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#35

To anyone who just finished reading through Crossbones’ post, make sure you click on each of the pictures there – they lead to very nice Quicktime VR turnarounds…

Crossbones:
Zack’s statement can be easily taken the wrong way – I don’t think he was saying we shouldn’t learn anatomy thoroughly, but rather that once we know it, we can simplify a lot of that information internally. He showed a way of thinking that was useful for him, and which I think will be great to have in the back of my mind as I go about studying.

#36

I would rather tell people to ignore the muscles you cannot see, the deep stuff in the forearm for instance. I think Zac is a great Artist and he knows his stuff, I just didn’t agree with his statement. Knowing the labels to the muscles and bones are very important they tell you what they do.

#37

great post crossbones!!! many thanks

yes, im definitely a student of anatomy…and your crits and comments really help…so far ive taken one figure drawing and recently 2 maquette sculpting classes…and none has really gone in depth to a large extent in focusing on muscle anatomy…i find that as i sculpt or model, i rely too much on surface detail and often rely heavily on reference material

i feel drawing and painting the figure and even sculpting it can only get you so far if you only focus on the surface of the figure…i find myself thirsting for the underlying principles of human form…muscle anatomy, and how it changes with movement of the figure…for this affects surface detail…trying to depict realistic human anatomy is difficult though, you cannot just focus on the principles of muscles alone, for body fat and other tissues are involved in forming the figure…

in relation to Jantim’s question about whether watching a sculpting dvd and following along with it digitally will help? in relation to workflow, yes, but i strongly believe most sculptors and even modelers will agree sculpting traditionally is much harder and one needs to train ones hands to make it register…doing it digitally will only get you halfway there…i have a deep and profound respect for traditional sculptors…imagine if they all went digital, we’d all pretty much be in deep trouble!

anyhow to say the least, i will definitely want to take rey bustos sculpting class someday…seems like hes a knowledgeable instructor indeed…but for now ive enrolled myself in one of karl gnass’ figure drawing classes…just need to take a break from sculpting traditioanlly for awhile and sharpen my other skills

and about zack’s comment on his dvd, i think he was just trying to get the message across that understanding how muscles connect in the human body and how they interact was the more important matter at hand

thanks crossbones and cntrl-z for this discussion, ive learned a lot from this

well getting back to zbrush, jantim…in keeping the shape of my mesh i usually
use this neat little trick so i wont have to sculpt the form back to proportion all the time

thanks all
anh

![subdivision.jpg|677x589](upload://35Az0DiaaPBZoTKVWNUCkFI1sJX.jpeg)
#38

With regards to rigging and animation

While its a well and good blocking out the form in Maya to get the general form ASAP before Zbrushing it up, surely you should make sure your base mesh can be used by a rigger as they specify.

Termintaing loops correctly and building a mesh sympathetic to the model’s movement and anatomy at the low res level may be less creative and take longer than simply creating a quick mesh with the correct proportions, but it will make rigging, blend shapes, UV layout and future tweaking a whole lot easier.

#39

gunslinger

well of course, edge loops are important, but you can always redraw them later, read the thread, youll understand :smiley:

anh

#40

Thanks for the reply, I’m trying to work out a way to concentrate on building our models ASAP and then worry about edge loops later on. This post is interesting.

We use low res cages (~11000 polys) with a prman subdiv node and then disp maps to flesh out more detailed parts of the model (not just fine detail general form too), so the lo-res model goes through a refining process before zBrushing. Ideally want to be able to get model approved, and then worry about loops on the lo-res form.

So could someone theorectically build a lo res cage mesh to correct proportions, as crude as they like make sure Uvs are good, Zbrush it so it looks great and have the freedom to make it look as good as they wish.

Then, I guess you could apply the disp map difference back to a newly built lo-res cage, with new edge loops . Provided the UVs are in the same location as the previous, it should pick up the displacements correctly?

