I have self-edited my posts before anyone else can.
Loqutos
The same topic has been gone over numerous times in this forum. All you have to do is ask for 121 in your post and you will get all the critiques you can handle. Like this
(121 APPRECIATED) <--------
As RC said, this has been discussed often. If you do a search you’d find a million different ideas and opinions. You wouldn’t actually find all the threads though, because so many have degenerated into harsh words and flaming. Asking for 121 will often get you good critiques, though of course it is up to the poster to decide whether to give you it or not. I think the reason that we don’t always do this 121 thing is that some people aren’t looking to create the next masterpiece of the century, but merely want to have some support from the community, and maybe inspire another person occasionaly. 
Well, there are blobs of color and there blobs of color. Some artists have made quite a lot of money by splattering paint on a canvas. Then they stick a title on it like “Random Exploration of the Soul”, and it sells like lemonade on a hot summer day near the equater! 
Seriously though, I think the importance of those “congrats on your scribbles and blobs” posts is encouragement. You encourage those artists to go on. I was encouraged (and am still being encouraged) by peoples encouragement. (Now how many times did I say “encouragement”? )
Loqutos, personally I think it’s nice that people here generally follow the rule “if you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything, unless they really ask for it”
The ZBC membership is a mixed crowd with different levels of experience, ability and ambition. Sure there are some “serious” artists and graphics pros (present and future) here, but many, perhaps most, are hobbyists and amateurs (in the root sense) just playing with ZBrush for the fun of it rather than to nudge the tiller of the world.
So from that POV, I think it’s nice that ZBC is a place where people can post something like “here’s a pretty and/or cool picture I made, I hope you like it” or "here’s a cool trick I learned, and here’s how … "
kind of like when people learn a new trick (skateboarding, cooking or whatever) and show it off to their friends, even if it’s an old trick that people have been doing better for 20 years, still, they’re your friends, and both the showing of the trick and the appreciation are nice gifts in this transitory world …
As for improvement, I believe most people who want to improve their skills are self-directing in that area – they have probably learned a lot already through mimickry and analysis, and can even see faults in their own work that others would not notice, so in that case it’s up to the artist to say “hey, the stubble on this guy sucks, any suggestions?” or whatever …
best wishes,
Kevin
I have self-edited my posts before anyone else can.
Loqutos
Everything you know is wrong…
Anyone who believes “you either have it or you don’t” doesn’t have it.
I think the key thing here is people’s opinions will not change here… I mean, there was no rule when we started here at ZBC that we couldn’t have critical posting. It just happened this way. It seams likely, therefore, that the majority of us do not want critical posting, unless they specify 121. It has been suggested that we have a special forum for this, but again, I don’t think most people would be in favor of this.
I think that the issue here is the different goals that different people have for their art. For some is just a hobby, others want to develop it into a career, while others just want to express themselves. Even whithin those groups there are differences. Some are into realistic stuff, others into abstract stuff. And not to mention the different levels of proficiency. What you need is not only criticisms from anyone in the forum but from like minded individuals who want in depth criticisms of their work. When I say like minded individuals I mean people who are serious about improving themselves and create the kind of art you are interested in. Another important requirement would be a good level of maturity when both taking and giving criticism (a litle thickness in the skin could be useful as well). Where can you find such individuals. This thread is a good start. I think Kruzr shares your point of view as I do. What we can do is email each other every time we post a new image for criticism and see how this works out. If it doesn’t then a simple request to stop should be sufficient.
Another way this could be done would be the creation of a “In Depth Criticism” thread. In which people would post links to their own threads for other people to comment on. A set of rules could be stated in the initial post that explain the kind of comments we expect.
I’m game if any of you are.
This is a sample of some of my work. Check them out to see if we share the same interests in art. And by all means critisize and comment if you want.
http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=006799
http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=007501
http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=008387&p=3
It is not so much “you either have it or you don’t” as “you can either take it or you can’t”. I think most people, in general, cannot take it, that is “constructive” criticism. Because, no matter how you phrase such a critique, the person who cannot take it will not, nor have the capacity to take it.
As far as what sort of images appear on this forum, I would like to give my eyes and imagination a break. If it were possible to divide those images posted into categories such as “monsters & demons”, “insects and reptiles”, “dragons & dinosaurs”, “real people and landscapes”, “surreal and abstract”, etc., we would all be able to choose what we would like to see. I, for one am tired of releasing a painful sigh every time I come here to look. I don’t find most of the content interesting or appealing or worth further pursuit. Some categories I find painfully offensive and feel the worse for having seen them. Far too much of the content here has an incredibly “hellish” nature which I cannot tolerate. Eventually, I, as probably others will, cease visiting or make my visits very infrequent (news about upgrades & improvements). There it is.
Bruce. Gregory
Have you already become so old? I’ve never been quite so acutely depressed by a thread in months. Is this what we will all naturally become… rigid, cynical, redundant. These accounts belong to a different era.
Why bemoan these other happy threads, they are harmless and disclose a vibrancy and enthusiasm that is missing elsewhere and is something to celebrate, not rubbish.
