Nemo,
I don’t think ZBrush needs to go the HSDS route. Displacement is much more natural for the paint paradign. I was thinking that I’d like to see that type of HSDS is MAX (or other apps). Artisan is kinda there but not nearly so robust. One of the nice things about ZBrush is how quick and intuitive it is to attack a mesh. Its animation applications should likely be secondary considerations to this fact.
-nimajneb
ZBrush is great for roughing out low poly volumes. Unfortuneately, once a ZSphere model is turned into a mesh, low poly editing becomes somewhat troublesome. It’s certainly possible by masking and dividing specific areas, but, in my experience much more time consuming than using a dedicated polygon modeler like Lighwave’s or Nendo / Wings3d. Making a low poly, realistic human head, with proper edge loops, would not be worth the time.
Edge tools for mesh objects (like in Nendo) would solve this problem. These have the added bonus of being easy to use and understand. Perfect for ZBrush.
Unfortunately, I don’t believe this type of functionality is easy to implement, (and may even be blocked by copyrights and patents). So, for now, like Ken B and others have already suggested, ZBrush is best for roughing out volumes, while exporting to a dedicated polygon modeler to add edge loops is recommended, especially for objects like faces.
Hey there! 
If you want to see models…
Here’s a model I’ve got in the early stages(it’s waiting for displacement mapping). It’s my first real effort at this…perhaps you could comment on any flaws on it in your experience?
BTW…I don’t know if you want to make a model in zbrush and bring it into an animation package. But just to let you know that at the moment the animation ability in zbrush is limited…especially facial animation. But it’s still worth having “on your shelf”
cheers.
here is an example of zspheres+unmodified skin to make yourself an idea (the troll’s body took 15mns to make, and the head 15 seconds)
KenH,
Yeah, that’s basically the opinion I’m coming to. The topology control is too flakey for my wants I think. I do however like KenB’s sculpt it then resculpt it workflow. Going to look at that closer. As for your model, check the shoulders. Specifically pecs and delts. I’d call that area a bit sketchy yet for displacement. I like the mesh in the eyes, and the cheeks, but the mouth needs circles around it for better control of the lips. This looks like it could be a very expressive character. In the lower torso and the legs your got a problem with the lower abdomen transitioning into the hips. That big 5 sided pole right where the hip transition should be is the culprit. Thanks for posting this.
and
Sarum,
This is actually a pretty nice mesh. I’ve got the same issues with the shoudler transition I had with the previous. Aside from that though, it looks nice. The hip is much better, showing a good defined transtion between leg and lower abs. The head on the other hand looks like a boolean. That’s no good. Look back to KenH’s eyes and KenB’s mouth gotta get rid of all that polynoise introducted from the carving. Thanks for the post. Times about on par for roughing out a body form for an experience poly modeler (maybe a bit faster). I think the time payoff will come when you’ve got your topology down and you refine with ZBrush. Then again, I don’t want to downplay some of the talent I’ve seen on the boards. We can’t all be Bay Raitt however Let me see how this one progresses.
-nimajneb
Ken H, that is a great creature. 
However, it may be premature to make something now for displacement maps in the next update, in one respect.
Certainly, you will be able to apply a displacement map to your current mesh, and it will probably look great, in that pose. But to re-pose it, you will need to either move the points on this mesh, which would be fairly difficult even in ZBrush, or repose your initial ZSphere skeleton, which would cause you to lose all of the extensive point-editing that it appears you have done. However, in the next update there will also be new ZSphere effects that will further modify the mesh beyond what we have now.
Of course, the good news is that you can probably take your original ZSphere skeleton and add the new type of ZSpheres to it, so that your original work isn’t lost. And apparently, the new ZSphere effects should allow you to get an un-edited mesh much closer to your current final mesh without the point editing.
I bring this up also to help inform nimajneB about how the upcoming update may affect the mesh that gets created from the ZSphere model. I wish that Pixolator or someone would post more on what these meshes will look like.
What I really wish for is that the ZSphere model could be tied to a given mesh generated from it, so that you could edit point positions on the mesh, then repose the Zsphere model and not lose all of the point-editing you have done. That would be a helluva thing 
This is a great thread that is very much integral to the work that i do. I dont think that adding some simple poly edit tools would be too difficult. I would love to see Zbrush incorporate these types of advancements to make it ever more valuable as a tool for the computer animator. Good work guys.
GL
I was working my way through the Wings3d User Manual today and found this link which might be useful to those of you interested in this thread’s topic: Izware article
I’m glad you posted that Redon, probably the most clear and concise thing I have ever read in regards to Poly Modeling. Mandatory reading for anyone wanting to do 3d modeling. Of course it’s by Bay Raitt, some unknown in the 3D world… 
D.T.
Hi,
This thread has been in the back of my mind for the last couple of days, and what trikes me is this.
Everybody agrees on having an organized mesh, because it makes it easier to deform and animate your model. There’s several programs out there that have powerful vertex level modeling tools like nendo, wings3d, mirai, softimage, meshtools.
Instead of just copying those, I feel that zbrush needs to come up with a variation that fits the rest of the software.
In that regard, I’ve been playing around with an idea.
You know when people post those images of real objects and they’ve drawn a web of lines
on top of it which will help them organize the topology of their model?
What strikes me is that this part of the process is done as preparation to 3d-modeling. They do it before they start modeling.
What if this was a modeling step you did after you’ve generated your zsphere mesh.
You could use the already existing zbrush painting tools to draw the edgeloops you want on the model. The software could then change the topology of the underlying polys for you in an organized way?
The computer is better at it than most of us anyway. A bit like computer inbetweening.
I haven’t seen any software that has this feature, but i think it would fit well into the zbrush way of modeling.
