Contructive criticism?

[system]

Sorry, I had to do it…I couldn’t help myself, right side of brain shutdown, left side brain shutdown, ack no brain working, it’s late…and any other excuse, but I just had to do it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> (OK, bad example, a cube with a hole in it is a feat with Zbrush considering it has not boolean features...) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to differ with you there…takes about 30 seconds to create a cube with a hole in it(probably less if you’re not old and decrepit like me).

[img]http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1028704550kmj.jpg[/img]

And not only circles either…

Only constructive thing I can add is that we are all human, we all like and dislike many different things, including criticism constructive or otherwise. I hate criticism…but I need it to learn. I ask for it. Man, am I a sado or what? Anyhow, if you really want to know what someone thinks about your work, and/or you need help with something…there are tons of people here who love helping, criticising, praising etc. Name your pleasure. It’s really very simple. It’s your choice, ask and ye shall receive, ask not and well…

I do believe that is what is behind asking for 121. You ask for it you get it. Sometimes you don’t ask for it and you get it. But if you want it. Ask for it. It doesn’t matter what other people say about other peoples images. If you put you image up for input and want the cold hard facts, ask for 121.

Sometimes a problem arises when a 121 is not asked for. If you don’t know if they want 121, they didn’t ask, don’t offer it. Pretty simple and the beauty of the 121 rule.

For me, the sado, I take advantage of all comments whether I ask for them or not. They all make me grow, but not everyone is like me, so follow the 121 rule and less feathers will be ruffled.

Art is subjective, not everyone likes the same things. shrugs Diversity, it’s what makes the world go 'round most days.

Ok, bed time now…I’ve had me fun

[system]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Some like Picasso… personally I think he should have chopped off his fingers… not his ear. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah-hmm. Sorry to point this out, but Picasso did neither. That was Vinny Van Gough who did the ear thing. I believe Picasso went to his grave pretty much whole.

But none too soon, I can tell you that.

The bastard.

[system]

i think the 121 rule is nice ONLY when the person ask for a 121 which basicly means tell me what you think but be nice about it.
it seams a member or so here just goes around giving his option with out the 121 and that can be desturbing to others and to who ever posted it and can be clasifield as provoking.
i seen this style before its called re wording.
enough to keep him/her out of trouble but enough to pis you off because he said your pic basicly looked like sht.

a sample would be EZ with all do respect your stuff just isn’t that good and the background is messed up.

when the person could of said EZ it could use a tad of improving with a little more practise.

the re wording was (with all do respect ) in the above sentance enough to try and cover him/her self but if it was realy with all do respect the person could of been a little more leanant with his words instead of trying to upset me.

[DLee]

You’re right STiM. ~smacks self~ I don’t like either of them and if they were to post here… I wouldn’t comment at all since I just don’t get that kind of art.

Ez, yes sugar coated insults are still insults. There is nothing constructive about comments that insult the artist. It has nothing to do with worring about sending some small kid to bed upset. It’s common courtesy If you hate it… move on.

[system]

EZ,

I agree with you. There are some who study the art of provocation it seems, however, only each of us as individuals can decide how we process the comments.

There is no way that any of us can control those who would speak but have not been spoken to. The only way to deal with it is to ignore it. Don’t take it personal.

Believe me there are times that I go away crushed. Why? Because I let a few caustic comments get to me. And it’s not just my images, which everyone has been quite kind about so far, but I’ve seen some comments on other peoples images and it makes me not want to come back sometimes. I poise my fingers over the keyboard ready to fire off an extremely nasty retort only to think about it and realize the best thing is just to ignore it. Does this always work? Nope, just most times.

I think that not everyone knows and understands the 121 rule. The particular image that got this whole thread started did not ask for 121. It should not have been given and IMHO the image was perfect.

It’s not up to the viewer to decide if the artist needs constructive criticism (or any criticism for that matter) in this particular place. It’s up to the artist to ask for it. But, you also have to remember that art/pictures invoke emotions in people for different reasons and from different views. Art is a highly emotional subject and artists are highly emotional about their art and rightly so. Fact of life. It’s this way because they give so much of themselves in their images. Sometimes some viewers feel let down. Other times some people just need to be nasty. Some people just have to speak whether asked or not.

We have the power to ignore or disregard anything we see or read. Does that mean we’ll not get upset? Nope, but if you can keep it in perspective then I think you’ll feel better about things.