This place seems to be frequented by kind people with varying levels of skill. As a group they are largely self teaching, self motivating, wonderfully resiliant and well meaning people. Would you have them serve you? Would you have them change?
In my opinion each of you are severe and stern, sour and astringent and display a disposition that would appear to be wholly incompatible with my ideals. That you seek out these same attributes in your peers? It is something I do not want to understand.
I have self-edited my post before anyone else can.
Loqutos
Unfortunatly, you are quite right Loqutos, this can be somewhat of a “boiling” subject. Just as a polite suggestion, why don’t we do a kind of “User-Locking” on this thread, and use PMs if we have more to say, instead of here.
honesty Gets You No were’s
you know if Pixolator posted a Pic and i said man dude that looks like a 6 year old did it.
you know how many people would turn on me over my (honesty )?
not worth it so i learn to Lie alot or was that spelled Lye
i keep friends better that way
oh hay all my stuff in good taste^^^ on above
i usley don’t respond to post that i think might turn into a thread of disagrements.
i just like lurking to see old members show there faces.
you can usley tell by the threads they trive on and this is one of them…
hi i see you i tHINK :rolleyes:
I am self-editing my posts before anyone else can.
Loqutos
Why must “criticism” be a dirty word. The only way we can improve is by evaluating our art and desiding where we need to improve. However, sometimes we need the opinions of other people because they are ideally more objective than we are. I’ve been on both extremes of the spectrum when it comes to evaluating my own work. I used to think that all I did was crap, then I started thinking that I was getting pretty good really fast. The point is that we usually are not very good judges of our own work, and the opinions of other people can be very useful. I understand that a lot of people are not interested in this kind of criticism and that’s fine. This forum is thriving the way it is now precisely because it caters to both the profesional and the amateur. We should not be try to exclude anyone no matter his/her skill level. None of us started making high quality art work, very few of us are capable of doing that now.
I don’t think that it’s a matter of having it or not having it. Making art is a skill just like any other, that requires hard work. But it’s a matter of what you want to accomplish with your art. If you want to seriously improve your craft, or even to become a profesional, then criticism is essential. But we should not try to impose this criticism to those who are not interested. We can work within the framework of the forum to get what we want: In depth criticism from like minded individuals. What we discuss among ourselves should not affect those who are not interested because we are going to critisize only our works in this way.
We might not share the same taste in art but we can help each other in those universal things that make good art. It doesn’t matter if you are doing a monster or a realistic portrait if your composition is bad, is bad. We could all help each other in color choice, anatomy, composition, and many other such things.
I’ve already stated of posible ways to accomplish this. If you think that they are not a good idea then please write your own suggestions.
To the moderators: These posts tend to degenerate into personal attacks and in the past the way that you have handled this is by deleting the whole thread. I understand where you are coming from but by cutting down the tree you are also killing the good with the bad. Delete the posts that you think are detrimental to the forum, but be selective please.
I am self-editing my posts before anyone else can.
Loqutos
I agree with you that there are some truly gifted artists who have great talent that has been worked to fine edge through hard work and practice. I also agree that few people will accomplish that artistic level. However, I do think that most people can accomplish a very good level of craftmanship if they work hard. Drawing can be learned. Anatomy can be learned. Painting can be learned. A digital tool can be learned. All these skills can be learned and mastered by most people if they have the interest and discipline to work hard. A lot of people who work doing commercial art are not great artists. (Look at your average comic book, magazine advertisement, video game package and tell me if you dont agree with this) They are good artists bu not great (far better than me of course). That artistic level I truly believe that can be accomplished by a lot of people with proper training.
Now back to the other artistic level. The level of the great artist. How can you ever be sure what you are capable of doing until you take that long hard road. I don’t think that any artist knew what they were going to accomplish while they were training. Talent is not an easy thing to measure. But I think that very few people in this forum will say that they have enough talent to become a truly great artist. We all would like to get to that level but we realize that we are not very likely to get there. But it doesn’t really matter, with whatever talent we have we’ll try to improve and do our art. Because we love to.
These posts do annoy me. I will admit, more than they should. Before I start, this is nothing against anyone in this thread. As it’s been said, this subject comes up often.
First off, what is wrong with having a place that “Everyone” can go without fear of being laughed off the net, slammed and embarrassed? A place where they can learn? Whether it is for a growing hobby, or in hopes of one day making a living with their art? The 121 request seems to work well for those that desire critiques, why is there a need by some, to critique people who don’t ask for it?
I have gone back to posts before my time. There I see some of our now “gods” of Zbrush learning as we are now. Some are still here, sharing their knowledge with us wannabe’s. Others have moved on to other sites to grow further in their field. As the original poster here stated there are MANY sites out there. Most I’d never post at because I know I don’t measure up to their standard. So I’d think if you’ve out grown zcentral, then perhaps that’s where you should be and allow the rest of us to enjoy the friendly family type atmosphere we have.
Why these posts annoy me is because I always end up with the feeling that some want to turn it into an elitist site… where only the best artist can post. And heaven forbid if a person of lesser skill should actually comment on a picture.
This is Zcentral… not Zee prison… everyone is free to leave when they are no longer happy with the group.
Enjoy.
Let the dreamers dream.