#41

Hello Gunslinger, that approach should work. Similar to some of the processes I use. I think this might help you…

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=22300&page=1&pp=15

Taron does someting similar to what I’ve done for years with NURBS and that I’ve been exploring with SubD along with Displacement and Normal maps combined to geive greater detail at render time.Normal maps used to enhance and beautify the Displacement is new and does seem to offer a huge improvemnt.

For what I think you want, you will only get something decent if you combine the Displacement and Normal maps when rendering.

#42

gunslinger -

If you are saying, can I wipe up a model for approval and then, once approval is gotten, insert a new, remeshed model and generate a displacement map with that then the answer is not right now.

You can not change the vertex order of a model and still insert it into a mesh for displacement map generation.

Soon you will be able to remesh within Zbrush and that should address your problem.

r

#43

No, not change the base mesh in zBrush at all, but rather use the same disp map on a different, edge looped (if I can use that awful phrase) model in Maya.

Provided that the genral volume and the UV layout is the same, then the disp map should map onto the animation model OK in Maya.

I might do a test on a face…

  1. knock up the proportions correctly but very quickly and do a nice maya>unfoldUVs on it.

2)Paint it up in zBrush

3)Make another face in Maya (based on the old one) with correct edge loops etc, use uvXfer to make sure Uvs are same as old one.

3)Apply the resulting disp map back to this face model, should all work.

#44

sounds good to me. keep us posted.

r

#45

Sorry to take the topic off of Zbrush, I didn’t mean to do that.

Rey bustos class is not necessarily a sculpting class. Its an Anatomical study of the humans and all creatures alike. He’s not a sculptor and no one has to be to take his class. I would recommend taking his class or just talking to him via email. The DVD him and I are producing is a reference and should visually answer a great deal of your questions.

The only last thing I can suggest is about your female with the arms raised. Here is a drawing Rey did of his model Sarah. Look how the muscles are more closely together and gripping to the bones. Here is the thing about Zac’s statements, how are you going to associate muscles without names? Calling things shoulder muscle, back muscle and chest muscle doesn’t go very far when you are designing something like a creature or rigging a character.


click on the link to see the Flash movie

#46

This is very interesting to read and I like very much that link posted and also this one http://www.reybustos.com/03ra/ra.html

#47

Gunslinger:
This depends entirely on your base mesh, and how much displacement is going on.

If you’re talking about adding features only – a more sophisticated bump map – it should work as you describe.

But if you’re rounding out forms, those forms are compensating for how one mesh is smoothed, by default which isn’t based on UVs. It’s based on where the edges fall, so when you assign this map to a new edge structure, depending how low res your base mesh was should give you an idea what kind of unplanned deformations this is going to create.

If you bring the new-topology/same-uv model back into ZBrush, subdivide, and apply the displacement map there, you’ll at least have all your multi-resolution modeling tools available to spend a few hours fixing it by hand. The end result might not match what was approved, though, so you’ll probably have to resubmit.

But, yes. Ryan’s suggestion may not help with present deadlines, but it’s a good one regardless – when the new version of ZBrush is released, these problems should go away on their own.

#48

:grimacing: The most impressive modelling I’ve seen here in a while! (ever??)

Congratulations!!! And please keep posting!!!

#49

Hi Aaron,
I was in Meats’ fast track with you…
Forgive me for butting in on Anh’s turf but…heck no, take John’s class! There is nothing like the clay in between your fingers. I think the class is less than $500 and if you live close by…
It is a whole new way to approach life and your craft.
You can watch the DVDs all you want but until you get your hands dirty…you won’t truly “feel” it…
Traditional sculpting will add a whole dimension to your perspective on 3D.
It is a great outlet and a vital way to see & feel form.
Although I’ve never taken a class from John Brown…I have only ever heard great things about him and his class–and the students have produced really beautiful pieces.
(I had the incomparable and amazing, Ron Pekar from Disney…)
Anyway, Aaron…those are my 2 cents…
Hope you are well…
Jamie Bolio

#50

hi thanks for the info on the dvd’s my second question is this

im intresting in taking modeling clasess but not in computer
i want to get my hands dirty “clay modeling” so what would be the best approach to taking this classes i live in chicago,il unfortunally i cant travel to L.A I wish someday i could.
my dad just recently past away so know i gotta pay the bills and mortgage
so that’s why i cant travel cant live my family here all by them selfs.

i was furtunally enuff to go to college back in 2000 and took 3d max clasess then by working hard i was able to purchase brazil and zbrush i been modeling since than i want to really model people and organic shapes so i think clay modeling will really help me out.

