ZBrushCentral

CONTENT vs. FORM

Community
#1

dear members, CG artists, creative people or what ever you prefer to call yourself,

I’m writing for the first time here… I’m not really in to forums, but impressed with the work and talent that I see here I got a wish to say (ask) and discus one thing…

… it’s about CONTENT and FORM… or if you wish CONTENT vs. FORM… well I’m not trying here to separate those two things because that would be not possible, the content IS build of form…

… but today’s artists, occupied either by technology and technic or either totally opposite things like style, philosophical meaning or individual defining, are forgetting that two of those are needed to accomplish one artwork…

… result, art for art’s sake or completely empty form that looks cool…

… as I was doing some workshops of video art for students of art it was very hard to find ones who at least have wish to put the effort at both thing, CONTENT and FORM…
… well, sadly, I have to say that on this great forum I see the same problem… great shapes, great technic, coll looking pictures, worlds, but EMPTY, COLD, not individualized ideas… I’m so sorry when I see those work and so much effort and time spend inside, but work that do not communicate at least one proper word…

… and a lot of those people are called artists…

… maybe I sound like the old professor at your school, but actually I’m (28) not so old, and with already ten years of working in a advertising and film industry, I have writen my scripts, made music videos, commercials, short and documentary films and cartoons… I’m also big fun of 3D animation, and i’m making my first 3D cartoon right now all by myself and I’m so sorry when I see all those people at this forum doing much better in technical sense and with so much talent, but spending all that time to communicate nothing really…

… hope you don’t take this too bad… I would just like to know what do you think about all this…

… best regards,

dzenid

#2

Well Dzenid, first of all you should have posted this on the “community forum” !
Remember this is an “user-forum” that means people from all over the world talk abouth modeling & rendering in Zbrush , and the problems and solutions they encounter using this software…its not an “Artist-forum” and sometimes the images posted express just a technique or an insight how to use lights & materials ! I think most people here do this as a hobby or with a background in illustration, so they are commercial thinking people .
And even in Art you have" L’art pour L’art" …so why expect a user forum to be full of "content " ?

jantim

#3

Well ,you can ilustrate how you imagine content and form, i hope i dont have to wait for the dvd to see it from you…beside that art is a free content and form from each one so is very dificult to stay what is or not…of course some there assume they are artist or art judge that is they problem but for the mayority here is a lot of inspiration and feeling. Look this post i made recently i put the name of genuflexion, not only is an anatomical posture but also the main important a very frequent and indeaseable attitude in the life, it make sense to you content and form?..of course that post was made before your statement of content and form…let me know
Andreseloy
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?p=197583&posted=1#post197583

#4

Jantim :+1: :+1: :+1:

#5

Else something was missed :rolleyes:
Pilou

#6

hmmmm…

First off, good topic.

Secondly, will you teach us form and content? One of the great things about ZBC is that there is normally alot of sharing and teaching going on here. I have been here for a little bit and have learned a few things on this magical journey with so much more to learn. I complain to myself and others all the time about my own works lacking life or the spark of life. What makes the scene and what brings it to life? Who knows? I don’t otherwise I would incorporate it into my own works.

There are a gazzilion artists around, all on different levels of this learning process. Some draw, some model and some animate and do it all. Some of the people are professionals, and some are like me in hopes of some day being worth their salt. I think generally there are alot of people with alot of aspirations in hopes of being paid for their digital visions and leaving the doldrums of whatever occupation they currently have.

I know there is what I have personally come to know of as fanboy fanfare with some artists…ie a favorites game just because an artist is popular. I know that art is also a matter of personal taste…because there have been and continue to be pieces that I would consider fecal that have been raved about by the masses, here and on other forums. When producing for the general masses to visually consume, I have always found it funny that sex (no matter how badly done sells and also some of my worst works ). So much is left to the viewer to decide.

Most of the people around on these forums I think are just hobbyists with a dream. A few of them may have formal training. All are critics on some level, self inclusive. Most are, as stated above, chasing a dream and alot of us don’t even have a clue. We are in the kool aid and dont even know what the flavor is. :wink:

There is also the technical vs creative aspects too of art. Alot of people here lurk about in search of the holy grail or some button in Zbrush world to make everything look realistic and polished in their own digital outbursts.

So again, content and form? You are a professional according to your posting, so do something about it. Please. Teach us. Enlighten us to correct our problems. We have a few cliche old saying around my area.

  1. If you aren’t part of the solution then you are part of the problem.
  2. (g rated versions) Either poop or get off the pot.

Well I thought I would add my 2 cents worth to this. My comments and a $1 together will buy you a cheap cup of coffee.

Now back to our regular scheduled program already in progress, where Martha Stewart shows us how to crochette (sp?) toilet paper caddies for long days in the big house.

