drawn and painted without much thought given to their anatomy. “Geez there is that Piccaso member again posting his mediocre crap. Why does he keep posting all that gobbldie goop?” Or “There is that leonardo character again…geez if I see that smiling chick model smirking at me one more time I am going to barf…and what’s up will all his little pictures he puts up of these fantastic little contraptions? You gotta be kidding…you know that Leonardo has way too much time on his hands…” or… “There is that Giger member again…if I see one more alien or nekkid woman with biomechanical limbs coming out of her I will scream…”…where does it end? Each have their own styles and each are immortalized. Talent, taught or inherant? hmmmm… many of the people on this forum that are great digital artists have admitted time and time again that they cannot draw a straight line with a pencil. But in the digital medium they are Z deities adored by all. Some of the best artists here just have regular ole jobs, Cabin builders, department store managers, and pencil pushers are three that come to mind. and no offense meant to those jobs, but my point being they aren’t professional artists. It was brought up earlier that one of the users hated all the monsters and hellish images…I got the feeling of religion coming from that, which is kewl. I am a christian and as far as hellish images. Well I have to tell you as a christian I believe that there are worse creatures to face to those that have the displeasure of going to Mr.Hornheads domain than are displayed on ZBC. People have been drawing monsters and displaying graphic violence in images for a gazillion years. DM, posted an image of Jesus on the cross a month or so ago. Outstanding pic. The genres that we display are as diverse and as rich as the people that produce on the forum. And for me as far as the critique for the forum goes… Just ask for the 1 2 1 …post it at the end of a title of a piece and people will either come out of the woodwork to give you the asked critique or they will not reply at all which at taht point you can take as a critique as well. If you all notice though…things as far as images run in spurts…like a mob mentality, we all get on the band wagon and maybe do a 2d landscape or other painting, a dragon(which has been hot lately) Halloween theme which is current, mechanical things like cars and vehicles…but we learn something and or are challenged or wish to immitate anothers work to some degree and go on with our learnings/postings. I say all this with a sincer smile on my face. I am not flaming anyone or the comments made, only expressing myself with my usual waffling(as someone on this thread has stated before under another name but that is another story 
) Great thread yall started loqutus. Though this has been all said before its still good to clear the air and get a pulse from the community on the subject. 
I am self editing my posts before anyone else can.
Loqutos
hey locqutos, I wasn’t bustin yer chops…my limited knowledge of art history is where those few names came from. I had never heard of Dali before coming to the forum. My studious friend, Robo put me on to viewing his works. Regardless of the man’s earlier works and knowledge, Picasso is most remembered for the wierd stuff it seems. And that’s ok. I was merely trying to get the point across that had he been a member of zbrush and only showed the wierd stuff or very outlandish images he could have been brushed off as an inexperienced artist. Or if he wasn’t good in the digital medium, but was great on the traditional canvass we would never have known. Same go true for the others I mentioned…though I think giger would have fit right in with the forum with no problem as would have Davinci…as for me…I just like to create pics…I don’t have to be labled an artist or a hobbyist or anything…I merely make little monster pics for the most part because.
- I like monsters…like a boy liking bugs…coz they look kewl…
- I like the horror genre above all others. Very limited tastes
It’s my forte and that is what I have drawn without tiring too much for close to 40 years. - I do it digitally now because I want to learn this kinda stuff, so I chose subject matter I am interested in that will hold my attention. The longer my attention is held with my composition the longer I am more likely to learn something.
- snicker…there is no number four at the moment…
I have members on the forum that let me know when something looks sucky…but to tell ya the truth, I already know when something is not up to par…now I may sometimes have to ask why it doesn’t look right…perspective, color, materials, lighting, posing, scenerey, overall setting, mood, the list goes on I am sure…but rather than me going and asking those individuals I will put 121 after the title of my piece and will normally get some good feedback type criticisms…but if a person asks for the 1 21 they need to be ready for what they ask for. I have responded to threads before via private messages to give my 121 responses and I think it hurt relationships between myself and the artist I wrote. And that is sad, because they got the feedback, the feedback was not severe, was not voiced by me with any evils etc…but still they couldn’t take it. So I no longer give feedback of that nature to that person, even when they ask for it. I guess it’s that be careful what you ask for coz you just might get it syndrome…this is still a kewl topic
Ok, here’s my brief take on things: when I come on the forum it’s just to get my eye-candy fix, to give and receive. 
