ZBrushCentral

re topology

Hello,

A noob question again here.
I’ve recently found out about re topology, and it seems like I can use topogun, maya, or zbrush to retopo.
However, I am still confused about it.

My work flow is, create a model in maya, uv map it, import it to zbrush, sculpt it with more details, create normal map, import it back to maya, and apply texture, etc.
Now, I’ve found out that people just create a very simple base mesh, import it to zbrush, sculpt it, import back to maya, and uv mpa it…
1.When do you retopo your model? before create normal map?
2. Can I retopo my model which is already uv mapped?
3. What software are you guys using? maya? zbrush? or topogun?
4. What is the benefit of retopo? I’ve been just following online tutorials, but I have never seen any tutorials that show how to retopo or explain about it.

Please give me advice on this.

Thank you.

Retopo comes in handy when you are starting a model from scratch in ZBrush and don’t want to bother about topology while you are sculpting. When your sculpting is done, you create a new streamlined topology via retopo and then you create UVs for texturing. That is, if you need a clean mesh anyway. For several puposes you don’t necessarily need a clean mesh like for illustration or concept sculpting.

Thank you for the reply.

I somehow understand that retopo is way to show high details on low polygon model.
Lets say that I create a game character model, and I import it to zbrush and sculpt it with details. When I import the model back to maya, the poly counts are too high due to all the details I put in zbrush. So I retopo the model to make the poly counts less than 10000, but show the high details.
Am I correct?
I just can’t understand how to show all the details on a game model(under 10000 tris)…
I attached a link to explain what I can’t understand…
If you look at the link, all the game models look like high poly models but they are under 10000 tris, which is amazing.

>>>1.When do you retopo your model? before create normal map?
Final topology comes before map generation. UV’s are what connect the 3D topology to the 2D maps (normal, texture, displacement, AO, etc.) The UV map tells the map generator how to relate polygons to the flat map, so whatever final topology you model needs to take should happen before maps. Once maps are generated, you can sub-divide topology, but the arrangement of the polygons needs to remain fixed.

>>> 2. Can I retopo my model which is already uv mapped?
Not and keep the UVs. In general re-topology breaks the relationship between the UV map and the polygons. It is advisable in almost all cases to create new UVs to go with the topology.

>>> 3. What software are you guys using? maya? zbrush? or topogun?
I do retopology primarily in ZBrush and Modo. Modo also lets me create a hand-flattened set of UVs. Silo works equally well to modo in this respect and has some pretty nifty retopo tools. I’ve just started using Topogun and have been pretty pleased with it.

>>>> 4. What is the benefit of retopo? I’ve been just following online tutorials, but I have never seen any tutorials that show how to retopo or explain about it.

There are three important reasons to retopo. Reason #1 is sculptural. It is easier to sculpt with the “flow” of polygons than against them. In other words, top-level sculpting is easier going across or up-down through several quads than diagonally which tends to break up the stroke. You can get around this by subdividing smaller, but that starts to get expensive in polygon count. Which brings us to: Reason #2 is about polygon count.

In the heat of sculpting, particularly if we started with some sort of ideal form like a sphere, we may find we have too many polygons where we don’t need them, such as the forehead and too few for the ears, around the eyes or the mouth. Retpology allows us to set up our model to even out the use the polygons where we need them to make our models efficient (e.g. maximize detail where we need it without exploding polygon counts too much.) Efficiency means we can maximize what we can get out of computer hardware. Efficiency is very import to Reason #3, Animation.

For animation, we have a couple of issues. First, we want our basic meshes as simple as possible, but still capable of carrying the detail we want for the character at the distance the character will appear from the camera. This makes it easier to manipulate in the computer as we test animation and get feedback. It’s lot easier to get feedback on a the motion of a 5000 polygon base mesh than 5M polygon mesh. This realtime feed back is important to keeping the animators workflow efficient. The second issue with animation is that we are bending our models with “bones”. The algorithms that make bones bend our models need models that are both efficient and organized in a way that makes the bending easier. For mathematical reasons, this often means that we want fairly straight flows of polygons/polygon tubes parallel to the bones (or armature) of our model. This allows the subdivided polygons to flow around the bend in a realistic way, rather than pushing around unevenly and ultimately non-organically.

>>> I just can’t understand how to show all the details on a game model(under 10000 tris)…

For game models, we have a whole pile of tricks at work. We have to have relatively simple models so they can be animated in real-time. We cover them with efficient, but optically convincing maps that give them lots visual detail. (Each polygon can have many pixels worth of paint from the texture map on it.) To further simulate physical texture, we use bump and normal maps, which when rendered react to the simulated light as if there more is texture than the actual polygons of the model. This is essentially what we’re doing when we’re creating a normal map of a high-res model and projecting it onto a low-res model in Zbrush. Displacement maps are similar, but they work not by simulation, but the renderer in real-time divides the big polygons into small polygons and displaces them according to the displacement map (this is referred to as micro-poly displacement.) Because this requires much more calculation, it not used as often in real-time game engines. Lastly, to create more of an illusion of crevices where dirt and dullness collects, we use tricks with ambient-occlusion maps and diffusion maps to artificially darken fine details that fool the eye into see more crevices and cracks than is contained in the actual model. Other maps, such as specularity can be manipulated to enhance these effects further.

-K

Thank you so much for the detail answer, Kerwin.
I mean I really thank you to write all the answer for my questions.
Since I am a self taught without any art back ground, it is really tough to do this all myself. All I can do is asking questions on internet, and you gave me really clear answer.

Since non of my models came out how I wanted, I am thinking to change my workflow. I have never don retopo so I am thinking to try it.

  1. Create a low poly mesh in maya
  2. Export it to zbrush and sculpt it till I am satisfied.
  3. Retopo it in zbrush (I don’t have any other softwares except maya and zbrush)
  4. Import it back to maya and uv map it.

Can this work flow work?

I also would like to know whether zbrush is good for hard surface modeling. I am thinking to create a hard surface model next time, and it seems easier for me to just make everything in maya than using zbrush.
If I create a hard surface model in maya, can I retopo it in zbrush?

Thank you.

Your workflow might look a little more like this:

  1. Create a low poly mesh in maya
  2. Export it to zbrush and sculpt/subdivide (e.g. add levels) it till I am satisfied.
  3. Retopo it in zbrush (I don’t have any other softwares except maya and zbrush)
  4. Either add UVs in Zbrush (such as PUV tiles) or export the low-res model (level 1) of the retopology back into Maya and create UVs. Re-import the the level 1 model into Zbrush.
  5. Generate my Normal/Displacement Maps, Texture Maps in Zbrush and export them as PSDs.
  6. Export my level 1 (if I made the UVs in Zbrush).
  7. Import my level 1 and apply my Normal/Displacement maps and texture maps.

Note, you need to create UVs before generating maps. You’ll then apply the maps (either normal or displacement) which capture all the detail your created in Zbrush. You then apply those maps to your low res model that has the same UVs as what you generated the maps from.

Another note: We tend to use the phrase “level 1” and “base mesh” pretty freely. What we are talking about is the lower resolution mesh that we will use in Maya and other programs outside of Zbrush. The high resolution sculpture is usually a subdvision (multiple times) of this base mesh which holds all very fine or “high frequency” detail of the model. This is what the normal or displacement map will capture and tell Maya’s render how to recreate the image (or micropoolygons in the case of displacement maps) of the more detail model on base mesh.

There are several hard surfaces approaches. If you build your hard surface model in Maya, then you will likely just use ZB to add details to that model and is unlikely you will need to re-topo/re-UV the model. This will save you time. You can also construct hard surfaces model from scratch in Zbrush (see the ZB R3 Demo movie for example.) Building up component models in ZB from primitives and then sculpting primitives and nurnies is discussed a bit on my blog (search for the keyword “mechanical” and there are about a dozen entries on the subject–note, I have not yet covered the fabulous new tools in ZB3.5, all the examples on my blog show how much you can do just with ZB 3.1.)

HTH,
-K

You can do hard surface in Zbrush. You can do anything in Zbrush. There are going to be other software tools that are better designed to do it, just as Zbrush is better suited for other things.

The polish, trim, and planers brushes, and group loops functions are good for adding hard surface detailing to figures that are still largely organic in nature, but the best way to do machine precise hard surface constructs is to “model” them with the retopology tools to establish deliberate geometry and logical polygroups, which can then be precision-creased with the crease function.

Thank you for the detail guide.
I will follow the work flow that you coreccted, and see how I like it.

I am not really fermiliar with retopo tool in zbrush since I am new to maya and zbrush. I guess I have to find some tutorials and try it. That way I will have more questions about it.
Thank you for the reply.

I am just posting here different question. If that would be a problem, I will create a new thread.

Ok, I created a base mesh for sculpting.
When I imported it to zbrush, and checked the frame, there is a problem.
What causes this problem?
base_mesh_maya.JPG

Attachments

base_mesh_zbrush.JPG

I think you have polygons (faces) with more than 4 sides (known as n-gons.) Try making everything with only 3 and 4 sided polygons when prepping models for ZB. Ideally have as few 3 sides as possible (4-sided polygons are the most mathematically reliable surfaces to sculpt and subdivide.)

-K

Thank you so much for the advice.
I changed topology around the area as you said, and no more problems :slight_smile:
Thank you!!

Hi there,

My skills are quite rusty as I haven’t use zbrush for sometime.

I was also wondering, if after export the new retoped mesh into modo, and lay the UVs out, then how can I get back all the details from the high res mesh I first sculpted into the new low res mesh with new UVs. Please.

I really would like to transfer all the details from the high res into my newly imported retoped/UVed mesh in Zbrush so I can generate the normal/displacement/Texture maps.

Any help or feedback is really appreciated.

Thank you.