ZBrushCentral

Why do we need "clean typology"?

Before I got into 3D with Maya I always thought it was as simple as to just create a model and rigg him to animate then render. I have read books and done some drawings on Anatomy but what I dont understand a few I think imporant things:

  1. Why the need for a low res mesh?
  2. Why clean typology?

Zbrush is an ease to me but my models from Zbrush have to much of a ploy count.

  1. Should I start in Maya to model from Photo references? If so then how do I know how the typology should go?

Look at the little amount of ploy count on this photo. How can he still have so much detail as to the shape and wrinkles displayed here?
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how.jpg

I think you are looking at a subdivided mesh, so it actually has a much higher poly-count than is shown by the wireframe.

http://subdivisionmodeling.com/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=What+is+sub-division+modeling

Ok im even more confused now…
I am modeling my organic model in maya with box modeling. I want to rigg him and texture.

At what stage should I send him over to Zbrush and at what stage should i render him at in Maya?

I’m new too, and if I didn’t have low polygon character I’d find it impossible to animate (haven’t got that far). It would be hard to create morphs if I had to deal with thousands of polygons around a mouth or eye just to get it open, or to get bones weight maps painted and deform right.

But a side effect of using low polygons is good topology for edge flow and deformations. As you’ll most likely use subdivided smoothing (more polygons than you see) for the model at render time, and you’ll want the polygons to smooth and flow into curves that match features of the character, like around ears, mouth opening, eye sockets. If it was random topology, smoothing wouldn’t get much done, it would be hard to add details and move things. So in a way, good topology and low polygons can be used to create great detail without the need for 10 times as much random polygons that would be permanent and hard to manage.

Not to mention 3D animation programs can’t handle huge amount of polygons sometimes like Zbrush does, so being efficient seems to be really important. Combining displacment maps when needed, or normal maps to to add incredible detail without having to use millions of polygons at render time like displacement would need.

An example:

Look at this low base mesh for a mouse head I made out of a polysphere, the flow around the eyes and other areas is not existent, so it’s pretty bad and subdivide smoothing would lack detail unless I used the high subdivision with 1.9 million polygons for the entire head with ears:

http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_007.jpg

Now look at how I went to the high subdivision and used Zbrush to plan the retopology with painting, keeping the polygons as even sized as possible, 4 sided, and made them flow with the shape of the face, like loops around the eye:

http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_008.jpg

Now look at the new mesh of just the face, and then smoothed, showing how when smoothed, it flows with the curves, remains sharp, but lacks real detail at the moment.

low poly: http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_009.jpg

Smoothed: http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_011.jpg

I had planned to add full detail like lips, eye lids, nose with displacement maps. Like you see here in Zbrush in this earlier version: http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_005.jpg

But when it came to animation, trying to use such a high polygon mesh or the low poly you saw first with displacement map would be too hard to manage and animate. Not to mention taxing on the system. I kept getting errors too displacements.

I gave up and took the retopology of the entire head and opened it in Hexagon, my modeling program and added the features with only a couple extra loops, so once smoothed it did better than a displacement map at a fraction of the polygons.

Note, the original sphere at the level of detail I wanted in Zbrush was 1.9 million polygons. WIth the retopology, the same detail in zbrush was only 300,000 because now all the polygons started off even around the head, no spots that had 5 times as many for no reason.

In the next image, look at the basic mesh of the head unsmoothed afte rI messed with it in Hexagon, and then smoothed. And you’ll see having it low poly means closing an eye, raising an eyebrow can be done with little work:

So notice the detail once smoothed, curves and folds around the eyes, the sharp lips. And it was only subdivided and smoothed enough so it’s 20,000 polygons there, not 300,000 to get similar results with a displacement map, and the placement and flow of the topology worked to my benefit. You have to exagerate a little as smoothing relaxes things. And now if I wanted to lower the eyelid, it’s only a small amount of polys, and will flow naturally:

But I’m just a newb so some the more advance stuff, I don’t know how it works. This is only one reason to work this way. By cutting the polys as much as you can will make your system praise you once you setup a whole scene and creating morphs are simple. Even simple loops around an elbow allows it to bend more naturally, and other joints.

Of course this might only work in certain workflows. You might start a face or body in Zbrush, and a certain point before you go into too much detail, you should retopology it, then get in as much detail as you can or need, then go further in zbrush to add finer details to be later used with the lower mesh as a dispalcement or normal map.

Do you have to box model, what about just modeling polygon by polygon sometimes.
Take a look at the first video on the left on this page, then look at the smoothed face on the first video on the right:
http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/software/hexagon/-/features?

You can see how the left video shows a kind of workflow for a face, and switching to smoothing on and off to see the results. Then the video on the right shows a entire face with a ton of detail, but easy to move and change thanks to it starting off with a low mesh. And at that point, or eariler, one can take it into Zbrush, create wrinkles and more detail for a displacement map. And use a normal map for fine skin texture.

I’m still a newb again. I’d guess when you want to move a character you are doing into zbrush depends. I mean you want to get the most you can out of the low mesh after smoothing and not have to rely on displacement too much. I mean, you can leave a head on a body just a simple sphere, then model the face onto it in zbrush, and while it will modify the head at low mesh to resemble the final shape, but how would you animate it if it was mostly done by a displacment map.

For me, I found I can run into too many complications by doing too much at once in Zbrush. I might use Zbrush to start a character, get a basic shape like what I want, then retopology it real quick, then continue modeling it in Maya or whatever and take it back to zbrush when you got the mesh setup enough to where it can be animated easily.

Man my humble gratitude to you! I was so confused before as how to work around both programms and that explaination has just cleared everything for me up very nicely!
Thank you sooo muchh!
That was very clear!

I know what I was doing before that was wrong, my created meshes in Zbrush didnt have a good edge flow to them as I only worked in Zbrush through out…so I am going to bring my low res mesh back into maya and retopologise it and then back to zbrush and sclupt and then create my maps!!!

I edited my last post with some more stuff.

Also, for a quick body shape, zspheres can be kind of cool and have a basic good edge flow.

Like this body I did for the mouse, there are certain limitations, but I was surpised I got this far, but simpler for a human body with limbs.:
http://other.toonguru.com/3D/zbrush/brisby_wip_015.jpg

Then I was able to model even more detail into it, but finally decided to take the low mesh of what I had done and continue with it in my modeling program. Though, I spent way too much time to do the hands with zsphere. And will need to have some polygons reduced in that area, but most the topology looks good.
http://other.toonguru.com/3D/low_poly2.jpg

Here’s a spinning video with both the head an the body I had gotten to all within Zbrush. Right now I’m going to use it as a guide to get as close as I can with the low poly smoothing.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=y5lAQKsGG2k

You’ll learn a lot with your first character and may take some time and hopefully come up with a method that’s the fast for you and such.