Greetings, all!
There has been an excellent discussion going on in the Monday Night Challenge thread, but it has unfortunately started to overshadow the artwork being posted there. We’ve decided that it would be a nice idea to start this thread to continue that discussion, leaving that thread to its original purpose: artwork within the current topic.
Enjoy! And thanks for keeping this place so interesting. 
Good idea Aurick…and possibly to start a ball rollling…
Expressionism link http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/tl/20th/expressionism.html
The Fauves… http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/tl/20th/fauvism.html
Abstract thought portrayed visually. To be able to paint in this manner really depends on a great understanding of all facets of art. These genres are far harder to paint ‘properly’ than any type of realism. Balance of colour , form, breaking rules and formatting your own…ie making it work. Understanding emotion etc… However all can carry over to realism or vice versa.
It has been argued that Henri Rosseau (the conductor) was probably the greatest painter of all time…yet he knew little of art. What he did know was himself and his own self educated approach to art. The sleeping Gypsy, War…wonderful pieces.
Monsters…you will find very few…Maybe in the odd Goya painting. You will not be able to answer questions such as…where shall I put another horn? Instead you will be wondering …what can unify?, what can contrast?, for what purpose shall I use this form, this colour, this line? etc etc.
Sure a rusting tin can is a lovely painting, a skeleton a great sight, but they are only objects… to be able to take objects and enrich or imbue them with meaning, to imbibe, a far greater step. The symphony and the pop song.
To often I see the approach of basically thrusting an object on to a background, sure the object may be staged, but that is all. Give that object to say a window dresser, allow him/her to place it on a background in a window…the difference in this analogy for the object would be remakable (providing the window dresser was adept in their vocation).
That’s about minus a dimes worth.
Another great love…cubism <A HREF=“http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/gris/cafephil.jpg” TARGET=_blank>
Where the chair the table the man the cafe are one and the world cut off but outside.
Because the action of the man, table, cafe are a common purpose for all these things they become one, and the outside world another ‘one’.
<A HREF=“http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/gris/cafephil.jpg</A>” TARGET=_blank>http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/gris/cafephil.jpg</A>
http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/gris/gris.lavabo.jpg
Reduce them to get the full effect.
cool post, ed! I have read it several times … well-expressed and stimulating … it’s helping me to clarify my thoughts about composition
thanks also for the ibiblio link – this fall and winter I plan to visit more online galleries to catch up on my art education and inspiration
re: staging an object versus putting it in a context or composing a scene or poem:
for some reason, the shadow-box maker from Neuromancer [a novel by Wm. Gibson] came to mind … two or three objects juxtaposed in a box which somehow seem to evoke some elusive meaning (in that story it might have more to do with the perceiver than the maker)
this is also relevant for poetry, music, cooking, home decoration, fashion, astrology – ars combinatoria, or the art of combinations
a single object on a background might look like an item in a catalog, whereas interaction among additional elements (including the background) can make the scene more evocative and open-ended or spacious in some dimension, avoiding opacity and stasis
however, ZBrush is a magic art-box whose users have different intentions and goals … I can certainly understand someone expressing their joy at making something by posting it, even if it’s not museum-quality … and there are many computer-graphics artists whose craft is to model and texture individual objects
MNC does a couple of nice things: it nudges people to try out different technical aspects of ZBrush, and it gives them a project to work on that they can do just for fun – it’s part of the great chain of teaching and mentoring that I have seen since I joined ZBC last spring
There’s definitely room for other threads with a theme though, e.g. in homage to various cool artists or schools or pictorial subjects – but I’m hoping without a deadline
[some of the above is in response to the discussion on the other thread, and perhaps some is just my usual incoherent tangential rambling]
Damned, there was a wondeful Site with very beautiful galleries and numerous!
With some articles about beauty in painting, critics, theory etc…
Move or desapear …
Pilou
Ps Yep ! I refound it!!!
Moving indeed!
Bryan Yoder’s Art Gallery and Critic’s Corner
Have happy surfing and debates
This here is nice, so:
Looking back to all those years, trying to get somewhere where I could say “yep this is mine, this is me!” - it was frustrating sometimes. There were times where I had so many pics in my mind - only to find out that I was unskilled. Then again it happened that I sat on my drawing table (old school, I worked in this field long before our plastic/metal-boxes were able to do more then some weird calculating), and even though I had no plan what to do some kind of strange mechanism took over and suddenly I was half way through a new pic.
What I mean is: you need both, the crafting skills and at least a bit of vision. No matter if it’s abstract or realism - without this knowledge and some sensibility you end up doing Poser (NO offend to anybody, just my opinion!!).