All this elitist stuff about the Masters and standards of art and whether some genres are better than others - man, let’s keep open minds and keep the forum open to all, more friendly that way. Post what you like and 121 if you want, as most will agree. As for those pulling fast ones, they always slip up as the past has shown.
So I agree that the forum should be open to all, from the newbie to the professional.
I am self-editing my posts before anyone else can.
Loqutos
Did you read all my post? So tell me, what is the BIG issue?
He is wondering why people get pats on the back instead of slaps on the wrists…figuratively speaking. I however am very passionate about giving level ground to all. Why do you think I post how I do things. Because I would wish those ahead of me in ZB skill to do as such (they usually don’t). I will say that people get pats on the back (comments on posted images) because they didn’t ask for slaps on the wrists (comments on posted images with a 121 request). Plan and simple. Go to quicklinks and check out the 121 thread (if you haven’t already). I felt like such an ass when I realized I was getting upset at people who wouldn’t critique my images…until I familiarized myself with that thread. Then I realized I wasn’t asking for it.
Also, skill can be both innate and acquired. Both also lead to comparible talent. This “you have it or you don’t” line is just that. Those who feel that they have the passion but lack the talent are limited as such unless the idea of acquired skill is realized. I know that was a mouthful but its true. As a matter of fact, there are some users here who might not be an experience modeler or texturizer but who could teach others that are a thing or two about lighting and composition. And that is probably why they are here to learn as well as share. One might feel that the image isn’t all there for the general liking. But something is there. If not then the images would look like morning hurl in a square.
You are not wrong in your thinking though loqutos. It is a very commercial/buisness outlook and that isn’t wrong (especially in a professional field). Unfortunately, that is the way things work in most professional environments. This forum however isn’t ment to be an exclusively professional environment. There shouldn’t be a competative tension here. This is a place for learning. Acquiring one’s talent for ZBrush whether it be learning from tutorials, seeing others artwork, or even posting images and recieving comments well and with the best intensions in mind. The estimation of its content is only if they ask for it because they should know better then us if they can handle it or not.
I, like I am sure sooo many others, look forward to one of the ZB gurus to critique the images posted. We all wish pix would but know he has a busy life. But neither of that seem to happen. I feel that they too understand that there are so many good points as there are bad points because of the extreme dynamics professional art and design demands. Now, ask yourself how any of the dabblers actually care about this demand. If they did then this would be more than a hobby.
The assumption that the artists in question are of teenage years and who’s talent is measured as such is an extremely poor lapse in judgement. There are those who can dance this a pencil but wrestle with a mouse…and lose…and vice versa. And yes, happen to be advanced in age.
There are exceptions to everything! Even the exceptions.
I guess it would be nice to have a professionals forum but that divides ZB user base and I don’t think Pixologic would want that. Especially with such an amazing and ever changing program. We all learn together.
Though the cliche “The tool doesn’t matter” is usually true, in the case of ZBrush, it’s a tool marketed for anyone who wants to be an artist, but has some difficulty with traditional mediums. Though the main ZBrush gallery spotlights professional level work from many commercial artists (most of whom are reknowned for their non ZBrush achievements), most of the ZBrushCentral members (like me :mad: ) have vastly inferior professional experience and use ZBrush as a kind of wind up toy; press a button and let the program do the work. The serious and deliberate nature of artistic achievement is not terribly important. For something of that nature, the best place to go is school. Face to face criticisms are FAR superior to anything anyone says online. We are all unknown entities to each other, free to act as professional or sophomoric as we want.
ZBrushCentral is basically a living manual for ZBrush. It does get edited, but only for bad behavior 
. Serious critiques are available and often helpful. But, unless Pixolator hires a crew of art professors and starts an online course, I doubt in depth discussion of each others posts will lead to anything except confusion and frustration. I’m not a professional (yet). Hopefully, when I reach that level, I’ll have enough self-restraint to let other folks progress at their own pace, and not push them into thinking they’re doing something wrong. If they’re serious about art, they’ll see work here that motivates them, and figure it out (and quickly).
Personally I visit ZBrushCentral to see whats being done with ZBrush (and more importantly how). But, it’s really unreasonable to ask one of the Big Guys (Pixolator, Ken Brilliant, Le Discot, Southern, and Loqutos–check out his personal website) for an indepth analysis or tutorial. They give us what they want and we had better be happy about it In the same reguard, it’s overzealous to ask each of us to point out quality and detritus more often. Honestly, who cares what each of considers right or wrong? Good or bad? Such a discussion is invalid here. There are much better places to go (like CGTalk.com).
