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#901

Oh don’t get me wrong, I’m used to Zbrush and I love Zbrush’s tools… but I was curious if it were possible to not alter the base mesh when making subdivisions and adding details to those subdivisions. Like if there was a way to lock in the shape of the base mesh so that it doesn’t deform outside of that shape when you subdivide it up.

Zbrush doesn’t seem to be able to allow you to use the sculpting brushes to affect only the normal/displacement map information//i.e. being non destructive to low-poly meshes (like it sounds like 3DC can) and so that would be the next best thing.

#902

If i understood what you mean…
well you can store a morph target before sculpting, so that you save your original mesh and the shape is preserved.
after all, when your’re sculpting to detail a model to import into another 3d app and animate, you’re actually working to create maps at the end (disp, normal…) and at the end of your process they are applied to the original mesh you have.

so even if the mesh is deformed at the end of your process, this is to allow better detailing and go through subdivision levels. But since youu create maps a as a difference from original mesh and detailed one, I see no great prob. it is a different way to make the same job.

the other method you talk about, the app is actually painting onto a 2d map and transferring details in realtime onto the 3d model with map applied through UV. then details are displayed thorigh open GL or direct X system.

I think Z brush works the opposite way to provide better performances also onto not so powerful machines.
In facts, you create the maps at the end.

#903

Sorry for the confusion, let me see if I can clarify it more clearly.

Ultimately I’m looking for a way to complete and apply high poly details to specific (exactly as imported) low-res meshes without ever leaving Zbrush. As it stands now (unless I missed something), you must export the high-res model out and bake the bump/normal/etc. maps down in another program (that’s what I’ve been doing so far :smiley: ).

3DC seems to allow for all of that to be done right in 3DC. I was looking for a Zbrush alternative to this or if there were plans for such an alternative.

What would be your workflow?

#904

You’re needing to subdivide w/o smooth (SMT) highlighted in the geometry palette. That will subdivide the mesh, but it won’t smooth as you subdivide. No matter how many divisions, it will look like the base mesh. Then you paint your detail. From there you make the texture from polypaint. Of course you can also sculpt detail and make your displacement or normal, but I think you’re referring to painting.

#905

I see, that works well until you begin your sculpting (which deforms the mesh shape).

Main thing I was saying is that 3D Coat allows you to paint bump/height information directly onto the model’s bump/normal map textures (and so the high-res detail is non-destructive to the low poly mesh and effectively skips the entire high poly-to-low poly baking process) and I do hope Zbrush allows for something like that some day. It’d be an amazing thing to have Zbrush’s tools there (since you can pick your texture resolution etc. already).

Thanks for all of the answers/responses guys.

#906

Essentially the same thing, different approaches.

ZBrush - subdivision polygon sculpting, generates difference maps after the fact.

What you’re referring to - image based sculpting - the live painting of the difference map onto the base.

Either way, you end up with a model, uvs, and maps.

To me, image based, such as that in modo and 3d coat, offers less control. Generating maps in ZBrush is also fast, so you’re not saving time for that loss of control.

If you ever try voxels, you’ll also have to retopo and go through the map creation process. No sweat though.

If you’re having trouble w/ the workflow, study and possibly post in the q&t forums. I’m just getting the hang of it myself. :slight_smile:

#907

Right you can definitely make models, textures, uvs, etc. through Zbrush, it’d just be potentially less work for low-poly detailing if you were able to affect the base directly and in a non-destructive manner.

It allows the most to be made of the base’s shape as opposed to the freedom of sculpting everything in its high poly glory. One alternative could also be making the high poly first and then sculpting the low poly mesh shape from that (but that brings some cpu issues with it if the low poly is sculpted in Max or Maya). Granted you could just use images instead of importing the model itself, but I’m still looking at a way to push the process forward innovation-wise.

Combined with GoZ, “image based sculpting” would (to me) maximize the visual result of a low-poly model in less time. Every triangle could be tweaked and painted to look correct instead of leaving it to auto-baking approximations (even though there’s nothing particularly wrong with that).

That’s what I was ultimately getting at. It’d be a fantastic innovation for Zbrush and modeling for games. I hope the Pixo team makes use of that technology to allow Zbrush’s tools to work with it.

#908

Nah. The loss of control will either lead to more work or lower quality with image based.

It isn’t destructive to the base mesh. If you drastically change the shape in the higher subdivisions, the base will adapt (good thing) For the most part, non destructive.

Keep studying the workflow, you’ll quickly find that ZBrush is perfect for video game content.

http://www.pixologic.com/zbrush/industry/
http://www.pixologic.com/interview/ (bottom)

#909

Ah but things can always get better = ). Besides I’m talking about the technology itself, not specifically how 3DC does it (as I have heard rumors that the texture quality isn’t as great).

However, if the technology of making height information directly onto a low-res model through its textures (which is where that information goes anyway) is done correctly, it can be a time saver.

To be clear I’m not downing Zbrush in any way (starting to get that vibe) but depending on how well you make your low poly meshes I see an opportunity for increased efficiency here. If you intend to use the high poly model anyway then okay. But if the high poly is only for the low poly and you’ve done your work well for the low poly already, then painting height information directly as a texture with real-time preview would be a workflow worth trying.:smiley:

Again, this is not to bash Zbrush or say its current methods are worthless… because they aren’t. I love Zbrush and all of its tools… just see something that I think could improve it a little (and even then, to me). = )

#910

It could be a timesaver but youd have to be a real old school professional or
a master of painting to get intricate height shadings you get with a highpoly
and an ambient occlusion bake.

