well actually it would matter…like I have said if it didn’t matter we wouldn’t post…or speak on the forum if it didn’t matter. Another point I would like to bring up is the fact that I personally direct people to ZBC to view everyones stuff here. Alot of the people I direct know little about art and this is a good opportunity for them to get a taste of digital art. As someone aspiring to make a living at some point creating images, it would do great harm for a potential client to view some rude comments on a thread. Especially if the potential client has no interest in producing art only in purchasing art. A slanted comment could easily cost someone alot of money. So does it matter…sure it does…Like I have also said if it didn’t matter we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Thank goodness we have a moderator that is staying on top of things like that as he demonstrated yesterday by removing a troublemaker from the forum. It was a perfect example. The person comes to a thread and makes a three or four word statement. The ? mark at the end of their statement quickly showed their attempt to disrespect an image. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you…and that includes respect …We reap what we plant. And if we breed negativity with our statements then we should expect to get it back ten fold. And if someone thinks it’s a joke…well I have found there is normally a double edged sword buried in those type of jokes. If several anarchist types were allowed to post whatever on the forum without restraint…I am sure alot of people would leave the forum soon after those arrivals. There is a time and place for everything in this ole world. My opinion would be if you have something Negative that just has to been said to someone about their work, to direct that via email or in a private message. That keeps the forum clear of the bs, the negative responder gets his point to the artist being responded to and then it may become a win win situation…One bad apple can make the whole buschel look bad…Treat the disease not the symptom…Cure the disease and the symptoms disappear. Treat others with Genuine respect and get the same in return.
Point taken Ron,
I should have said “It does matter but it need not”.
Clearly as you rightly point out it does matter to many.
I feel that if those to whom other’s opinion of them matters that it wouldn’t be the case if they clearly see what they lose by putting their self worth in the hands of another.
What is lost is freedom. One gives it up, and becomes a slave to manipulating other people and the world to be how you want it. Trouble is that everyone is doing the same and we all have our own idea about how it should be.
Like it or not, no one enjoys being a slave to their emotions.
I am not a slave per say to my emotions…I am undoubtedly an emotional person that is not afraid to cry or laugh in others presence. My emotions help define who I am. I am not an uptight person that feels I have to keep it all bottled up inside. There is a time and place for everything true. That rule governs my emotional conduct. Those same emotions are what define my art, my tastes in my friends and in choosing my spouse, and also the laid back lifestyle I pretty much try to lead. My emotions allow me to always be myself and true to myself and others around me. I am not infallible for sure, but with emotions you can’t be perfect. Or at least I cannot. I temper my emotions with restraint at times because there is a time and place for outbursts. Otherwise I would be running around like a crazy person without restraint. I lead by example in my life. My shortcomings emotional or not are quite visible to the naked eye without 1 2 1. Have you ever had a friend that just couldn’t stay out of your personal business? A real drama queen type? They could always pick apart your life and everything you do rather than fix their own problems and troubles on their own homefront? They gave advice to you and never followed it themselves? And objectively they were doing a helluva lot worse off normally than you were or were constantly plagued with problems of their own? I have two of those types in my life. I get daily 1 2 1 from them…it gets old real quick and does nothing but degradate our friendship. Truly. I once was told or read somewhere that a person should never take advice from someone on a subject that they were doing better in than yourself otherwise they would take their own advice and improve their own situation. Though I listen and digest everything everyone around me says, I normally use that rule to make my final judgements and conclusions and reactions in matters. What does this have to do with emotions and stuff…hellifino, but here we are… 
Maybe I am spouting off rhetoric and showing my ignorance in life. All I know is this is the type of thinking that allows me a leisurely lifestyle with low key stress and personal happiness. 
Hi Ron,
I wish I knew what you were saying.
I’m not sure what your attitude is. I thought you were saying at one point that people should keep their comments to themselves if they are not flattering. Then it seems you are saying it’s good to let ones emotions out and say what you feel. 
btw in answer to your question about if I’ve had that type of person in my life the answer is no. They wouldn’t get the opportunity. I don’t suffer fools. My motto is: the world is wide… wide enough for them to be elsewhere. 
Edited again…my response was to 3dAffects …that response was removed so I now empty my rebuttal.
Here’s another conundrum to think about.
Say for example I publish a comment that is taken as insulting by someone, (not necessarily the thread owner) only because the person who has taken offense thinks that the comment could have been phrased better.
Here we just get into the different way people express themselves. Now what happens even if I made another comment that was basically identical to another poster and it was genuine but was seen nevertheless as sarcastic because it would be out of character? You see its a no win situation.
So what’s the answer maybe telling me not to post in certain threads? Again we have a situation of someone trying to manipulate someone else.
Really the best and in fact only sane solution to all this is to realise that you just have to let people be themselves.
Ron, earlier on you expressed you admiration for the way the moderators run the forum. Well why not just trust them to do the job.
The only posts that should be pulled are plainly personal attacks and grossly offensive posts. I don’t think the moderators need to be told this.