I’d rather have somebody say ‘good job’ than nothing at all. Most of us know what works with our ‘art’ and what doesn’t. Unless somebody explicitly demands it, we post here for the excitement and fun of a generous community, not for an art lecture.
ZBrushCentral is not an art forum. That’s much too broad. Its more of a ZBrush Club House. No germs allowed.
We should show our work elsewhere if we want to be taken seriously, and learn. ZBrushCentral is a shelter for ZBrush specific information. Everythng else is a bonus.
Anyway, this is a really fun topic. I really like it .
Hi all,
i want express my opinion:
every drawing is art, it can be good or bad, but it is art, almost for the creator. We don’t say (have) the TRUTH when speak about other’s works: we look at it with our eyes and then we see other things.
I don’t think there is a precise limit from true art and joke…Otherwise only Leonardo, Raffaello, Michelangelo and few other can be considered ARTISTS. And modern art ? I don’t like it, but i can’t tell you that it’s not art.
I think in this forum only 121 is allowed.
This forum is not an arena where we can fight.
For the new people entry: look at the first threads of the forum…there was much more help, courtesy and collaboration.
CIAO
cameyo
Cameyo is clear, consice, and sure near the possible truth.
“Time passed to critize is a time lost for make art” Confucius
Pilou 
Ps
I have read all the posts of this thread
so conclusion
well yall brightened my morning…it’s 530am here and this is the first thread I have read with my waking eyes.
I didn’t think anything new was going to come of this thread but zbc members never fail to amaze me…
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> ZBrushCentral is not an art forum. That’s much too broad. Its more of a ZBrush Club House. No germs allowed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>ZBrushCentral is basically a living manual for ZBrush. It does get edited, but only for bad behavior <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Though hilarious because it is, it is so so true…but it is a positive position…thnx for making me choke on my morning cigarette…
Ron
The discussion whether to criticise or not is always difficult to tackle, I would not want to be responsible for discouraging somebody with potential to improve, because I said the wrong thing. Having said that, no criticism for some is a disadvantage, because often if they can continually get praise for little effort then they just continue to make little effort and their potential is stifled. I have certainly seen people come on to the forum with great promise, forum members have responded with encouragement and so the new member instead of trying to move forward has stagnated repeatedly doing easy stuff to get more praise. The time comes when the people commenting get fed up with a dozen or more images a week coming on that are no longer interesting, so they stop commenting, the artist gets disheartened and leaves the forum.
A prime example was myself at school, I had become an adept at drawing pictures of Popeye, the other kids used to keep asking for pictures of Popeye. I became happy with their praise, it bolstered my ego, so I wasn’t trying to do anything else or even improve on what I was doing. In the end I had to force myself out of that rut and move on, I chose to do that, not everybody does.
When making judgements likes and dislikes do come into it, I have seen Picasso’s conventional work so was aware that he was a capable artist, but I hate most of his work that became popular. As my personal opinion of his popular artwork is negative, my judgement would be biased by my feelings.
I think this will always be a debate with no real answer, some people will like to criticise others work because that for them bolsters their own egos, others would do it with a genuine intent to help. Leaving aside styles or subject matter, I have always said the best form of criticism, is to produce an example of your own work, to show that you personally can produce as good as, or improve on that element which you are critical of.
Dave
I am self editing my own posts before anyone else can.
Loqutos
Your point about being a professional is now so far down my throat its peeping out the other end. I smell a rat.
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I just think that if some people get lots of praise for inadequate or bad art, they may think they are much better than they are and try to get a job in the field…only to be greatly disappointed by the comments they will receive from persons they interview with…
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Why say that when you just said
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I realize that most of the members here are kids playing with a digital medium for the first time,
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I don’t know about you but I am sick and tired of our professional graphics industry being flooded with 15 year olds. 
To be completely honest with you, if one of my DM’s assumed as much as you, they would no longer be employeed by me. :rolleyes: To assume the entirety of an individual strictly by the apearence of their art is far beyond poor judgement. For another, how many ‘kids’ do you know have $400 to blow on a toy they cant even learn how to use. Sure, there are exceptions. I am sure a few might be kids but considering all the people I have talked to in ZBC, I am one of the youngest here…and I am 25 (Thats right I run Graphics Department! Better then anyone in our 30 year history).
