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layers slider

ZBrush Usage Questions
#1

Hey everyone,
In the layers (tool menu) the sliders go from -1 to 0 to 1.
Why do layers include -1 to 0? Why not just go from 0 to 1?
I am taking a neutral face, adding a layer, making the face to angry.
Then I slide from 0 (neutral) to 1 (angry) and I see the transition.
This is fantastic.

But what can I do with -1? Nothing, and I have tried.
For instance, I tried creating a sad face, then exporting it as an .OBJ.
Then I take my slider to -1, hit record, and import the ‘sad face .OBJ’.
But when I slide to the right I get scrambled eggs, so -1 doesn’t
seem to be work in any practical sense that I can ascertain.

Thanks for any help,
Brandon

#2

-1 on the slider does the opposite. So if part of your layer is pushing in the -1 would push it out instead. It’s situational but you need to understand what it’s doing to get the effects you want.

#3

I do understand what is going on, and it is not working. What you say is true, but the layer tool is not working properly when it comes to importing, and in an in-depth analysis. I will explain the many steps I have taken to prove the incorrect behavior.

Start with a head at one subdivision level, sculpt it in a neutral expression. Save out the ztool.
Now sculpt the face into ‘squash’. This looks like a sneeze. Export this as ‘squash.obj’.
Now start over with the neutral ztool, and sculpt the face into ‘stretch’, eyebrows up, open mouth, etc.
Export this as ‘stretch.obj’.

Now, re-open zbrush, open the original neutral ztool. Create a new layer, import ‘squash’.
Now you can slide to 0 (neutral) to 1 (squash) and you will see the transition.
Take the slider to -1, hit record. Import ‘stretch’. Stretch imports, but as soon as you start the slider
the layer snaps and malfunctions. The face ‘should’ be transitioning from ‘stretch’ at -1 to ‘neutral’ at 0, and finally to squash at 1. This does not work. This is likely a bug.

Yes, you can simply import squash for 1, then slide to -1 and hit record, then attempt to sculpt that mangled mesh into ‘stretch’ but that would be silly. I have explained how it should work.

The answer may be simply to remove the -1. Have the slider go from 0 to 1, as the blendshapes work in Maya. When I have a worksession I have five people with me, and sliding back and forth is needed. I have to be very careful with the entire slider as it is. If I am not very careful I will slide into the negative section and the face will crumple.

#4

No, you’re doing it wrong. You should be doing the different poses as 2 separate layers not one pose at -1 and another at +1. The -1 will always do the opposite. Your second pose should be started on a second layer. You can then use multiple layers’ sliders to get specific complex specific poses. The -1 is fine it doesn’t need to be at 0. The sliders snap when it approaches close to 0 so it’s not a big deal. The opposite effect can be useful but you’re misunderstanding how it works.

#5

Thanks for you thoughts Mentalfrog.

Can you give me an example of how you have used -1. Post an image of the -1, the 0, and the +1.
If your -1 looks good then I’ll rethink my position.

#6

No I won’t.

You’re just saying a tool is wrong when you’re using it the wrong way and not the way it was intended.

#7

No Mentalfrog you are wrong. Having the sliders go -1 is little to no use when it comes to morph targets. When using the sliders to look at how the morph targets are working it’s painful to have to watch the slider and try to look at your model. It would be great if it was simply a check box in the layer editor to prevent the slider from going negative.

Telling someone they are using the tool incorrectly simply because you are unable or unwilling to understand their workflow is not helpful nor very nice.

#8

Thanks Mentalfrog.
I do use separate layers for each expression (or pose). I have six expressions, each on its own layer. Each layer renamed like this; squash, stretch, terror, sad, smile, angry. My example was just that, to illustrate my issue. So I believe I do understand how it works. But you say here that ‘the opposite effect can be useful’. If I am misunderstanding anything its this statement. I am not saying it can’t be useful, I am saying how useful can it be? How practical? I am reaching out to Pixologic and the community to explain (in the way of images) how -1 was intended to be useful.

#9

Oh, and another thing I have just tested.
I have a neutral face, and a slider to +1 that is a angry face.
I go to -1, and hit record, and sculpt a sad face, then use the slider and transition to +1 I have just destroyed the angry face.

So -1 is nearly completely useless.

#10

No Mentalfrog you are wrong. Having the sliders go -1 is little to no use when it comes to morph targets. When using the sliders to look at how the morph targets are working it’s painful to have to watch the slider and try to look at your model.
Telling someone they are using the tool incorrectly simply because you are unable or unwilling to understand their workflow is not helpful nor very nice.

He didn’t say it was of great use, he said it inverts the result of the layer. If you pull outwardly on a layer, and then swap to -1, the details now push in. I think is is typical layer behavior, as opposed to trying to store three completely different shapes on the same layer (sort of like how inverting the strength in NoiseMaker will invert the direction, instead of changing your bricks into chainmail).

-1 isn’t completely useless as there are times when you may want to invert a layer (I’ve done it a few times with higher frequency details). It’s only useless if you expect it to be something it isn’t. The slider represents a value; flipping it logically flips the value. The behavior you’re hoping for may be more possible with the timeline instead.

Edit: Did a quick test, and the timeline was indeed able to slide between several different layer shapes.

#11

I understand his workflow and what he’s trying to do but it’s not how layering works. It’s like watching someone use a screwdriver to pound a nail into a board. You can’t change a tool to match your workflow. You have to change your workflow to match the tools. That doesn’t mean Pixologic did it the best way or that the OP shouldn’t ask for a proper toolset for his workflow. It just means he’s trying to force a tool to do something it’s not meant to do and then claiming it’s broken.

I said it was situational and I also explained what it was doing. Explain how I’m wrong.

#12

-1 is useless when it comes to morph targets which is what the thread is in regard to. Blawless isn’t sculpting details into a mesh he’s sculpting expressions. Having the option to clamp the value at 0 would be great.

Mentalfrog - Zbrush was not initially created to be the sculpting tool it has become. It was through user feedback of the tools that it has become so powerful. People don’t change to fit the tools, the tools are changed to fit them.

#13

Ah! Thank you Cryrid.