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Zbrush Bug report / possible key feature.

ZBrush Artworks
#1

Hi, I have found a bug in zbrush that keep us from achieving something very useful. It may not be a bug since no other software (that I know of) can achieve this but this is a functionality that all game developer would love to have. It is almost possible in Zbrush and if one day it become possible, I know many people that would buy Zbrush for that functionality alone.

Take a look at this Wolf…

The wolf was built in 3d Studio Max, it have no mapping coordinates and I have to use only one texture. There is no way that I will be able to do a good job with only one texture by applying a planar, spherical, cylindrical or other mapping coordinates.

What I need to do is detach some faces, clone them, Take the cloned faces, open them and align then so they become flat, like a plane3d (Fig. 1). Then reattach all the faces together so they become one object and then assign planar mapping coordinates to it. Then I morph the flat wolf back to it’s original shape and there I have a wolf with perfect mapping ready for texturing.

The problem is that it take more time to flatten the model than it takes modeling it.
A quick solution to this is to run a script that detach all the faces, align them together (fig 1.) and them morph back.

[img]http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1020518585qta.jpg[/img]

It almost work but not quite.

Since all faces are not connected together there will be seams. Look at the wolf again and try to find a way to open it and make it flat keeping all faces attached to each other ! This takes way longer than modeling the character and seams are inevitable. We have to try to hide them as well as we can.

You guys must find a way to eliminate this seam. If you do, I’m sure many people in the gaming industry will want their copy of zbrush ASAP !

I created the texture (Fig. 1) while painting on the wolf. It was all going well and I could see no seams in ZBRUSH (except when I rotated the model)

This is how it look in Zbrush:

This is how it looks with the same texture in 3d studio max. Everywhere the faces are not connected to each other, there is a black seam.

I created a Ztool that you can use to check this problem.

It’s a simple Plane3d and I separated it in two parts, Assigned a planar mapping and then morphed it back to normal. The mapping look like this:

Load the model, paint on it and check how the texture is drawn. When it is textured, if you rotate it, you will see where the seam will be if the texture is used in an other software.

This is what I get when rendered in 3d studio max with the zbrush texture:

Here is a close up of the seam:

My 2 cents, I hope it helps.

#2

The break, plannar and morph stuff is an old way. Now there are better ways for organic. But if you keep liking that (and also you already have some knowledge on that method) you could use this perhaps differnt script:
http://www.chilliweb.co.uk/

If not, you may just try to make in UVW Max window, bigger chunks in mapping (I am now talking of not touching the mesh, so no morph, no break , etc. You just edit the UVs inside Max) For example a big one for a side view of the wolf which you may make coincident with same plannar view from the other side (but then u force texture to be simetric) If you make to different plannar maps for 2sides of the wolf…then try your best to sew (weld vertex) at the spine to remove uv seam there. Leave the stomach seam. (like if you’d be disecting the wolf by the stomach, so needed perhaps to flip vertically the UVs of one of the views) Ok, My advice is you may have included in that general side view-plannar map the legs(less seams). As always those vertex overlapped at the border of the legs, you’ll wish to separate them and give them the real distances in real world. More ore less. To avoid distortion.Do so with stomach vertex, which would be all overlapped for the projection’s direction (but that area is not important)

For the head, you could use a cilindric map putting the seam (in Max you control that seam with the mapping gizmo, an advantage u don’t have in other mappers) on the throat and sew the vertex on the neck base to the torso, but exactly those to be welded, those coincident in 3d. Is difficult to tell how.

An easier way for the head is just to have included it in the general wolf side view (but mapping a human would be more complex) and just fix the amount of overlapped vertex seen at the silloute of the head mapping. just ‘open’ that areas putting a bit away those vertex, trying to keep the proportions, order, etc as they are in 3d. This tech of mapping I think is called profiling.

All the time use a checker board texture to check distortions (need to see always little squares, not very different in sides, and and really square) and bad alignements of that square’s net, which can be seen on seams.