All on aquired skill too.
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I like going to an art forum where there are good pieces to look at…where you can derive some inspiration, maybe even get a handle on a new technique from someone else’s work…
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Have you even tried looking around. Obviously not. I have learned tons from said methods applied here at ZBC. If you feel you can’t find this here then I am sorry you feel so limited.
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a constant string of mediocre or bad images
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You bring this on yourself. You don’t like it?..Sorry!..You don’t have to look.
Just read what interests you and leave the rest be. If this isn’t enough, then maybe ZBC will make a High End ZB user forum. Though I will tell you now, a place like this doesn’t change to fit one person.
ZB shall not be segregated between the Kids and the gurus. As for inept imagery by lesser users…let them do as they please and take what they please from the comments received. If they choose the hard lession then so be it. I have made a head proportions tutorial for the people here (at least those who want to use it). Those who wish to learn do so and those who care less are allowed just the same. Let people choose their paths. What are you so worried about.
BTW- Considering the estimation of abilities out there for the hiring, and considering the whole of our present subject matter…I would stop talking about quality work if I were you.
As some of the more observant of you may have noticed, I haven’t been around here much lately…In fact, in most respects, I am not a participating member any longer…I am responding to this thread as an exception, because I’ve watched this progression of thoughts, on this very topic play out the same way, time after time, and trust me it’s not going anywhere. Yes, encouragement is good, and in fact that is how most of my posts came about…But the thing that tipped the logic for me, regarding whether I should continue to participate came about almost three weeks ago now, when a member, whose work I like wrote me an email, and in what I thought was a very insulting tone, objected to the fact that, every time he did an image dealing with gems or metals, I would be there giving input, and it made him uncomfortable because he was not a gemcutter or jeweller, but was just having fun…At this point I realized that my time at the forum had come to an end.
If having worked stone all my life, and having information to share in my field of expertise was out of line, well what was I doing here, in the midst of such insecurity and fear of ‘correction’ as the individual described it…Should I deny over 45 years of experience in my field? Should not other members who have an interest in the technical side of the materials not get the information because of this insecurity? I realized that ego was now driving the forum, and although many want to evolve in their work, many others see the advice that they themselves request as a threat to that ego, and not the sharing I regarded it as…
So in conclusion, I don’t think you will solve this, because the same pattern is emerging, but I admire the attempt…That at least is positive.
In fact, there are so many levels of participation here, that I think everyone should leave the questions aside, as well as the differences if possible, and just enjoy the time, as I did for over a year…For me, the decision is to watch, look for interesting new works, and regret the repititious nature of some of the work, and the lack of growth that often goes along with recreation of the familiar in the place of the new.
Loqutos,
I bought ZBrush after entering the 3D-Passion contest (and not getting a single vote ). I spent two weeks on two 640 X 480 doodles that nobody commented on. But, I thought I was a big shot while fiddling around with them. I never posted them on ZBrushCentral because
1)I thought they were soooo good somebody would try to sabotage my chances at the contest by saying something “constructive” (like the nose is too big, or the eyes are two round).
2)I feel that the more criticisms work receives, the less original it becomes. In the world of 3D, the assumption is that everything needs to look “real.” In every 3D gallery, the works that most closely resemble real world conditions recieve the most comments and constructive criticisms. Why? Becuase we are all familiar with the natural world and its easy to pick out flaws in a copy.
Picasso chose his style in order to achieve a look “more real than real.” Copying nature is difficult, to be sure, but not particularly original or energetic. It doesn’t have to look good to be effective. The redundant ulginess we all see (and, in my case, ocassionally contribute to) that flows across ZBrush Forum is more a testament to how much fun ZBrush is than anything else. Like you state on your tag line, “working with ZBrush RuleZ!”
I would not want to feel like I had to dress up to visit ZBC. I much rather be unshaven and unbathed. It adds to the hedonism.
It’s nice not to always be professional. We’d all go nuts without diversions. ZBrush can serve both purposes, with ease. ZBrushCental serves to bring ZBrush related content, and help us with both our work and foolishness. Demanding criticism, unless asked for, could very easily become divisive. I appreciate the way this site is run, and hope its raucous behavior continues.
Shame on me. I’m no good :mad: .