We don’t have the power to control others, so no matter what rules you create, someone will come along and break them. We need to learn to control ourselves and our response to those who can’t follow the rules because ultimately, we only have control over ourselves and how we relate to others.

Anywho, IMHO, the best way to deal with non-constructive, non asked for criticism or outright bashing is to ignore it to the best of our ability.

I don’t let the power of those who are caustic stop me from posting because in the end, I’ll be the one to lose and they to win.

Take all my comments above as a “She’s lived in the mountains too long without the benefit of much human interaction.”

[system]

All I have to say on this whole topic is that from what I see a lot of the hurt that some feel or offence that some feel is more often than not just their own fears and projections.

One of picasso’s greatest paintings, demoiselles d’avignon outraged even his contemporaries. It shocked many and was said to be absolute rubbish my many. But who had the last laugh. Van gogh didn’t sell too well in his day either.

I don’t really see that there is any cause for anyone to get upset about anything that is said ever. Period.

Who cares what other people think or say? what does it matter if someone is really trying to make an unkind remark or if it is just seen that way by someone. It doesn’t really matter.

I think people should learn to rise above this sort of stuff.

[system]

Hanuman,

Way out of my league here but:

This begs the question since we’re talking about the artists feelings, how did Picasso feel about that during the criticism and before the last laugh?

We all suffer the human condition and we can never be immune from negativity. I doubt, though I can’t find a reference right now, that Picasso was not moved emotionally one way or another by the reception of his work and mayhaps the negativity increased his zeal to shock and outrage and become even more anti-social. And I find the following interesting:

"…

Huffington’s profile reveals an endlessly talented and intensely passionate manipulator who viewed his works not as art but rather, as Huffington put it, as weapons “against every emotion of belonging in creation, against nature, human nature and the God who created it all.” Picasso’s prolific creativity, Huffington argues, was fueled by his brutal candor and studied indifference to people and to social convention, traits that induced seething frustration in those who worked and lived with him.

…"

Thanks for inspiring me to look it up and I doubt I want to read more about him. He seems a bit twisted to me, anti-social perhaps? It seems everything I ran across looking at Picasso holds close to the same idea of his attitude towards people and life. Matter of fact one of the things I read mentioned that one of his friends fully expected to find one day that he had hung himself behind one of his canvases.

[system]

Hi vikki,

&lt;BLOCKQUOTE&gt;quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;HR&gt; This begs the question since we're talking about the artists feelings, how did Picasso feel about that during the criticism and before the last laugh? &lt;HR&gt;&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt;

Well this is my point. You’d really have to consult picasso himself to know the answer otherwise it’s just other people’s ideas. From what I can make out Picasso was sure about himself. I doubt he would be shaken by anyones opinion. Certainly not mattisse. Picasso just painted what he saw. As they say day is night and night is day for the wise.

&lt;BLOCKQUOTE&gt;quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;HR&gt;We all suffer the human condition

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

true enough.

&lt;BLOCKQUOTE&gt;quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;HR&gt; ...and we can never be immune from negativity.&lt;HR&gt;&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt;

I’m not exactly sure what you mean by this but while we have no control over our feelings we certainly have a choice over our actions. We can decide to act after having an objective look at a situation.

&lt;BLOCKQUOTE&gt;quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;HR&gt; I doubt, though I can't find a reference right now, that Picasso was not

"…

…Huffington’s profile … created it all." … Huffington argues, … frustration in those who worked and lived with him.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

These are just other peoples ideas again, to be taken with a pinch of NaCl

Well he didn’t hang himself did he. I think he was very upset by the suicide of his friend Casagemas. But he seemed pragmatic enough to not be bothered by what others thought of him.

This is just the simple point I’m making.

Who care’s what others think of you. Why does it matter. Why be a hostage to others opinions of you. It just doesn’t make sense to me.

It just seems so trivial to me. why give it any importance. It seems to me that if everyone just let all this notion of “nasty posts” go then there wouldn’t be any problems at all. If someone want to say something by me is total crap then let them, what does it matter. I wouldn’t mind. As long as the comments don’t get personal I don’t think it affects the forum at all.

People have made their sentiments towards me clear. So what. I don’t want to manipulate their opinion of me, it just doesn’t matter.

[system]

PS,

don’t forget pasteur he failed his doctorate or was it his entrance exam. the very same paper won him the nobel prize after everyone caught up with him.

