Ryan…Well i alway’s hoped that the guy who wrote all the cool Zshaders, Ofer i think ?, would tell us more then just : “The shaders work together to create a result” …i’m just a button pusher, with a lucky hand 
Lemo…i hope to download one of your materials soon
Bill…frankly i had my fill of skulls for now !
Odhinn…thanks
Ron …you are right Stevie made great images with primitives…but he was a man of the first hour - at this moment the great “gods” of the top-row are the one’s who already made their mark with Maya, or any other of the programs used in the industry !.. i don’t see the “old” Zbrush style -combining Ztools & primitives on this forum- very often !
But who knows what the newest batch of members will come up with !
Thanks for your waffling…hope your not bored by mine;)
Abyssis & Pixelsoul…same time ,same idea…thanks to you both

i found my metalman document and changed some material, killed the ambient light values an added some primitives and depht cue
jantim