This is a dirtily explained dirty method…explained by a not professional (not english speaker) guy, with little time also…And is a method which all the time relies on UV map coordinates modification rather than really modify the mesh.It’s not a better method. You’d probably achieve best results with chilli skinner script for Max.Try this script first as you’re used to the concept which is bellow, and check if it allows you fewer seams in some setting. Generally there’s a golden rule, or at least it’s what my poor brain can get: MOre seams, maybe less distortions. More distortions in mapping, maybe because you forced that to have less seams (though if you wrecked it you’ll have all the problems ;D) You can allow some distortion if do it clever and where it doesn’t look bad. Generally be careful in the heads, try to assign a bigger texture-map area for the head and face.

Well, anyone could write a book about this, and I am perhaps the worst person to do it. Go search on the net, there are good tuts about this…

I don’t use Max for money problems ;D. I use freeware utilities for mapping. Unwrap3d is not free but a really powerfull mapping solution: http://www.unwrap3d.com It’s really by far my favourite solution, and the developer is crazily active so expect lots of improvements.

However, you still can download Uvmapper classic (free) or buy Uvmapper pro. You can’t get LithUnwrap free anymore, but the comercial version of it, Unwrap3d, is almost half the price than Uvmapper Pro. It is more preferred by Poser users because among other things it had more support for quads. Now Unwrap3d have that also. By the way, LithUnwrap use to be preferred between real time game content creators. Good mapping can be achieved with the four things, the 2 comercial and the two free ones. Also with Max mapping window.

There’s been released Deep Uv a very advanced solution. Really with the other options I think it would be really to much money to spend.

Lastly there’s a comercial cheap pluggin called Texture layers for Max. Which is pure magic, if it’s like they say. In your situation may be something to consider.

Heck, I don’t know if I helped some way.
But well…

#3

not sure this will help but chose
3D PLANE.
Export as a OBJ.
RE IMport using the polymesh 3Dtool.
put it on the canvas activate edit mode.
under TOOL}Modfyers go to (TEXTURE) click (UVP)once.
now apply your texture.
export as a OBJ and try it from there.
if i was you try the TEXTURE MASTER.
then export the image maps from there. http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002034

#4

As EZ said, it sounds like your easiest solution will be to use the TextureMaster. First, edit the UV map in Max to smooth it out as best you can – the better your job mapping, the better your texture will inevitably be. Then use the TextureMaster for your texturing. Since you are painting directly onto your 3D object, you are able to let ZBrush distort your work to make it fit the texture map. Much easier than trying to distort the texture yourself in order to make it fit the object!

If you don’t already have TextureMaster, you can download it and a tutorial for it in This Thread.

#5

Tanks for all the info and links Drawingtroll. I know ChilliSkinner, it is the script that I use.

The thing is that no mather what techniques you use to open up your mesh or prepare your mapping, it still take long to open up everything correctly. The way I’m talking about can be done with scripts in a cople clicks inside 05-10 minutes and we’d get 0 seam.

button1 = Detach all faces
bouton2 = Reattach all faces (so that no vertices are welded)
bouton3 = layout the faces and assing planar mapping
then morph

Very easy, quick and a lot less boring. When I finish modeling something I usualy want to paint on it right away, not unmodel it :slight_smile:

but no 3d paint program can paint correctly on separated faces yet. I think that the first 3d painter that can do this corectly will have an edge over the competition. Zbrush can do everything perfectly it works well but there is a seam. looks like a antialiasing problem.

Instead of preparing your model and make custom textures for each specific mapping coordinates, you can just draw something and then use your drawing as a texture while you paint on your model with texture master.

Like let’s say we paint some fur on the wolf and then we want to add an eye. we can draw a great looking eye in Zbrush or Photoshop and then use it as a texture and paint it over the fur. This way you can do your texturing directly on the model or the traditional way. I think this would be a very eficient way to do things.

