ZBrushCentral

Whats your usage for Hard surface modeling within Zbrush?

I haven’t done any hard surface modeling in [Zbrush](javascript:void(0);), but am curious as to the usage and workflow one would have for these features. I see some great work being done for hard surface modeling within [Zbrush](javascript:void(0);), but cant see why one would
choose to do this within [Zbrush](javascript:void(0):wink: when it can be done much faster using more traditional methods, plus you have the production ready model done.

As I said I [havent](javascript:void(0):wink: got to use these yet, so id like your feedback on the advantages and real usage for these tools, maybe some
things can be faster, but still [retopologizing](javascript:void(0):wink: such complex models
would need some time and accurate placent for edge loops, and a better [retopology](javascript:void(0):wink: tool set.

So this leaves illustrations, is this what these are intended for?

Thanks.

I’m a hard surface modeller, but have never found zbrush practical for complex HS work for the reasons you mention. I always viewed it as something you could use for spot work here and there.

The new update represent a shift in my thinking though, as dynamesh greatly improves the efficiency and practicality of HS modelling. It’s not quite there yet, but for the first time I legitimately see a time where it could be.

My own tests indicate the time differential is not so significant for me anymore. Not like it was. There are some things a traditional polygonal modelling process is always going to do better, there are things a free form approach free from concerns of geometry do much better. Relatively simple shapes are always faster modeled traditionally. Complex shapes with combinations of smooth curves and hard edges, not so much. Also, it is easier to explore different things in zbrush, than it is during a traditional modelling process. Traditional quad flows tend to force us into predictable designs and patterns in geometry. A free form process in Zbrush lets you think about form first and foremost, not geometry.

Modelling a replica of an established form as quickly and efficiently as possible is one situation. Designing something from scratch is entirely a different matter, and Im not sure I would choose to do this via traditional means anymore, unless I had a job that absolutely required it.

Retopo is still the great barrier to free form modelling as you say, and yes Zbrush needs better tools here. But I see that as true for any free form work, not just hard surface. Furthermore, it was to the point that if I wanted to work in Zbrush at all anymore, I still found myself retopoing even my hard surface stuff. Efficient geometry made in a traditional fashion is not good geometry for sculpting. Economy of polygons means some are going to be longer than others especially near the edges, which makes for poor sculpting. So I found myself building geometry in less efficient ways with more loops simply to facilitate detail work in Zbrush. And laying out toplogy is always over an existing form is generally much faster than creating it from scratch in a vacuum.

Creasing is another issue. In general, unless you have a traditional modeler capable of exporting zbrush quality hight resolution models, the only way to get your hard edges or smoothing groups into zbrush without having to slog though Zbrush’s native creasing functions (which is a truly laborious and quirky process for complex models, involving you to isolate polygons in any number of different ways, and sometime created small geometrical quirks where polygroups would not behave as expected), is to put a fine bevel along all your edges to reinforce the geometry, which again, is bad for zbrush sculpting performance, and bad for uses outside of zbrush. So I found myself retopoing regardless if I want to use Zbrush at all. Geometry created natively in Zbrush, depending on your technique can bypass the need for creasing or smoothing groups, and let you generate crisp lines in your displacement and normal maps without the hassle.

In the end, it comes down to how you want to work. I want to do hard surface work in zbrush for same reasons I want to do organic stuff. I could do organic modelling in a traditional modeller, but its not how I want to work. Even if the process was slower, I would still choose digital sculpting. The time I spend in my traditional modeler, is time I spend wishing I was already in my Zbrush stage. I want fewer barriers of technology between me and the form that I am shaping. I want to feel as if I am working with my hands as much as technology will allow. I want creative endeavors to be given to artists, not technicians. For hard surface, I want to feel like I am carving and detailing that form by hand, not having a computer do it for me with automated operations, or by pulling points with a mouse. I want to be able to open zbrush, and sculpt or carve any kind of form, with my “hands”. I believe in the Zbrush philosophy, and truly believe that before the end of the decade, if Zbrush and programs like it continue developing in the necessary areas, we will be digitally sculpting hard surface form as a first resort, not as an exception. Some people will always have requirements for exacting mathematical precision that will require a more traditional tool, but I definitely think that will be true for people that dont absolutely have to.

Thanks for your input Scott. I have seen some very impresive HS sculpts for character suits e.c.t, and think to myself, wow, what a shame its a few million polys, and what hastle it would be to retopologize to the standard as if I made it from raw geometry in a traditional modeler. I have made clothes for characters in Zbrush, but these have always been more organic. I guess id have to spend some time with these tools myself to apreciate them and their usage.

I have been concidering perchasing topogun, or other dedicated retopologizing tool set just so I can have this freedom in Zbrush. If it takes a little longer I can cope with a hour or so, but not a few days extra on a single project. Its finding a ballance between creative fun, and production time and results.

Thanks.

I’d be lying if I said I relied on ZB for heavy retopo any more.

I will mention that in the case of most of those semi organic/hard surface video game style armor suits, retopo isn’t really any more of a pain that it would be for any other type of figure. It’s not necessarily to draw geometry for every scrap of detail. The form is still largely organic, and normal or displacement maps will catch a lot of that detail.

Either you believe in the merits of a free-form/retopo work process or you dont. But if you do, in a lot of cases, hard surface isnt any more of a pain to retop than anything esle. It’s worth pointing out, that at some point everyone was making the same argument you make about retopo-ing for any kind of character, HS, or organic. The argument was always, But I can do this faster in X". But now, everybody is doing it. Evidently the process pays dividends for people that arent as easily quantifiable as raw speed. Technology sprouted up to support that workflow, and is improving all the time. Once again, Zbrush changes the nature of 3d.

My current project I’m afraid, will be something of a pain to retopo, if I decide to. But like I said, I can retopo that geometry faster than I could have designed it from scratch with a trial and error discovery process. You can get a peek of it here, in a thread discussing the merits of dynamesh, and what it has added to Zbrush’s modelling power:

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?161836-What-is-the-point-of-Dynamesh

Evidence of Zbrush’s increased modelling power with the new tools is surfacing daily on the forums, with quality HS pieces coming in every day. Traditional modelling tools are perfectly suited for accurately constructing and editing topology. If someone says to me, “model this exact truck, to these exact specifications”, they are the obvious solution. But they are poor tools for artistically exploring form and design. If ones job allows, they might find themselves willing to pay the price for being able to work in a more artistic fashion, and discover form solutions that they would not have seen before from thinking so much in terms of the geometry they are building it with. And that price is less and less with every successive ZB version.

even as a Hobbyist, Zbrush is the best investment I ever made. I have been using Zbrush off and on since 3.1 . I am a pro by no means, but it has been fun to play with even at my amuture level of use. Each upgrade being free has been just incredible! In a world where software updates can cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars, Pixologic, in its greatness has granted us with an ever flowing spring of Inovation for just our initial investment. Which truely is a great price! I had to save for some time to buy it, but it was well worth it. Now, the only money I put into Zbrush is in training via Books and web training sites!

Thank you Pixologic for your Hard work and generous hearts!