Ron

ps. This could be an interesting thread if no one loses their cool and gets the thread waxed by the Powers that Be. Laterz:+1:

#7

Jantim

I agree with you about wrong forum… sorry… but anyway, to answer your question…
people here are doing some “work”, no?.. with Zbrush… ok… they are posting their WORK and the problems that they encounter…

i insist on the word WORK… because the work is not an exercise, the WORK is not just simply using the software… they say “this is my character for the game, for the cover or whatsoever” or simply “this is what I did”…
so they will post their WORK in progress and maybe a technical problem that they have, kind of lighting or texture… … but before they decided to use zbrush, they had to have a reason why they want to use this program… probably they have something to accomplish, they have a reason or idea… if we take your example of illustration, maybe they need to do a cover for the one SF book but even than before they enter in realization they need to think about basic artistic elements a idea, a style, or approach…

… it’s a pity to define zBrush output like a mathematical result of finely organized and used tools… what the people are posting here is not just a software related technical problem… it is gallery for their work… and i don’t want nothing more than help them and myself to do better work…

… so i do not agree with you that this is just user related forum where people post just because they have problem or the solution… it is the forum where users share their work… as a work (and even simple exercise) is a process which most of the time start with the idea or reason and it continues to realization… i speak about initial idea, the reason for doing something, about reasons which are essential for any creation… even the reasons like: why this character is fat, why he has such a nose or a big head what is unique at your character, do you have a style, why he has two legs and to arms? and so on…
… i’m putting the problem which is not related with the software, that is true, but it is completely related with the content of work showed in this forum… and in the same time so much ignored…

… i hope you see what i’m speaking about… i could also put you the examples of what i’m speaking but i don’t want to be specific to any of those great people…

DZENID

#8

Dzenid, I agree with Jantim about the function of this forum.
Can you tell me about the content of a sculpture made by Michelangelo or a painting made by Mondriaan? What Christo wants to tell me with his always repeting trick? After studying at the academy of arts and working for 22 years freelance I’ve seen a lot. An illustration made in 3d cannot be compared with an oilpainting. The traditional art shows the speed of the brush, the movement of the hand or the arm. In 3d we have to find the expression in the form.
OK, at one point I agree with you. Sometimes the illustrations here could be better with some more effort. But working with ZBrush is exploring. We are not prisoners of our borders. This forum is free and nobody needs a qualification.
I should like to see some posts from you to understand what you mean and learn from it. Learning, that’s why we are here.

#9

as you can see in the replies so far most of us are learning and we are asking for you to impart knowledge also i feel anyone who can get all of the feeling of great art or a living sculpture in zbrush or or any other prog for that matter would be a genius they are 2 mediums that are worlds apart .

#10

I think that form is "just " the outward expression of an idea !
And that can be ambiguous…a log of wood with a broken piece of a buzzsaw in a lumberyard is an “accident” …that same log , in a gallery or museum, can be the expression of the conflict between man and his natural habitat : nature itself !
I agree that sometimes people should think more before they create…and that goes not only for Art !

jantim

#11

You are all very kind to replay and discus with me… i’m really happy… THANX!

well i would like to answer each of you but it’s a time in between work so no hard feelings…

Bas Mazur:
like i have sad above i agree with a wrong forum… sorry once more… but still I do not agree that this question is not on the right place… but i have explained that in the previous post…

so you studied art and you ask me what is content of Michelangelo or Mondrian… content of Michelangelo’s work is most of the time spiritual, religious and biblical, he painted/sculpted stories from the bible usually ordered from the church but he was still adding his interpretation trough character, their form and expressions, David is a THE first human and Michelangelo tried to make his interpretation of THE FIRST HUMAN CREATED, so every detail of that artwork is based on his wish, his goal.
Mondriaan’s content is a composition, color, balance and their aesthetics and co-relation, he did experiments with those elements to active the perfect balance in-between of them…

hope those short explanation are sufficient…

… what i want to insist is not the even story behind works but most of all reason… reason of art, for me, it was always to communicate something even to communicate emotion, abstract, imaginative or real (even if i do exercise in a new softwar it is still just my tool)… and even if there is a point that communicate: is it obvious, is it cheep, is it already so much used that we do not even notice it?

… i went in the school FABRICA, established and lead by Oliviero Toscani (guy who did the advertising for United Colors Of Benetton) who was Andy’s Warhol student, and he showed me that you can communicate even trough simple commercial for the cloths…

… my second teacher was Stanley Kubrick, even if i have never met him, and he teach me how every single detail in the work have to have a motivation and reason and have to communicate on sometimes different artistic levels (and he was working with film in wish there are almost all details that you could imagine to work with).
… my third teacher was Jasujiro Ozu that showed me how to express transcadental feeling trough art…

… when i start my work, i think what i want to say, and defining this it leads me trough all creation process: how do i say it best? how my characters are going to look, their proportions, styling, all but always lead by my first goal which is WHAT I HAVE TO SAY…
… creating a character is not mastering all tools in zBrush it is first of all creating his characteristic which are in the parallel relation of the thing that you want to communicate…

… and what i have already sad: “what the people are posting here is not just a software related technical problem… it is also gallery for their work…” is the reason why this question is on the right place…

#12

Most of of people here are still learning zbrush thats why you will see more technical learning stuffs.

but I dont agree to what you say…
Not artist?
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=024013
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=024181
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=024380
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=023771
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=023917
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=023063
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=020708
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=022440

Artists? :

We could discuss for years about what an artist is…
I dont think you speciall need a content to make an art piece…
Most of guys here are artists.
Ive seen more artists here than in my officila artschool…

#13

Quote:…so you studied art and you ask me what is content of Michelangelo or Mondrian… content of Michelangelo’s work is most of the time spiritual, religious and biblical, he painted/sculpted stories from the bible usually ordered from the church but he was still adding his interpretation trough character, their form and expressions, David is a THE first human and Michelangelo tried to make his interpretation of THE FIRST HUMAN CREATED, so every detail of that artwork is based on his wish, his goal.
Mondriaan’s content is a composition, color, balance and their aesthetics and co-relation, he did experiments with those elements to active the perfect balance in-between of them…

…

So, you also studied art, I hope you will find the content here!
My counter-question brought the answer.

#14

I agree with you dzenid. Almost to the point that I feel your writing to me about my work LOL. Most of the images on this forum are studies, tests, explorations. We make images by hitting render and call ourselves artists.

For me i think the problem is most artists have to make a living executing someones elses idea. Be it the directors vision, the TD’s, the concept artist’s, or the client’s.

I’ve done alot of “studies” in zbrush, a) because its good practice, i enjoy the challenge, and B) its what gets me a job. Thats not to say we dont get input, but at the end of the day we are generally trying to please someone else.

The second problem is 3d art is a heck of alot of work. Most ppl arent equally skilled at modeling, texturing, riggin (potentially), animating, and lighting. Ive done all of those things at the film level but have come nowhere close to making a 'finished" piece in zbrush.

This is a great great forum, but a lot of ppl are new to zbrush (ive got say 5 months under my belt), or use it for just one facet, so that to an extent is the work we see. I snapshot along the way.

#15

thanks for the links Sebcesoir, i hadn’t seen some of the great work in those threads…

thanks for the topic dzenid, i hadnt realized how far from my illustration background and approach id gotten.

I do think though that the lack of “art” (containing content and form) is directly related to the small percentage of ppl using zbrush as a 2d medium.

#16

Well it is certainly an interesting debate you have put forth… not really. You have managed to stir up the age old debate of the definition of art. Despite your notions otherwise that is exactly where this discussion will lead. There are already signs in your post and the posts of others leading to this inevitable no-win scenario. I do not make a living at producing fine art. In fact few people on this forum do that. I make a moderate side income doing illustration for marketing and package design. But in the end I am a creative person. So yes, in that respect, I consider myself an artist. You had best tread carefully before you come into this forum and begin insulting its members. Your statements are inflammatory and by their very nature insulting. ZBrush Central is a forum for the ZBrush software created by Pixologic. This forum is maintained and moderated by Pixologic. It was put forth in an effort to provide ZB users an avenue to communicate with, teach, and share with one another their experiences using this software. It is not an art forum. It is not governed by the elitism that rules those types of forums. There is no panel sitting by waiting to pass judgement on images that are posted. There is no waiting list to get in. “Art” is a happy byproduct of this forum. And that is where we begin to delve into the purely subjective. That is where you are taking us with this debate. Content? It is all good if someone somewhere walks away with a better understanding of this software. So before you go wagging off at the mouth about the inadequacies of “content” at ZBC you should perhaps establish yourself as an authority on the subject and mayhap, I dare say, build your community relationship here at ZBC. You are not off to a good start.

#17

Oliviero Toscani
Stanley Kubrick
Yasujiro Ozu
Andy Warhol

But please use the modern instruments of the 21 Century, as the links, that’s permit to win some time research :wink:

Have fun Zbrushing! :cool:
Pilou

#18

A good teacher is not a warranty!
Most pupils of Rembrandt never got famous. :smiley:

#19

…fist pupil one? G Dou :wink: 1613 1675
Pilou
Ps
Bio said

Dou’s work was very popular and continued to be influential until the mid-19th century when appreciation for precision in painting declined under the influence of impressionism.
:lol:

#20

you know content and form and viceversa.
Andreseloy

please…