The buzzword here at the moment is edge-loops. They are a powerful way of looking at the structure of a mesh.
The question is when to start working on these edgeloops. If you have an organized brain that can sculpt and think about these edgeloops at the same time, than that’s great.
However I like to model something, go with the flow of that and then take the time to reorganize and clean up the topology.
I think “sketching” out the edgeloops on your model and have the software reorganize the polys for you has a lot of mileage in it. It also fits nicely within the 3d-pain-ting paradigm of z-brush.
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this
e1
<font color="#949494" size=“1”> November 12, 2002 Message edited by: e1 </font>
if this is applicable by the pixologic team it would be really great. A topology map which could be drawn onto the model 
The idea sounds fantastic
That is a great idea about drawing topology. I had been “daydreaming” about the very same feature for some time. The ideal would be the ability to draw them over a sculpted model–one created easily the standard ZB modeling way, then “converted” into lower res polygons as per the drawn topology. You may loose detail, but that can always be put back in.
Back in the real world, it is a constant challenge on the brain to model for your artistic vision and keep track of the technical aspects such as the famed edge loops. Usually, you can rearrange the faces as you go, since most modeling packages are pretty flexible when it comes to that. But it still required rapid switching in the brain pan. That is why the best solution so far is to sculpt the model in clay, then translate that into the computer. Then next best solution is to model in ZB!
E1,
Painted edge loops sound like the next big thing. I visited the Izware forum yesterday and noticed many complaints that Nendo is no longer sold, Wings3d is half-hearted, Mirai has been discontinued, Meshtools take too long . . .
If Pixologic could implement your painted edge loops idea, ZBrush would become an absolutely necessary tool for 3d animators (instead of a somewhat unheralded tool for 2d illustrators). The number of users would escalate dramatically (much more so than the recent ZSphere rush :D).
Following the release of the next free upgrade, I hope Pixologic seriously looks into making these painted edge loopz a reality.
Pixolator, does this sound like a possibilty? You’ve made great advances in computer illustration, so far. What’s one more groundbreaking feature? 
Anybody else like this idea? Should we start a political campaign dovoted to making this happen? We can make signs and pickett the homes of suspected ZBrush coders. Painted Edges, or We Mow Your Hedges! Don’t be Poopz! Give Us Painted Loopz!
Of course, I’m exaggerating. Still, this would be the coolest program feature since . . . well . . . ZSpheres. So, dagnumit, it’s Pixologic’s only logicial next step for ZBrush .
<font color="#949494" size=“1”> November 12, 2002 Message edited by: Denture Cream </font>
while i was searching the forums for a posting of mine (which seems to be gone for good) i picked up on this thread which was very interesting in my opinion.
Maybe this will be interesting to those who didnt read it yet - and maybe a moderator might bring this to the pixologic team’s attention.
Especially the last concluding posts regarding the possibility to take control over the topology by ‘drawing’ a topology map on a mesh still sounds like a Porsche Engine to me 
bump
This post has thrown up so many fascinating ideas and opinions with regard to peoples percieved present shortcomings or strengths of ZBrush.
The future will certainly be interesting to see how Pix can balance the needs of the two target audiences for ZBrush and how these priorities are balanced in such a way that the application is also friendly to use for this is the main reason that people appear to enjoy organic modelling in the ZBrush enviroment. It feels like fun and fun can’t be undervalued in the creative process.
It’s also fascinating that the more the aplication broadens and develops the more ideas and wishes are thrown up for future inclusion. Each of us has our own shopping list of future dreams for the application.
Let us hope we all get our wishes answered. That is untill Pix comes up with something new that none of us have considered and we can all start over again wishing for even more. [/LIST]
I couldn’t edit my original post (it was too old), but if anyone is still interested in the Bay Raitt/Greg Minter article I mentioned on edgeloops it can still be found at http://www.ualberta.ca/~cwant/blender/derived-surfaces.pdf . Izware disappeared only a day or two after I posted the link.
Painted topology would be a dream come true.
Greetingz all, I have read the forum and instead of repeating what everyone has said, I would just like to share with you a few things.
Cyslice from headus is able to paint topology over the model. It is able to reuse this topolgy , by adjusting the old topology to fit the new model.( this allows the possibilty for blendshapes to be modelling in ZB and taken to Cyclice for one character animation.) It is also able to extract diplacement maps.
Exporting in Nurbs , Poly and Maya SubD(only within maya)
I follow the methadology of shape first then topology using the above software.
Using the above sofware models are created very fast and of a considerable degree of quality relative to work created in the same time in using other methods.
A head may take 3-4 hours to be completed using the workflow I am emplying now. Ready for animating.
I am currently undertaking a personal study in the human hace , it can be viewed here. http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=010525
I would like to mention that edge loops although easier to animatate are not nesesary and in most cases hinder the realsim during animation. A balance must be created between loops and other topolgies for realistic aniamtion.
My advice is to use Zb its fast and unbelievably fluid.
peace
Kircho--------------------
Kircho - that is a !very! beautiful head you have created there. Was any of it done in ZBrush? Cyslice is way out of my league $$$ though.
Hi , as mentioned in my post the base mesh is created in maya. Its a preresentation of a human head with no muscles and fat. The fatty tissue muscles and tendons are added in ZB.
I hope soon to have some pictures of the making but in the next two weeks I am full with UNI 
BTW there are other heads on page two, its a progressive study
peace
Kircho-------------
Whew, Guys - I just googled to find the old article from Bay Raitt and Greg Minter about Edge Loops, Sculpting and found this old thread here. I guess that’s where Nevercenter got it’s cool Topology Brush idea… j/k
Nice to see that you guys talked about such a “revolutionary feature” 2 years ago!