1st what kind of clay is it that u guys use what is it call so i could buy it here in chicago. as well as the tools, maybe books on how to model.

here are a collage of things i model so far needs more work i know but i hungry to learn more about it. hopefully u guys will help me with the info so i could take it from there.collage.jpg

#51

Hi j0sev,
In response to your questions about sculpting…perhaps you should check into taking classes at a junior college or a local art association…even the Art Institute may have classes…
Call your City Hall and ask them about art classes…they are usually inexpensive…but the quality may not be great. You could offset the price of the class with the DVD, but I wouldn’t just get the DVD–I think it is really helpful to have an objective and skilled eye to look at your sculpture and tell you what is working and what is not…and what to do to fix it.
John 's class builds their own armature and the DVD probably explains it well…it is a difficult process to describe quickly–so I’ll just tell you to get small gauge aluminum wire, floral wire, aluminum foil, needle-nose pliers…or you can buy a ready-made armature from the art store for either a quadraped or a human…about $20.00.
John’s class uses a Chavant clay which is non-drying–$6.99 per 2lb block, here in LA. It is “NSP-Medium.”
I, however, love Super Sculpey. I think it is terrific…we used it at Disney. It can be baked and then you can have your sculpture made into a cast and bronzed, which I prefer. The big blocks come in fleshtone and sell for about $7.00 at Michael’s (a craft store).
You can get the tools at Michael’s or any good art supply store…I would get some of the wooden tools and some of the metal ones (they sell in little packs near the clay, for about $7 per 5-tool set at Michael’s)…and one with the fine point (like a pin) for detail. My top 2 favorite individual tools are: one metal one that is shaped like a triangle, with a bit of depth–the flat side is facing outwards like a shaver, and one that is a wooden knife-like tool to push the clay in with…
That is it…I have seen no books that I can recommend…sorry.
Check the Art Institute of Chicago…it is a great resource. You live in a wonderful, cultural city…someone there would know much more than I…
Good luck,
Jamie

#52

Hey j0sev81,
I live in Chicago too and have worked in the "real’ thing for years & years & years. A good place to study that is inexpensive and accessible is the Pallete & Chisel on Dearborn. Open studio workshops as well as classes. Nude models
and multiple workshops weekly. I used to sculpt from the models there 3 times per week for 3 hours at a time. Also have painting, figure drawing, etc.
A friend of mine, Susan Clinard, teaches a good figure sculpting class there. Evanstons Art Center also has figure sculpture classes. Both places should be on the web.
Good Luck,
shhark

#53

I’m also in Chicago, and I agree that Pallette & Chisel is a great place to go. ditto everything that shhark said.

#54

Well to start out I’ve never posted any of my work here , but have a library of over 4000 images I’ve collected over the last year from this site. But this was such an interesting thread I thought it time to post my WIP. In Zacs defense I don’t think what he said about remembering the names of the muscles is what he meant. I’ve been study and sculpting the human anatomy for 26 years and a don’t always remember all the names
Names are not is what is important for a visual thinking individual. Its is more important to understand the porportions, forms, how the muscles overlap and etc. etc.

Crossbones love your muscle overlay picture of Carpeaux Ugolino and his Starving Sons it has always been my favorite piece , one summer I went to New York and took over 800 pictures of it.

Chadtheartist Chad I am the guy you sent some pictures of your female head this summer thanks again.

Oh this is a model I am working on in Silo to bring into ZBrush and eventually output to 3D printing device Male.jpg