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Sneak peek #1 of ZBrush 4R2

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#181

…the truth is that there is nothing that is set in stone and retopologizing is after all a thing that can be solved by hiring a Junior artist

Well it’s a mighty nice thing that those of us who wish to have (good) retopology in a sculpting application like zbrush have an extra 20-30k laying around to hire junior artists for a year to do it for us. I suppose the golden solution is still to purchase them a license for 3dCoat or topogun to do this as well?

To be honest I don’t quite get what you’re saying when you say things like ‘and this is why i rather see Pixo perfecting the tool rather than going in too many directions…’. Many people are looking for the ability to create solid meshes. It’s been part of the program for a while now, but has been neglected to the point where it has become so cumbersome and primitive. I would think, and I’m not alone here, that taking an older existing feature and modernizing it would be more inline with ‘perfecting the tool’ compared to actually going in more directions (which later focuses such as BPR, timeline, etc can feel like). These things exist to help keep us in zbrush longer or to let us do the task faster with it, retopo should be no different.

#182

hey Cryrid :slight_smile:

no, im not suggesting you spend 30 k a year hiring a Junior Artist, while i do suggest some young digital artists could get their entry ticket in a major production that way just like roto artists are usually artist that will evolve into comp artists (im sure that if you were a Junior Artist you will be happy about this?) … and i do understand the need of better retopology …im just saying that Pixo took by surprise the entire industry when creating a modeling paradigm that needed some time to get used to because no one saw that coming… i also think there are some shapes and forms that are still today difficult to achieve even if Zbrush has made them easier in many ways.

it makes sense to me that Pixo explores those ways and make it much more protected from competition than spending ressources in something that u can do yourself if you cannot hire a 30 k year Junior artist for 100 usdollars right now buying Topogun and doing it yourself…

again, dont get me wrong, if Pixo comes with a better retopo tool this is more than welcome i am just saying that this is not the core of the problem nor the core of the revolution…this is a half empty half full glass question…when a lot of people between V3 and v4 were asking for better retopo Pixo delivered again new modeling paradigms like Zketching, shadowbox , clip and trim brushes…not perfect i know but quite honestly no one else in the industry delivered something similar and retrospectively i am quite happy that they focused on that rather than retopology tools…

again and again retopology is

A) not such a big deal as lots of industries do not need this (rapid prototyping, illustration visualizaition etc)

B) not such a big deal either if you are a concept artist or even a production artists as lots of softs like Maya or Max have modeling tools and plugins that make retopologizing quite easy today too(Nex or Graphite for example)…(remember that time saved in preproduction and design equals more time for production modeling anyways so at the end of the day production wins)

C)when it comes to humanoids or bipeds or anything like that quite frankly i hope you are not even retopologizing at all as you might know that you can simple reuse the same mesh over and over again this being even faster than any retopotool ever made …we use this in the industry quite a lot and i dont think i have ever remeshed a hand since quite a long time now or a face for that matter.strangely enough the same does not apply to arbitrary shapes like a car…as those shapes are arbitrary and need to be rebuilt every single time…

D) technologies evolve…the human artistic input of designing form wil probably never die on the other hand the topology as we know it might dissapear one day and investing on that is the most precarious thing…just like 10 years ago hundreds of hours spent on building Nurbs patches will today be considered no less than ridiculous maybe very soon retopologizing will either become automatic or irrelevant all together …just like maybe (not sure yet) UVS days are numbered since Ptex appeared…

A film Pipeline is usually a highly specialized pipeline with specialized artists…when it comes to modeling and shape we should point at our real “ancestors” in this industry and those are the physical model makers like in Weta workshop or the ILM workshop…those who made us dream with their sculptures and spaceship models did have many construction constraints but also some advantages…believe me that no traditional sculptor will ever understand why on earth you will have to model everything out of quads…a perfect all quad grid is the computer equivalent of a chicken wire…ask then a traditional creature sculptor to get rid of his additive and sustractive clay workflow and force him to create using pliers and folding a chicken wire and see what he can come with…also a real life sculptor does not have to guess, cheat or simulate light to judge the detailing or shape of his creation so any step in the direction of instant shape feedback is also welcome

total freedom of sculpting any shape is the main goal of a modeling package IMHO… concave, convex adding or substracting …until this is not entirely solved there will be room for improvement.

Pixologic s trademark is not the brushes the UI or teh ammount of tools…the single most important approach has always been to desobey production and try things in a different way, thinking out of the box and that is the most invaluable thing even if sometimes is not perfect and a bit of a hit and miss.

I support them in their company philosophy and design and teh same goes for products like 3dcoat that despite their very humble beginnings are the ones who has more vision than the big developpers today…they are more dynamic and responsive .

lets try to think outside of the chicken wireframe please…

if you have worked in the industry for long enough you would have notice how uneven the developpment of industry tools are…this is totally due to human decisions of what should or what shouldnt be the standrad or the workflow…this discussion reflects the same problem…

there are many examples of this…for example Renderman was very optimized for Nurbs forcing many artists and pipelines to stick with them and this leading to huge ammounts of work that did not improve the final output until Pixar decided to emphasize Subdiv surfaces…and they became the norm when in fact other soft had subdivs already but were ignored because not labelled “industry standard”…there are tons of examples like that of arbitrary development in your favorite tools that explain that Maya for instance still dont have symmetry working for everytool when i was able to do this in LW 10 years ago…was the technology not there or more likely someone decide to invest time in some other feature?

its a healthy debate…you push for better retopo, i push for more modeling tools first…ideally we will have both yay!

#183

Sense ver .95 at least;)

#184

@gasoil
You’re out of what we’re trying to discuss here, I’m afraid so.
And this “is after all a thing that can be solved by hiring a Junior artist” makes me believe that you’re trolling in a most offensive way. We’re trying to be artists here, sir, not bosses or money dreamers. A humble great, traditional sculptor knows his tools, loves his armatures, things like these if you know what I mean. A fast retopo is a great tool for a digital sculptor. Retopo for animation is another matter.
So people is asking, waiting, for a decent retopo solution. Pixologic is ready to upload the new sculptris as well. You all probably know and waiting for this…
Meanwhile…
A nice render engine is always welcome. So lets see if BPR is one decent such app. It doesn’t look so great though. Hdri lighting? I can’t see this. Can you? Reflections only?
You can’t set up a simple scene (2-3 figures) with this perspective camera. Better avoid a simple ground plate… But we’ll have some great fun with this… Why not?

#185

Wow. I’d hate to see this thread go in an uncivil direction. Although I come from an entirely different perspective when it comes to Zbrush, I believe gasoil has a right to his opinion and I don’t believe there is anything that resembles “trolling” in his post. In fact it’s enlightening. He/she obviously took some time to compose it and I respect that.

As far as his comment on junior sculptors - didn’t great sculptors/artists take on apprentices to grind their pigments and prepare their canvases, etc. :confused: Today perhaps they retopologize models for those who’s artistic talents and time are better spent making art.

Zbrush is a jack-of-many-trades kind of product, so we all want to push it in a direction that suits our own needs best. I have opinions about the direction I’d like to see Zbrush go, but realistically I can not see the bigger picture, industry competition, the amount of resources needed to take it in any one direction, and the payoff in relation to the time it takes to implement features that might soon be obsolete. Often the fact that another program already fulfills the need is enough reason to NOT implement the feature, since the market may just not be large enough to make the effort profitable.

(Again, I stand by my hope that Pixologic gives some us reassurance that they will fix what did once work in Zbrush and is now broken.)

#186

lets try to think outside of the chicken wireframe please

Look, we’re fully aware zbrush is used by a wide number of artists for a number of different reasons, but did you ever stop to think that we’re putting in requests for what we’d like to see based on our own uses before writing a novel insisting we don’t know what we’re talking about? You may dream of a future where one day good topology and textures are no longer needed and we’re free to do whatever we want with virtual clay, but that’s not the current reality many of us live in (and I’m guessing will still have to put up with for another 5-10 years at the very least). All the walls of text in the world aren’t going to change that, and hiring junior artists or purchasing other sculpting applications instead of zbrush isn’t a good option for those of us whose wallets are not padded with cash (the suggestion even seems counteractive given a forum like this exists in part so that we can help suggest things we would like to see in the program).

#187

This is not a feature request thread – it has been completely hijacked… so no, his “wall of text” is just as appropriate as anything else in here that isn’t talking about the new rendering features.

The gross sense of over-entitlement that pervades the online culture always shocks me – in the real world the only choice you get is to buy another product, and the only voice you get is how you spend your money.

#188

Cryrid

as i already said i totally get your feature request, i said it is a good thing never said the opposite…there are 24 hours in a day and any dev team has priorities… to you is that, to me is other things im not invalidating yours im just expressing mine and also paying tribute to a team that is focused on trying to bring new things that nobody thought about because too busy reproducing the same processess over and over again please respect that.

Michalis

that is a new one…you just introduced a new iteration in an already long process…topo for sculpting…i guess u are talking about retopo to avoid stretching of polys because they are unevenly placed or not enough…well this is due to the surface nature of the tool…tesselation on the fly (like sculptris) or Voxels (like the process that happens in the BG when u use Remesh) eleminate this all together…tw NOTE that Remesh is a one bottom Retopo solution that is not ideal in “edge flow” for animation of realtime playback purposes but solves many strectching problems already so there you go this techs are available and downloadable right now…no need to do it anymore yay!

the poetic view of a traditional sculptor loving his armatures to justify all this is a cute one and a severe symptom of “stockholm syndrom” when you end up falling in love with the guys that kidnapped you and equals to me saying how much a painter loves the smell of paint in his atelier until he is diagnosed with lung cancer…emotional, true yet irrelevant in the end sorry…the same syndrom was prevalent in the industry when TDS were backing up the use of painful Nurbs patches because Nurbs are and i quote them “more accurate” there is a word for that in psychology when you find the right arguments to justify your own pain and its called “rationalizing”.

if you love retopologizing (or rationalizing for that matter) please go ahead and have fun…personally i hate it after having to do it for so so many years…so the bottom line is i def would love some auto retopo tool…wait even better i def would love there was no need for it altogether some day and i still need some modleing tools that are the core of the modleing process instead and are missing.

Nancyan

you totally nailed it and with less words thanks…i was just backing up my views with specific techs and workflows of the past as examples…you are totally right.

for those that got bored half way in conclusion i support better retopo tools or even better no need for those in the first place.

peace

Please dont take this things as Trolling…im just trying to go to the core of the problem and humbly give my feedback on past present and eventual future so that we make a bold statements rather than shy baby steps…this is how Pixo surprised everyone and i hope will still do.Backing up things with “politically correct” or emotional response is not helping…Junior artists are a reality of the industry not my personal invention and there is no clear definition of what that is but between us i will say that a Junior can easily skip the junior step by concentrationg on producing amazing shapes and designs while the opposite is not true…ive never seen an amazing “topology artist” land a lead position ever.Again topology is a necessary evil and anything that will ease that pain welcome.

#189

the squeaky wheel gets the grease, if people wouldn’t complain then changes wouldn’t be made around those complaints. Complaining is hopefully going to make this software go in the direction that benefits the vast majority of us.

Also I don’t believe my sense of entitlement is unwarranted. I spent a lot of money on this program, just because autodesk is the devil, bent on having a monopoly on this industry, doesn’t mean that companies that don’t follow that mold should go unchecked.

I think pixologic is an amazing company with great intentions, but I want some useful retopo tools, and me saying that and others saying that might just give them the hint to go along and focus on that path.

#190

I’ll sound like a bloody arse for saying this but I’ll do it anyway.

FIX THE BUGS!

That is all…

#191

Can we have a feature that makes clients pay for your work within 30 days?

#192

gasoil, and other friends, please relax, I don’t need an apprentice after so many years in sculpting and painting. I’m not like this. People is asking for something better than remesh. You can’t remesh a hand or thigh-hip area (lol). Or even a mouth slightly opened. Topology of remesh tool isn’t decent at all.
3dcoat and sculptris are great tools, the first one the best in auto-topology. A 3 min retopology using some loop guides is all I’m asking. And I use it as many times I like. Because:
I can feel free, do all sculpting using voxels or dynamic tessellation (sc) but I have to build my cage after. I prefer to build the cage first and find a way to freedom after LOL.

But I was talking about this thread… right here. What’s happening with this?
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?t=96408

And, yes, gasoil, you’re trolling a bit when asking for apprentices instead of asking for a better application. This wont help you to be a better artist. You misunderstood what I said about traditional tools as well. Predictable.

#193

love it already , specially— free to all registered users :slight_smile:

#194

Michalis ,

i have nothing against re topology (i said this many times but you seem to try to find an angle at any cost here)

why dont you spend some research time instead and see that the title “Junior Artist” is advertised in many major studios…are they Trolls? did i called them trolls when they hired me?

and guess what, and i hope you are seating here because there is even worse! there is “work experience” OMG! unpaid work! i am just waiting for you to reply and say that i am asking for slaves…come on…

You win…i really hope now that Pixo does a better job at retopo so you can move on from that in fact just to keep your hopes high remember that this is sneak peak 1 and that means that this features are the least spectacular probably.

i personally hope that if they do improve retopo , they also do much more than that though…does this sound better? i dont want to hurt your feelings really it breaks my heart… where is this world going when we have to call fat people “big boned” or a world where i cannot talk about the reality of production TODAY with Junior artists in production? talking about that doesnt make me a troll sorry but if you wish to call me a troll please go ahead be my guest.

Maybe i should come with a PC term for that what about “financially challenged artists”

i dont know in wich world you are living my friend but i am either a Troll or you simply need to man up a little and take reality as is not as you wish it was.

peace out

#195

Can we have a feature that makes clients pay for your work within 30 days?

+1
or… pay anyway :lol:

i dont know in wich world you are living my friend

in this world, unfortunately :slight_smile:

#196

Funny statement-:smiley: but true. I don’t know why ‘most’ (not all, but most) clients have always looked at artists as unprofessional workers (not career minded). We are all career minded. We hone our craft through years of schooling, practice and continued education in the field. Just like a lawyer or doctor etc would do. They are professionals. Were no different. We have a particular skill set that their cousin ‘bobby Joe’ just can’t pick up and start doing on the fly-;). We demand RESPECT darn it!:confused:

Professional:
–adjective

  1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.

  2. of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.

  3. appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.

#197

Sheesh! Why does everything turn into a fight round here lately? You people really need to understand that typed words can’t contain tone or inflexion, so sarcasm and irony are difficult. Try to assume that the words you’re reading are meant in the nicest possible way!

Lets face it, if you’re here you have a lot in common!

Every user will want their concerns addressed in any update, but unless you want that update sometime after Xmas 2017 you gotta understand that only so much can be done at one time, obviously Pixo wants to make it the best, cheapest, easiest to use app out there, and have it done by next thursday, but guess what!?
:stuck_out_tongue:

#198

Hi Gasoil Thanks for your long reply ! Much info there…

Well voxel technology is there, but sculpting in ZBrush was conceived around polygons concept, so is Mudbox.
The only cheap app right now i see implementing voxels and other artists oriented tools is 3D Coat.

The problem IMHO is that Voxel are still a resource hog, in facts even 3D Coat is still slow compared to the awesomeness of sculpting in ZBrush right now. In the future maybe developer will reach to optimize it till a very efficient level, but right now it is not.

I perfectly know that polygons is old technology, but as i said: at the end of the day, still 3D traditional apps like Maya, XSI, Houdini, Lightwave, C4D and more use polygons to produce animations in their environment. They also have polygon modelling tools. Now this still is old technology coming from the '70 ies if not before, but still we have it in 2011. So, for modelling purposes we can obtain results in different ways: Subpatch /polygons, nurbs, or even Voxels, but at the end for VFX, polygons with optimized meshes is what counts the most still now, and in some degree even NURBS are still there, as you explained so well.

So what ? we could use Voxels , but still there’s the need to end with polygons/subpatch at least, at the end of the day, to export those in Maya or whatever app and rig/animate/render…

If in the future even traditional 3D apps (I call them traditional just because they use old technology as a base) will be able to animate Voxel or similar technologies, well we’ll see a real revolution. As it is now, ZBrush is still a companion app for those traditional ones, and even if its based on polygons it gives many possibilities to artists to create better.

Finally i’d say this,: the best tool is the artists himself.

#199

I totally agree with you nemoid.

Pixologic is a smart bunch of people, i wish they just enable us to be able to paint within pixel space. Topology tools and animation previews is nice but for me the best topology tool out there is super cheap, dedicated and very capable. (Topogun).

But if we can sculpt in 3d with an enormous amounts of detail and have various options for how it will be represented in package xyz it would just make sense that having the same ability to texture in such a way, with a lot flexibility.

Thing is i would stop asking if they think they cannot implement it because of the way rendering working within zbrush, but i doubt they would ever say it is impossible to do, or implementing it would greatly affect the entire package. But i would prefer them to say, so i could stop expecting it, since texturing your model is something just as important as modelling and with spotlight, zapplink, goZ I they know this.

Maybe a ptex painting system might the way for us. If so, i welcome it, subdividing textels instead of polygons is sure to have a lower overhead and then you can convert/export the maps as ptex files or your prefered 2d format. Again, i dont know if such a thing is possible.

#200

Very true. I can think of some artists that are most definitely tools.