In other words we are back to where we started. Too bad if someones feelings are hurt because of a genuine comment. You can’t go around trying to manipulate public forums. This is the world wide web after all, not a church group. Millions of people have access.
Those who demand respect will alway get hurt. The insecure will find reason in almost anything to be upset about. One cannot expect everyone else to cater for this.
The non-corporeal vortex is converting anti chroniton into a dangerous anaphasic nitrium isotope. To survive, we must detect the flux now! If we can resonate the adaptive core, we might be able to invert the self-replicating servo-mechanism and replicate the long-range radiation!
And there you have it
Bluepage, you must be a Star Trek writer.
If you do what you have always done always expect to be treated the way you always have been. You phrase whatever however…The mods will do their jobs I am sure. The phrasing is of course what I have problems with due to the fact that is where the edge of words and the spirit of the spoken word comes from. I am no fool when it comes to identifying attacks made to myself or others. That is where my stance comes from. The whole spirit of the thread for me here is summed up by my supporting the niceness of the forum…that is what I believe and how I should act. If someone feels the need to do the opposite, then go for it…free forum…this thread is also to me about respect in an open discussion.(which we are doing here)…but unfortunately in the viewing gallery it becomes a game of “cat and mouse” and a game of chess…the phrasing is the spirit of the comments…since you Hanuman directed your statement to me, I will say directly to you, “that if you derrive pleasure from playing with words then go for it…if you like to get a rise from people you succeed…at least with me you do…but expect the same in return from others” Treat others the way you want to be treated…This is a simple rule to live by. If a person treats others like doodoo then they should expect to recieve the same in return. If that means being able to phase your words to smile at someone and then cut to the bone at the same time and you can handle getting that same spirit returned in kind, then go for it. I think you and I just have to agree to disagree on how to treat our peers on the forum. We won’t change others ideas I am sure to some degree. I recieve private communications on my support of the matter so I am confident on my stance on this subject. How can a person be condemned for being genuinely nice and caring? :eek:
EDIT…I will aslo as this thread as proof of where I stand and what others apparently think about behaviours and comments, especially those directed toward new users…(I just read this thread also)
now what did you gain by that example of your comments on that thread? what did others come away with with regards to your comments? was anything positive involved in response to the persons thread or the feedback the comments you made generated? Yes I am responding to another’s thread with the idea of demonstration of intent and how “phrasing” is taken. Does it matter? Of course it does, otherwise comments wouldnt be made. (good or bad ones)
hmmm. great thread here… my take?
I think the 121 method is a pretty nifty way to go, and… the 123 idea is a fantastic idea… in fact, when I post my next feeble attemp I will be looking for the 123 because I want the “truth” as the many experienced would see it…
That said, I also feel that encouragement is a very cool thing for those who have not asked for critique… nice to be nice… 
oh, and the worst possible alternative is not getting a responce at all… that truly sucks… I have been to several BB’s in my day and have seen many posts by many budding artists, self included, who recieved hundreds of views for thier worx and no replies… this is more discouraging than all the criticism one could recieve…
nope, I think this BB is cruising just fine… a ton of terrific and helpful folks, and wowsers on all the terrific worx, from the first attempts right on through to the creme de la creme… and to further my opinion of this board, I just want to add… fantastic job to the folks responcible… tons of great info, tuts etc… very well set up indeed…
three cheers to each and every one of you…
Gidgit, good point.
Ron,
you said: “The phrasing is of course what I have problems with…”
This was my point, maybe what you see is not there at all. For example in a recent thread by Dfaris my answer was percieved by some as hurtful or “deconstructive” because it wasn’t “nice”. But this wasn’t the case. Dfaris wasn’t offended because there was nothing to be offended by. Howver others saw it differently. This is precisely what I mean. You could go on all day talking about the deeper spirit behind the phrasing, but in the end it is just a personal opinion, not a fact.
Ron, put as much niceness into your posts as you wish but understand that if others don’t do this that it does not automatically mean that the stand they take is the opposite to you. It is not a matter of “my way or the highway”.
Regarding this debate being public, that is the point of the forum.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> now what did you gain by that example of your comments on that thread? what did others come away with with regards to your comments? was anything positive involved in response to the persons thread or the feedback the comments you made generated? Yes I am responding to another’s thread with the idea of demonstration of intent and how “phrasing” is taken. Does it matter? Of course it does, otherwise comments wouldnt be made. (good or bad ones) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I’ve just seen this bit on the end which refers to the Dfaris thread. So let me answer your questions.
First question, “what did I gain”. Well I gained the satisfaction of knowing that I have offered some advice and suggestions to newbies that was not offered by anyone else and it is advice that I would wish to have if I was a newbie reading the thread.
“what did others come away with”
Well I can’t really answer that can I?
Your next sentence is difficult to understand but I guess you are asking if anything positive was contributed. Well I think this has been answered in my last post in the thread.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Yes I am responding to another’s thread with the idea of demonstration of intent and how “phrasing” is taken. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now this, Ron, is the crux of the matter isn’t it. You intend to demonstrate how my “phrasing” is taken. However it is not taken in the way you suggest by the very person who started the thread. I quote from Dfaris: “I understand your comment.I dont care if somebody want to use a script or not so no offence taken here.”
So you have just demonstrated my point that what you are getting upset about is just your own take on matters and not an objective fact.
yeah it’s a large part of the crux…dfaris was ok with it…then kewl…you lucked out for once…my way or the highway? I have never said of implied that…You say whatever you want. The crux behind phrasing is intent. You try to make me realize that its ok to say things without consequence for the reason of we are all different, live in different places and we don’t have to be nice just because we dont have to in life. My point is go ahead and do it. Truly… Do what you have to do and say what you have to say. If you can live with it, so can the viewers of your comments I guess… I guess I am just a paranoid person that sees things that just aren’t there. I just hope other new users are as understanding as dfaris seems to be at the moment. When enough complaints are lodged against another user, and eyesights are completely unfurled, about living by the sword, then maybe they too will die by the sword and become artist of the month. (that was my version of satire by the way) Did I say something not pleasant? Yes. Does it matter? No.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I guess I am just a paranoid person that sees things that just aren’t there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Perhaps, you wouldn’t be the first. So are you suggesting that defaris is incorrect in his view? after all you posted the link to the thread not me. Maybe the response of defaris was reasonable. To call me “lucky” is a bit of an insult to the viewpoint of defaris wouldn’t you say.
This is why I say you give the impression of “my way or the highway”
I gave the link as proof to demonstrate how you percieve 1 2 1…“the word useless was used in your appraisal of dfaris’ work”
My way or the highway…LOL… I give no absolutes as there aren’t too many of those in real life.
I imply you infer…ergo intent…via phrasing…
I debate for personal awareness for one. I also do it for public awareness. We both have shed light on our personal views and of our conducts and beliefs. I simply feel the personal need to take up for others that won’t take up for themselves or can’t stand the heat of the kitchen to take up for themselves. Why do I have this need? Goes back to the do unto others as you would have them do unto you rule of thumb and living by example to try to enhance the world I live in positively. So what have/ are we accomplishing here? I don’t know what you have accomplished from your perspective? I have held strong in my convictions (personal and public) and by my ethics and lived my motto thru my words. You have served to strengthen my belief system in this matter also. So I come away from this debate even morely firmly planted in my views, so that is positive. What’s that ole saying about if you give someone enough rope they will eventually hang themselves…well the perverbial rope grew via this debate by about a mile in my estimation. Now who will mess up and hang themself?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I gave the link as proof to demonstrate how you percieve 1 2 1…“the word useless was used in your appraisal of dfaris’ work”<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But all you have demonstrated is what I have been saying all along, that is that what you see is necessarily from your personal viewpoint and that others (in this case defaris himself) may not see things your way. You wish to give the impression that I called defaris’s work useless. In fact this is a total misreading of my post in spite of the lengthy explanations which followed. Go figure.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Now who will mess up and hang themself? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well I know what you’d like to think. Whether it’s true or not is for others to judge.
PS I’ve sent you a personal email to continue in private if you wish.
yer right…dfaris didnt see it…and all I can give is what I personally percieve of what I read. That is where Intent comes back into play. And yes I answered your mail. Public or private I stand by my personal beliefs. I would like to say for the purpose of this debate to anyone watching this thread, that hey…ZBC is a great place to hang out and learn and make new friends etc…and that you post how you want to post IMHO. I simply say I will not normally give 121 or the proposed 123 unless you ask for it. If you don’t ask for it I personally will find the good in you work only when I comment. There is no reason for me to take the chance on hurting someone elses feelings and running them away from the forum. Now if you want 121 I will gladly give it…Lord knows I have something to say about everything it seems…good or bad that is how this fatman is…I simply say there is nothing wrong with tempering a 1 2 1 comment as to not offend the creator of the image or document…I only express my feelings…If you want to jump on the band wagon then go for it…nothing wrong with standing up for what you believe. And there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone or their point(s) of view.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> yer right…dfaris didnt see it…and all I can give is what I personally percieve of what I read. That is where Intent comes back into play. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
dfaris didn’t see what you see, correct. Have you considered that is because what you saw wasn’t there?
Intent? Are you implying that you are able to see my intent? Again it is just your interpretation. All your responses are to how things seem to you. If you wish to know my intent then you need to ask me.
Just to butt in the debate. I wear the same glasses as Ron I guess. I was surprised at your post… Personally I think if you had an opinion on scripts perhaps it should have been a new message. Your very own post where you could say what you want about scripts. You could have your own debate about them pro’s and cons, without running rough shod over someone else’s hard work.
My opinion. Unasked for. Worth nothing, but wanted to let you know Ron isn’t alone.
This thread is now closed. If you wish to continue a debate you may do so, but please do it via email or private message. As has already been stated by others, it has reached the point of beating a dead horse.
I would like to remind everyone that no personal attacks are permitted toward other members. Keep a thread on topic, debate all you want, but don’t let it get personal.