Now, today it is easy enough to present yourself as an artist in the grafics-field. All you need is some nifty software (I am talking NOT about ZBrush or any of them more serious applications), and turn three wheels, flip two switches - and BINGO, your good old HP presents you with a hardcopied piece of “art”.
And, while it is a good thing, that art is now possible in every living room (alright, it was possible from that moment on when the first cave was decorated): how can you tell someone that presents you with his latest work from his “mauve-phase” that all he has done was ruin this nice piece of paper??
You simply get no additional skills or imagination as a upgrade when you go and buy some software.
That is why I liked Glen’s pencil-case that much: back to the roots, for good and in the middle of a phantastic piece of software!!
What about those drawers “abstract”/“real” (with all their different under-drawers??
People like to think in categories: “green” is for walking, “red” you have to stop, “Picasso - I can do that too (so it can’t be art :D), and besides all: it’s ABSTRACT”, an so on. All these drawers have some rules or codes of conduct to them - if they didn’t, well - they would not suit the customs of this system.
A good friend of mine (Prof. in English literature) will ruin his reputation, if he would comment a piece of art with “… I like it!”. No he is forced to not just like what he sees, but he will write some essay of how that piece of art blends with social, political and formal things. He can “describe” it, but if you ask him if he likes it???
What do I mean with all this? Well, I think we should not categorize art (the next logical question would be something like: “… and do we need this kind of art?”), but only make the difference in liking/disliking all those pieces of art all around us. Imagine you were five years old, full of emotions and curiosity: it is enough to feel good looking at the works of anybody. And, in doing so you will be able to do something worth the time you put into - just be yourself.
Ok, long speech and nothing is clearer 
- please fogive me, I will NOT do this ever again!! 
Now I know MTB’s been kindly running the MNC for several times in a row, although I thought the challenges were supposed to rotate from member to member at some point, like they used to.
How about handing it over to Aurick for the next challenge, to make it more of the official ZBrush challenge? After all, Pixolator used to set the ZBrush Halloween challenges. 
Of course, We can still debate the content of the challenge on this thread as has been decided. Speaking for myself, I’m just one to go with the flow, but I’ll chip in if an idea interests me. 
Thanx for this Matthew…As a sort of instigator, I felt badly about the possibility that the discussion MIGHT derail the purpose of the thread, but felt compelled to make the discussion possible, which is why I suggested MTB and I doing it elsewhere, and ‘Voila!’…You provided the space…I do have lots of thoughts on this, but since I haven’t had my cappuccino yet, I will leave it at this…
Thank you for starting a ‘context’ thread here…I see major growth for all of us as a possibility, and I’ll be back when my tissues are properly caffeine-impregnated… 
(Later, and fully caffeineated…)
First Havran, thanks for the Gibson reference, and that’s a great example…I live in the same city as Gibson, and I have copies of Neuromancer, Count Zero, and Mona Lisa Overdrive about 5 feet away in my studio as I write this…
As my membership number indicates I’ve been here for a while, and I still remember being puzzled when I first came to this forum, at the plethora of bumpy-skinned monsters everyone did with ZBrush. As a lifelong working artist, I thought it was like a detour, because surely if you had tools this powerful, they could be used to express practically anything, and since most monster pics seemed to only have (a)Rage or (b)Dementia as an emotional range, this puzzled the hell out of me…Of course, I understand the textural fascination, the cultural familiarity and ‘comfort zone’ of these sorts of images, but it seemed less relevant to me than the ‘feeling’ Ed discusses. They just didn’t have the range. Of course there are people who can do these very well, but given the limited emotional range, they would require a very sensitive approach to make them unique, one from the other…In a letter to a friend along the lines of this topic, I referred to the stories of ‘Grendel’ and ‘Beowulf’, two of the oldest pieces of literature in written form. These deal with the concept of ‘Monster as Outsider’, and could perhaps be imbued with some life with a thoughtful approach…
Now the reason I started the discussion with MTB in the first place was that I saw the idea of an abstract concept as a challenge, not only more ‘challenging’, but also that the monster makers could also participate as fully as anybody else…
This is inherent in the concept I suggested.