EZ: This would work perfectly on a plane 3d but not on the wolf.

#6

for a sample use the method above as i said on a 3D SPHERE you will get NO Seams.
if you can compare by lets say use a 3D SPHERE and just click on texture .01 thats the arizona landscape texture it shows a good seam just by using (sphere and texture)
now when you use the method above as i said you will not get none.
post the wolf .OBJ let me look or 3DS or what ever format it is

#7

but this is planar maping, if I assign it to the front of the wolf, there is no way that I will be able to texture the back, sides, bottom or top of it corectly with only one texture map.

Try it with a cube.

#8

use the texture master.
import your flat texture.
when you hit DROP in the texture master it will asign you the SIMPLE Brush now chose
STROKE (DRAG RECT)Boost your intensity up.
you may need to chose another ALPHA brush.
make sure the B&F is on thats texture FRONT & BACK. spin your wolf around and keep adding you can allso FLIP your texture when painting in the TEXTURE Palette.
open up the TEXTURE pallete you will see the texture it makes.
to better understand it chose SHOW AND TELL and chose the RHINO.
IF you try and texture with a flat texture iamge and rap it the top will meet the bottom so the texture master is going to be your best bet you can eye ball it

#9

Hi

You can reduce the problem using tmaster as mentioned. But anyway, my opinion is that -even more in low game art- the more you work on uv mapping, the less problems and the more quality in the texture. I am not talking about all this as if I had to check it. I know, and I have my -complex and hard, I know- uv methods to reduce those problems to zero.

I suspect that if all is made inside zbrush and starting from a 3d sphere problems are widely reduced, but at the end still think getting drty in mapping proccess is a total need for low polygon creation. Unluckily, dealling with Max (or LightWave) is a need sooner or later in the whole proccess in games (animation, etc) so the people at the end learn they have to deal with Max, and make things ‘seamless’ with it.

I think there is no magic for that. Is a very specific genre and every character you make needs a lot of work in modelling, uv mapping and texturing. I can 2d paint (with continuos 3d checking) on templates or 3d paint. And yet can do both ways, I prefer the second for speed and control.

The more you mess with uvs, the more flexibility you’ll get and ability to use later on whatever the software.
Well, anyway that’s an opinion.

I like the way you modelled that low pol wolf.

#10

Tanks, it’s been fun to model, but the wolf is a pain to flatten. I used Texture master to generate the textures.

Starting with a lowpoly sphere and modeling a low poly character with zbrush would be ideal for mapping but then again we can’t add or remove any faces or we lose our maping. I think I would’ve had a hard time modeling the mouth of the wolf starting from a sphere.

Wouldn’t you like to be able to run a script that would automatically do all your UVmapping work and give you a model ready for Zbrush texturing in less than 5 min ? :slight_smile:

Fix this seam guys, it’s worth it :slight_smile:

Having to paint on this kind of texture

in Photoshop may not be very eficient. But if we use Zbrush’s Texture Master, it’s just perfect since we can paint with any texture we want directly on the model and the pixels of the textures will are placed at the right places on the main texture.

#11

gasp…that’s a really big bunch of pieces…

You don’t need to do everything with plannar. Cilindric here and there could help…Bigger groups, hiding seams…that’s an advice.

As a Max user you maybe interested in these tuts…though some steps maybe unnecesary in these days 4.x max versions…
http://www.planetquake.com/polycount/resources/halflife/tutorials.shtml

There are also Milkshape tuts. That’s a 20$ complete tool for game low pol stuff. You can buy without visa.

But Max is much better.

#12

Well, here’s a tut for max 4, sadly just inorganic but shows the tools…
http://www.planetfortress.com/tf2models/tuto/tuto_Skinmeshing.htm

and these…
http://www.planetquake.com/polycount/cottages/pixelated/three.shtml

Edit: (I always found really usefull Hyper’s tutorials)