What about the great indian astronomer Chandrasekar. When he realised that if a star was big enough it would…well it would contract to nothing. Eddington publicly humiliated and ridiculed him.

They laughed at Bob Hope.

It goes on. If history teaches us anything it’s that the only opinion that matters is ones opinion of oneself.

[system]

im Glad you all agree with Me.
thank You

[juandel]

heyheyheyHEY, both picasso and vvg are among my personal alltime favs, anti-social or not! (as far as PP is concerned i needed to see this flic first - my advice: dont miss it: i too think it to be one of the funniest movies ever done and the one and only esperantolike i have ever seen and therefore having no need to be translated (since the days of chaplin, of course).

what seems to have been gotten out of focus in the evolution of this thread is the term “constructive” which is written loud and clear in its topic. and this word, as far as i get it as a foreigner, is the contradiction of “destructive”, which seems to have been the main reason of quarrel in here by now. of course, all of us have our own private connotations relating to the term criticism, and they usually are not on the positive side. as far as my etymological dictionnary is telling me, the original phonema have to do with the decisive physical actions of a body which is sick. maybe this dictionnary is wrong, but as it seems, it obviously still induces reactions in most who responded into this thread until now on a very emotional kindof “dead or alive” level of consciousness. IMHO, this should be no reason to forget about the “constructive” part of the original post, anyway.

121, IMHO, is a great rule, but being a rule, it needs a little courage and confidence to ask for it (i admit, i never did so). like hanuman, i am not thinking anyone has to be afraid of anything “just” spoken out (neverteheless without neglecting the power simple words might have on the “average” human mind) or to care too mucho about it. of course, as EZ has put out wisely, the slightest unasked-for hint that there might be something to improve in one’s art might spoil one’s own satisfaction with having done a piece of art (which doubtlessly always needs some courage to post), especially so in a young or newbie or otherwise insecure member of this forum. but not giving the 121 option, imho, shouldnt add up to cut out any CONSTRUCTIVE advice (which, of course, by the meaning of it, does not include personal attacks of any kind (as that would have to be considered DE-structive)) by itself like some kind of vaccine (which will either end up in no feedback at all or lukewarm appraisals). the fact that one is receiving advice should not be taken as a personal affront in any way as well - which seems to be the problem most of the times, but constructive “criticism” in the best sense of the word really wont hurt anybody. i, being of human nature, have to admit that i myself would feel a lil bit uneasy now and then about getting too mucho advices, though but basically being not the kind of personality feeling like going back to old projects too often or caring too much about the opinions of others but preferring to make use of my own brain, i probably wouldnt give a damn about redoing anything, advice or not anyway, i am realizing more and more that this ignorante part of my nature might happen to be to my own disadvantage and a weight on the way to developing skills sometimes.

just my 2 cents, though i still dont know whats the meaning of the phrase

• juandel

[Ron_Harris]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Who care’s what others think of you. Why does it matter. Why be a hostage to others opinions of you <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To post is to share…share because it makes you feel good…and if it makes you feel good then it should be able to make you feel badly just the same if you share and it’s taken negatively. You are right…We can’t control our emotions, but only our actions in response to our emotions. Would a person post to receive negative reviews? If yes, then why? What is to be gained? Why would a person succumb to anothers opinion, the same reason they post, because it matters, otherwise why post. The world is full of negative nancies, why do they exhude their ill feelings on others? Perverse pleasure? Inadequacies? Low self esteem of their work and themselves? God complex? Little man syndrome? Who knows? If it didn’t matter then why have this discussion? Because it does matter on some level, whether it is an opinion or a piece of work produced. It’s not an evil thing to have an ego. A fragile ego is something you deal with. An egomaniac is something you avoid like the plague. :eek:

[system]

What the world needs now

[DM1]