For instance, ‘Loneliness’. An abstract concept, an emotional state caused by isolation, either physical, moral, cultural…You name it. Now given this abstract as a beginning, obviously it would be perfectly appropriate for the depiction of ‘Loneliness’, if you were inclined to experiments in the depiction of Teratogenic variation, ('monsterism), then this would be a perfect opportunity to depict Grendel, of ancient repute, staged against an enlarged moon, on a craggy rock, with a warm looking farmstead in the valley below, a curl of smoke from the rustic chimney, and the sense of home, denied to this miserable creature, as the element of isolated lonliness to tie this particular monster to the theme…
By the same token, an Impressionist might isolate color, and arrange the balance to depict loneliness with a soft spot of mordant blue, surrounded by all the colors and shapes of Spring…
The ‘ABSTRACT’ concept has much more flexibility from an artistic point of view, than the tangible, hard-edged physical subject choice might have…
And as far as learning ZBrush goes, there is nothing about the abstract subject choice that restricts the tools used, the process used, or anything else. The ‘ground rules’ haven’t changed…The methods of approaching the subject have been broadened, the imaginative possibilities increased, and to me most importantly, the hand, the mind, and the heart have all been involved in the project…
Personally, I’m prepared to offer suggestions for topics, participate in those challenges, and enjoy every minute of the process! On the other hand, the ONLY reason this useful thread these guys started, the MNC, exists IS through the efforts of a group of people who get together on the IRC Chat, and that deserves respect, so I have no right to complain, and by no means was I doing so, when I started the discussion on the MNC…I was offering input only, as I hope others will do here on this thread.
I have always believed in ‘Context’, so thanks again for starting this Matthew, because in the time since July 2001 when I first came here, this seems like the most likely source of ‘Context Developement’ I’ve seen. (And I also think it will be informative as hell, and fun as well! …Rhyme intentional. It is Friday! )
Cheers, All!
hey SC: it took a while, but Neuromancer, Gibson’s poetry (“lunar concrete”, “the color of television tuned to a dead channel”) and the names of bands and their album titles in music mags gave me a huge insight into poetry and why I loved science fiction book covers but usually didn’t care to read 400 pages of sf prose --juxtapositions of two or three key words – distillations and evocations – in 1993 and 1994, I even copied and distributed little poetry leaflets and fake band flyers around town in Gainesville, FL
p.s. – at the time I was the lead singer of the fictional band Overmind Resistance
hey zerebrom: your post completely made sense to me – I can certainly say that no matter what vision I had in mind, the painting in the common world turned out differently
these are some good questions that you have raised – the same is happening in music as well as art – the tools of art are in the hands of the people – nowadays, beyond making your own party mix of other people’s music, you can make your own music on your computer with virtual-studio software and burn it on a CD or post an MP3 on the web – maybe music and art are becoming even more non-commercial, something more like cooking, dancing or poetry – a gift to other people or just something one likes to do – little wildflowers and melodies from our transitory human flowerboxes
hey Grub: [I’m] still working on that “opacity” hindrance
@havran:
what I said about art was meant for any kind of art - and speaking of music: I pity those poor souls that are content to have bass and drums beating like the shredder on that car-graveyard, all this with a tonal expression of I don’t know what. And: this is NO generetional thing. As an artform it might be ok (describing the absence of hope that is widely spread among our teens), but music - no!!
But, perhaps has my playing of anything with strings on it (for over 30 years now) ruined my hearing-abilities - with Townsend and Beck (to name a few) I think I am in the best of company !!
Uhm, sorry for leaving the thread!!
Hey Havran: I just want some friendly clarification.
“opacity” in the sense of over-concreteness, fixity, the claustrophobia of surfaces, lack of spaciousness – in the context of dissatisfaction with my own compositions
well, it might not be much of a clarification :rolleyes: – I think I am destined to be obscure as well as opaque
This thread needs a text break…
it sure does, and what a nice break it is – although I was trying to take a vow of silence until I coughed up some pictures
Not to offend or sound irritated but I will say it again for thoughs who missed it in the other thread. I do not pick challenges nor do I run the MNC…I only post them…and make a graphic for them. Since the 5th challenge (afer starting them up again). It has been a collective discussion in IRC about what to do next.
We also kinda stopped picking people to continue MNC with their idea because for one…not too many people show up in IRC anymore to pick fairly…and finally…we don’t want any other participants to feel as if the have achieved less by not being picked.
Tonight, I will be in there a while to talk about how we should ‘mature’ these challenges. I will be ‘suggesting’ that we have two levels of participation. One for new and intermediate users and one for advanced users. This will leave it up to the participants to decide where they fit best. I will also suggest that when we do start up a new MNC…we start up a new MNC-Discussion thread. This thread will be for input and suggestions for the next MNC to come…and so on…and so forth.
see yall later
First MTB, as I said when this all started, it IS the IRC crowd who are putting out the effort to keep this MNC going…
That alone demands that you guys shouldn’t take heat from those not involved enough to be in the IRC, among which I count myself…I’m not much on ‘Chats’.
But…I hope you DON’T do this ‘Intermediate and Advanced’ deal…To me, that’s just one more division…There is enough misplaced elitism in the world already. I would suggest you reconsider creating still another artificial division here…
The ‘maturing’ of the challenges on the other hand is a great idea, and having a regular discussion thread like this to get the input of any interested members is also a very positive step. You can do this without pigeonholeing, and subdividing groups here…Imagination in the choices of subject, and more range of expression, and choice of approach will do the job!
Stopped by during lunch to check stuff out…interesting…my input is that I agree with SC on this Mike. Rifts of elitist plague the internet art sites. I think CGtalks is doing somethign along those lines now as some of it is going on at Rosity to a certain degree. There have been rifts here from time to time since I have been a member and division resulted. The thing that attracts people to this forum from comments read and some that I remember making is that we are a good community with a mix of all skill levels. The maturing idea, sounds promising I also agree. That still is dependent on the group. In case people don’t know how this stuff happens is basically we have a good BS session of sorts most of the time and talk about everything under the sun or moon (depending on what time zone yer in). At some point during the chat before members have to leave (for whatever reasons…ie supper, sleep, kids etc) everyone starts blurting out their ideas. Then from that list of goodies we start forming more refined subjects on the challenge and finally vote on a finished idea. Yeah, sometimes we come up with some turkeys for sure…but other times we come up with some pretty decent ones. Mike posts the MNC logo and criteria for that challenge and we get on with it. There is no real committee or anything. We have some fun and hopefully everyone back on the ZBC forum likes the challenge for that week. Everyone learns from everyone. Now personally contacting someone like Mike in a PM to put in your vote for an idea of a challenge would be great ( if you cant make it to the chats). That way you get your input taken into consideration. But as the MNC split…I think that would not be a good thing. It would not be a community effort if we did that. kewl thread…thnx Matthew
Awesome…see that was one of the points of posting the ideas here. I whole heartedly agree as not to divide the MNC…If it means making ZBC and the MNC a tumultuous place then scratch it.
As for IRC being the only source of input…not anymore…with threads like this one.
Right on, MTB and Ron…
(a)The MNC Challenge is a good idea, and a fun one…
(b)It can be even better…
©A debt is owed to those who brought it this far…
(d)It’s time we ALL got involved to see just how good it can be…
Count me in, any way I can assist the process… 
Good thread. I believe we should have a discussion like this once in a while. I join the IRC chat whenever I can, but I am not there on a regular basis. I thoroughly enjoy the chats, even when they go astray(in my mind) ;), and especially enjoy the ideas discussed for the next MNC.
But with an ever growing ZBC member count it does seem essential that the next topic discussion spreads from the IRC chat to ZBC. Though it has been fun to listen to the various suggestions when on IRC, and I will miss that, more people need a say IMO. But this seems like something Pixologic should organize, as I think they have already hinted at will be happening in the near future.
It might be more static, with a vote for the next MNC subject, but everyone can be involved.
Or maybe, even better, we could start a european chat, at a more godly hour. That way it isn’t just sad european farts like me who chat away at 2 in the morning
Well said, TV Eyes.
MTB thanks for replying about the challenge. I would actually like to see the challenge run by Pixologic as it would then be completely impartial and not appear as if it’s run by one member only, who’s not a moderator.
Also, the challenge should not be exclusively set by chat members, which is putting boundaries between people who don’t go in chat and people who do.
This is Pixologic’s site and it would be official if a real representative of ZBC ran the challenge, as opposed to being run exclusively by just one member. No matter how you look at it, running the MNC is a privilege, since it empowers the member who has set it.
Either that or it should rotate between members of this forum like it used to do- that was a fair system. MTB, I actually recall you saying on a previous challenge thread that you would be passing it around after you’d ran three challenges. It’s now up to about six challenges!
As I said to you by PM, I don’t ask for myself but I’m sure many members would like to have a go of setting the challenge themselves. Give us a chance, man! 
Anyway, I really think it would be great if Aurick or Pixolator could take charge of an Offical Challenge. this will in no way harm MNC at all, rather it will probably make it even better.
MTB, you or anybody else who fancies starting up independent challenges or interest threads could still do so- for instance, like Kokoro’s thread. The thread by Kokoro has attracted a lot of participation.
I hope after this ‘Monsters and Villains’ challenge is up, Pixolator can surprise us with a ‘Spooks and Bogies’ challenge (or something) for Halloween. I feel a little sorry that the current challenge is eclipsing this ZBC Halloween tradition that Pixolator used to set for us. What a shame…
I also hope my humble opinion will be viewed constructively and not be taken out of context or as a reason for reprisals. It just seems like common sense. I enjoy posting here and if people can take the debate while keeping cool heads, more respect to them.
Here’s to an Official ZBrush Challenge, decided by members but run by Pixologic.