#911

With GoZ and real-time previewing, it should yield a fairly wysiwyg result. So who knows, maybe more than those with a traditional background could benefit from that.

And even with that, you can still GoZ back into Zbrush to get your additional maps however you’d like. Imagine if Zbrush also allowed you to also convert that detail painted in Zbrush into high poly information (as long as you saved it as a Zbrush file before exporting):cool: … best of both worlds :D.

Imagine this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu3g-i1TeaU With Zbrush’s tools…

#912

No I don’t think you’re downing ZBrush at all. I’ve just been down this same road, as I also own modo and 3d Coat. For super basic detail, like in the vid you posted, it works like a charm. You can even do hi res detail, but with a lot less control. It’s not a weak workflow, it’s just not the path of least resistance. :wink: So I’m just trying to save you time, that’s all :slight_smile:

The maps from ZBrush really show the hi res sculpt well. So you don’t lose work because you’re not painting the maps directly. In fact, the polys open up opportunity for more control.

#913

I see what you mean:) though personally I haven’t had the pleasure of using Modo or 3DC. I’m only looking at its technology. That tech combined with GoZ and a real-time preview wouldn’t take away control as much as it would essentially frame it more realistically. “What You See Is What You Get”

It could allow you to get the specific look you want on the low poly result more specifically. Certain details that could be lighter or would need to pop out more could be done to any specific area on the fly and in real-time to ensure every inch of the model looks the way you want it (as opposed to leaving it to the baking result or Photoshop touchups). As a digital painter, painting per-pixel could even result in cleaner, shaper lines for better close up shots or whatever the purpose may be. I just see some nice opportunities there.:smiley:

Where high poly gives you full control of how the model turns out, I see direct painting as giving you full control of how the texture turns out (which in the game world, is all people see). Could even combine both methods and use multiple approaches to your heart’s content.

I take it you don’t see that tech in Zbrush being something interesting or worthwhile?

#914

Only because the current approach is already better. Sometimes less is more.

What drew me to image based was vector displacement, which doesn’t only displace along the normal. The map isn’t grayscale, it’s full color rgb. Kinda hard to describe, but it allows for more freedom. I bought those apps for many other reasons, but I was intrigued by that feature.

What I found is that ZBrush sculpting is where it’s at. Smoother, more artistic, and more specific tools to get the job done. :slight_smile: You will get higher quality work done faster with less hold ups, simple as that.

Regarding painting, I could see something along the lines of per pixel painting getting added down the road, along with layers w/ blend modes, etc. As is, pixel resolution is dependent on subdivision. Just make sure you’ve divided enough to provide enough pixels for your uvs and it’s all good. That said, ZBrush does have a lot of great painting tools.

This, of course, is all just my opinion.

#915

It’s a good opinion and I understand where you’re coming from on that. But what I’m also suggesting is that the tech is used in Zbrush (and consequently, using Zbrush’s tools with that effect). Also, no matter how high res the high-poly model is, the low-poly model will only have the resolution it has. So being able to give that specific attention whenever needed (and in real-time no less) would be awesome.

When comparing 3DC and Zbrush though, I agree with you that Zbrush is clearly superior overall. But that technology is too tempting for me not to suggest Zbrush incorporating:D .

#916

Hey if it felt the same while sculpting, it would be a great addition :slight_smile: That’s really the only drawback to me. Something like that could actually happen down the road.

I’m only comparing ZBrush sculpting w/ the image based sculpting I’ve tried, not so much a particular app. 3d Coat has many more features.

I’ve seen some 3d Coat artists use that workflow just to add some extra detail to a retopo’d voxel sculpt.

#917

@S-07: did you see this movie? http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?t=071829

#918

Very cool jamespthornton :slight_smile:

JamesV, I did see that video and it looks really awesome… very close. Turning texture into sculpting information is a fantastic addition… very “CrazyBump-ish.” If they take that the other way and turn sculpting information into texture in real-time, that’s a feature I look forward to seeing.:smiley:

#919

Octane :+1:
Next week! Works with OBJ format 99 $ start, 199$ after

Octane Render is the worlds first GPU based, un-biased, physically based renderer. As opposed to the handfull of processor cores available in CPU’s, the GPU typically has hundreds of cores for parallel processing making it the best resource for rendering in your computer. Yet, to date no other software makes use of it in the way that Octane does. With even a single mid-range GPU you can typically expect to see a 1000%-1500% (10X to 15X) speed increase over a typical un-biased, CPU based renderer.

Not only is Octane Render the fastest un-biased renderer available, it is also fully interactive. Settings can be left at a moderate level while adjusting the parameters of the scene such as materials, lighting options, and camera parameters IN REAL TIME. This puts an end to the tedium of constantly rendering just to make minor adjustments and greatly increases a user’s productivity. When the scene is complete, simply increase the render parameters and set a final image resolution to produce an extremely high quality final image in minutes instead of hours as with traditional, cpu based render engines.

Video :bulb:

#920

The live depth picker looks cool.