I have great difficulties with this idea of criticising other peoples work, for one thing how can I judge what aim was in the mind of the person creating it. I have had criticism of work I have put on the forum and have not asked for 121; those same people that criticised mine I feel would have been quite put out had I criticised theirs. I wish I had the time to look at everything that comes on the forum but I don’t, if I did then those images that I found difficult for me personally to find something I liked in them then I don’t have to comment at all. I feel if people want advice they will ask for it, when I feel unhappy about points in one of my image’s I mention it when I put it on that then leaves it open for people that can assist on those points to do so.
I know images have different merit, at present I am experimenting with textures and Poser because I use Poser for quicker images outside of the forum. What I produce from these experiments I may well put on the forum, I would obviously not expect people to respond with,”wow what an awesome figure”, because I have not created it, they should temper their comments with consideration of whether I have improved the P4 figure, what Z features I have added and so forth. It would be unfair for a landscape created with Vue d’Esprit with some ZBrush content to get the same rapturous applause as a landscape all self created in ZBrush. In Vue I would have program-generated trees and plants plus some ready made model’s to use.
Uncontrolled praise is senseless I would agree, but unless I was employed by somebody like Dreamworks or Disney as a top digital artist then I feel I am not qualified to make what could be damaging comments on others work. Those that feel this need so strongly must ask themselves if it is not their own egos they wish to inflate by giving out unasked for advice. If they had let me loose with 121 on Picasso’s work I would have had a field day pulling it apart, I feel he must had some physical problem, his sight I think.
Dave

[system]

Hanuman

What I meant by “we can never be immune from negativity” is that no matter how much we try, at some level in our being, when someone points their barb at us, we will feel it, then analyze it, then act or not act on it, if we are normal human beings. The same is true of constructive criticism asked for or not.

What other people see me as is an important part of who I am…it doesn’t make me; it doesn’t break me; but it all adds to me. It makes me look at myself. What other people see in my work is very important to me. We all see ourselves and our work with colored glasses and it’s important and very stimulating to me to see what you and others see. A different unattached perspective so to speak. To me, art (using the word loosely in my case) is a highly emotional topic. I may see beauty in something, you may see the beast. It’s interesting, it’s enlightening. From a very early age we care about what people think about us and what they think about what we do. Two distinctly different things.

I have to agree with Ron, if it didn’t matter, we wouldn’t post. It does matter. It makes me strive to learn more, to try harder, to improve and excell.

I think you miss the point on what is personal. Art, by it’s very nature is very personal to an artist or creator. So, to criticize could be construed by some as a personal attack.

I feel like Juandel. It’s very hard for me to post, knowing full well, I’m gonna learn all my weaknesses and failings. But you know what, it’s good information. I learn from it. You only have to look at my first images and compare them with the more current to see that this forum works, at least for me. The difference is that I ask for it. There are many people who do not ask, do not want and do not enjoy that kind of feedback. It only seems fair to those people that we either comment on what pleases us or don’t comment. Pretty simple idea.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> People have made their sentiments towards me clear. So what. I don’t want to manipulate their opinion of me, it just doesn’t matter. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Somewhere, somewhere, I think it does matter whether you choose to admit it or not. Since you opened the door…for me, I haven’t formulated more of an opinion of you other than that you can be pleasant when you want, contrary when you want, even funny, and I respect your opinions as I respect others opinions. You can sometimes make me feel outraged and sometimes make me giggle. To deeply disagree with someone is not to dislike them, only simply to disagree.

We’re getting all caught up in the complexity of art and artists here. It’s not apples and oranges, it’s a blending of the two. One is part of the other and I don’t have an elegant enough command of the English language, any language for that matter, to express totally my thoughts in a clear way.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Why be a hostage to others opinions of you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Make no mistake, I’m no ones hostage and I don’t believe anyone else here is either. I personally am a beginner, a leach, trying to leach all the learning I can here and everyones opinion counts. If anything, this forum is my hostage. We can make or break ourselves by how we deal with it.

As for Picasso, from what I read, yes other’s opinions because I haven’t found an article yet with his own, I don’t think he was secure at all and I think his art was a lashing out of his insecurities, not confidence and an attitude that he didn’t care what people thought. I think he did. Take this from where it comes. It’s only today that I looked at his art from the name of the piece you gave above. I have no conception of true art. I know what pleases my eye and what does not and that’s what I go by when I look at others work. I don’t analyze balance, color, composition etc…I have no conception of it. I wasn’t trained that way. I use the language, I strive for it but…

We all have different opinions, views, insights, knowledge on a plethora of topics and thank goodness for that! What a boring world it would be if we all agreed on everything!

To my mind, everyones opinion counts on some level no matter the topic or as Ron says (not a direct quote)…there wouldn’t be a topic.

I go back to my original thought on this thread:

When someone does not ask for a 121, we shouldn’t take it upon ourselves to save them or their art. We should show them the respect they deserve by either commenting on the good we see or just flat don’t comment. It all boils down to mutual respect.

It’s astounding all the bashing of the good comments that’s going on here in this thread by some. They are as important as the constructive criticism. We all see things differently and if someone sees a cube with a hole in it and likes it, more power to em! They should say so, novice or expert alike.

Now, my brain hurts, you’ve made me think way to hard today. I think I’ll go do some artwork.

[system]

Wow Vikki,

Yes I understand what you say. But that is not how I understand reality to be.

really this thread is not about 121’s or criticism at all. It is about, as you correctly pointed out earlier. The fundamental human problem.

Of insecurity. Which comes from being fully self conscious. Therefore self judgemental. Therefore the need to be reassured all the time.

I don’t think picasso saw the world as most people see the world. Nothing is really as it seems is it?

To who are you referring when you use the word “I”? What is this “I”. It is just notional. The problems in this thread are a microcosm of the problems in the forum which is a microcom of the whole world.

Let’s just say things are not as they seem.

[system]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But that is not how I understand reality to be. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To me, reality is subjective. One man’s reality is another man’s fairy tale is another man’s nightmare.

Reality is too deep a subject to get into. Perhaps one reason why I have found my niche is Nursery Rhymes.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The fundamental human problem <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we disagree on terminology. I don’t find this a “problem”. It is a normal human condition.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Of insecurity. Which comes from being fully self conscious. Therefore self judgemental. Therefore the need to be reassured all the time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Human beings need constant contact, feedback, caring and genuine guidance to learn, to grow, to give back, to be. Insecurity and Reassurance are valuable tools to that end. It’s a way of communicating whatever you want to call it and it is a part of normal human beings. Some need more than others, I’m one that needs more and I recognize that.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Nothing is really as it seems is it?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hate using definites like “nothing”, but I’ll agree on some things are not as they seem.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> To who are you referring when you use the word “I”? What is this “I” <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just the three of us…me, myself and I. I don’t understand what you mean by notional and I think it’s too deep and too serious a subject for me.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Let’s just say things are not as they seem <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okie dokie.

[system]

I think we all need encourgement . Good bad or indefferent. who is anyone to put down the artists work, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder!!!

[Slosh]

Hello, friends. I’ve been gone awhile, and I see that this thread is still going strong (and even has a part II)!

As for my original input into this discussion, I deleted my comments before many of you had a chance to read them. I was not so offended for my own piece, which is what probably spawned Hook’s thread in the first place. So, one guy did not think my picture was so great. He never said it sucked, either, but just made some constructive comments, albeit unsolicited. Not asking for the critique does not make it any less valuable. I, for one, appreciate any comments that could improve my work. I only wanted, originally, to let Hook know that some of the things he pointed out were intentional. It was not until he began to refer to others on the forum as “untalented” and not worthy of the praise that some of us have chosen to give the work. That, to me, was uncalled for, and from there sparked the debate. Hanuman was quick to agree with Hook’s assessment of the commentary that is given in the forum. I did not feel up to a huge debate and withdrew.

In the end, I must stand by my original thought that it is rude to globally say that a lot of work receiving praise is not good, and that the artists do not deserve to have the work complimented. To me, constructive criticism coming from someone that I know well, and who’s work I can compare and relate to, is very happily taken. From someone who is a complete stranger, and has offered nothing to validate his/her own level of artistic abilities, is not an opinion that I can take without some resentment. Sorry, it’s the human side of me. Stranger says “it sucks”, I get defensive. Friend says, “it needs work”, I get to working on the improvements.

As for Picasso, Van Gogh, Rembrandt, whoever else…I am nowhere near the league they played in, therefore whatever they experienced in life has nothing to do with me. Plus, they’re all dead. My heros are still in the living and many of them are right here on ZBC. So I will continue to defend them when the situation arises.

[system]

Hi slosh, since you mention my name in your thread I’d rather put my own words into my mouth, and say simply that…

who cares who says what about whom? So someone says your work sucks? what does that say about your work. Nothing. It only tells you something about the commentator.

So whether anyone is offended because someone insulted their work or whether it was only imagined, it doesn’t matter a fig.

My advice would be for those who are disturbed by comments made about their work to not worry about it. It really doesn’t matter.

Or best of all get the feelings out in an artwork.

for example, when someone on another forum attacked me out of the blue as being a “sour spirit” (what ever that means), I had a good laugh and posted this with the title “sour spirit”.

[img]http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1029002874fua.jpg[/img]

Another time on this forum when a big nasty melee was in full swing I got my feelings out in a post. Just preparing the artwork was enough to dispel any annoyance I felt. This was it: