ZBrushCentral

which software

Hello,

im a complete novice to this so in order to fully understand everything i need a basic process in my head to work from.

what i wish to know is the order in which to do things?

for example ive watched several videos and they seem to start in maya, to do the blocky style of designing, then they go into zbrush, then back to maya then im not sure where they go after that.

one question, can you start just in zbrush build up the model in there, read somewhere you cant because of the amount of polygons? – so im guessing when the model is made in maya it has a limited amount of polygons that you have to work around if you start in there then import to zbrush.

also what software do you take it too after all the modelling texturing etc is done, is it lightwave or something, i would like to learn 3d animation, but im but zoned around web design, as i feel im at the point of natural progression, where the software i use for web design " fireworks " is no longer just to my needs so i have to use multiple software applications.

what im basically trying to achieve is create landscapes in bryce and characters in zbrush combine them then export them to fireworks, as well as create 3d scenes, just to take the web design work that one step further.

thank you for any help

regards neil.

also i have got hexagon, is this equal to maya in its abilities, it seems like a fairly piece of software to use, btw - zbrush is amazing thats the first thing i said when i used it

Original post by neilparnham:

“also i have got hexagon, is this equal to maya in its abilities,”
Comparing Hexagon to Maya is like comparing a Honda Civic to a Lamborghini. The cost of Maya 2011 is $3495.00 and the cost of Hexagon 2.5 is $104.97.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t have anything against Hexagon. In fact, I use it myself and I think it’s great. It’s a really nice cheap, quick modeler and texturing package, but it’s not Maya. I think Maya would definately be overkill in your case if your only going to use 3D animation for web design. If you want a really decent 3D animation package, then check out Blender. It’s Open Source and doesn’t cost a cent and has some very powerful capabilities from modeling to texturing to animation to compositing.

I use Poser, Zbrush and then VUE. Vue is much like Bryce in function. but you have DAZ with Bryce, so that sets your figure and world modeling. Zbrush to add more detail. As for high polly count, use the Decimation plugin for Zbrush. its a free download in the download section. For further modeling you might like Silo 3D, its cheap and is an organic modeler like Zbrush. I use Vue or Poser for animation. Can you animate in Bryce?

I avoid Maya, Max and C4D… Too expensive for my hobbyist blood. I plan to use Blender for fluid and physics based animations. Its an Opensource program for box modeling and Sculpting. It has tools for full animation as well. It just has a tough learning curve much like most high end 3D packages. :o

hello, thank you for the feedback on my post - its valuable to me - as i like a basic idea of what im doing in my head then the finer details add their place - like a mind map.

Hi,
I hope the other posts have answered your question, but just in case, I will try to help out as well.

Some people will make a model starting in a 3d package, such as Maya, Blender, etc. They will create the basic form of the model in this package.

The reason for this is that they can create the basic shape they are after in but keep the poly count down. This means that the object has very few polygon in its design. They can also concentrate on putting more polys in places they believe they need more detail for movement etc.

Once they have the basic shape, they can move the model over to Zbrush, using GoZ, or other methods.

There the model can be subdivided many times so there are lots more polys, millions even. Then very find detail can be added to the rough model that has already been created.

Once the detail has been generated, this detail can be transfered back to the original 3D program as both displacement and normal maps, rather than just sending the model back with millions of polys. Most regular 3D packages would grind to a halt if given models with millions of polys.

The advantage of this is that the 3D package still has a model with a low poly count, so it is easy to manipulate, and easy to animate, but all the high detail is still present, thanks to the normal and displacement maps, and when rendered, looks great.

Therefore you have the advantage of having a model with low polycount, but thanks to the maps, having good looking detail on render.

On a side note, another poster mentioned the Decimation plugin for Zbrush. This takes a high poly model, and tries to reduce the poly count, while keeping the form/detail. This means you could make an object in Zbrush, and then try to get the poly count back down to (what ever you find to be ) a reasonable level.

One other solution is also to use ZBrush re-topologise tools. Bit of a learning curve though.

Hope this helps.

at some time i started with 3dsmax, and it never failed me
maya is also fine

just don’t go Poser or Bryce. it’s a bad road for beginners, since it leads people to reuse existing stuff with its limits and bugs, instead of learning to make their own. nothing is free

its not a bad road. Not all art has to be created from the ground up. I use poser to rig my models i create in Zbrush. Poser allows me to access props I have in a giant library. Bryce is fine also. Vue is better. Not all 3D artists go into game design. 90% of us on these forums are hobbyists, would i recommend using a poser character for game design? No, but for making an art piece? Certainly. You 3D purists give artists a bad name. There is no need to limit your tools. Poser and Vue are great for getting over that beginners hump. allows you to produce concept pieces quickly. Not everyone can produce a fully modeled human like many of you claim… stating that this is your first Zbrush sculpt. That is total BS. :rolleyes:

Grid,
be patient. as I said, it’s a bad road for beginners and often ends up with people having portfolios full of tweaked Poser figures imported to Bryce. over the years, I have received and rejected tons of portfolios of this type.

the trick is that usage of any pre-created asset is fine as long as you know how to make it from scratch. otherwise, you are only as good as the art you’rere-using; in case of Poser and Bryce, that’s not high. 8 years in the house, I am yet to see an amazing work done by someone who can’t model, texture or render on his own.

in no way this is an offense to you or anyone else.

It is still an offense. You act as if he has a chance at getting into the industry. no one dose. It takes the shear hand of god to get a job in the industry. So, Yes give Poser a try. It’s your art and do what you want with it. I grow so tired of 3D modeling purists. There are members in the Blender community with the same attitude…

grid, people get jobs for their talent and tenacity. there is no hand of God :lol:

neil, by all means use what you need. for fast art for 3d site, for beginner, poser and bryce will do the job. after that, seek more sources than three repliers on one forum. good luck!

@Gridlost

The issue of Bryce/Poser VS 3dsmax/Maya has nothing to do with elitism. It has to do with clarity of purpose.

Poser, while not a bad program, is best used when in certain, more limited contexts. Poser is a wonderful previsualization tool. It’s great for staging larger scenes that you’ll model or animate later. It’s great for aspiring artists to practice their drawing without the aid of a live model. In the hands of a good modeler or digital painter, some good, final art can indeed come out of Poser. Just know that it’s not about the program, in this case. It’s about the artist using the program. Lousy artist? Make lousy art. Great artist? You’ll be great in whatever app you use. GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out)

With that said, this perceived elitism from what you’d call “3D purists” comes from a position of experience. Have you ever noticed that it is almost always the newbies or those with relative inexperience who defend an app like Poser with their dying breath? The reason is because Poser gives you instant results. Unfortunately, in the hands of a newbie, Poser can also be a crutch. Even in the hands of an experienced artist, Poser has its limits. Poser, for all of its marketing hype, is not really a content generation tool. While you can generate finished works, Poser is more of a content manipulation tool. With no other tool at your disposal, you’re working from somebody else’s content, off of their hard work, and finessing it into something new.

In a more traditional tool like 3dsmax/Maya/C4D, the limits are your imagination and skill. Truthfully, nothing in life ever comes without hard work. You can use Photoshop to manipulate a photo for 2 hours and call it art. Likewise, you can actually paint something from scratch in 2 weeks. In the former example, you may be able to bang out quicker results, but you’re limited by the photo. In the latter, it may take longer, but you’re only limited by your talent.

Like I said, what you might perceive as somebody thumbing their nose at Poser is really just experience talking. Poser art is derived work. I’m not saying that you can’t create anything nice looking with it. However, ultimately, you’re really just deriving something new from models created by artists not actually using Poser. Poser is a middle man with a defined and limited purpose. In a more traditional program like Maya, you’re creating something from nothing. It takes longer, but it is reflected in the end product. It will speak of your style, as well as your skill. With Poser, no matter how much tweaking you do, there will always be that hint of the original modeler’s own style and skill.

Just for the sake of argument, let’s say that Poser is every bit the high end modeling tool that some Poser fans claim it is. Poser is the end all be all. Praise Poser! Let’s build statues in its honor. If Poser were so great, why would Pixar not have already switched to it? Too big of an example? Why don’t you see a huge amount of high quality hobbyist short films coming out of the poser world? Still too big of an example? Okay. Why isn’t Poser the #1 tool of choice at schools teaching 3D?

Be honest with yourself. Is it because Pixar, the basement film maker, or even the institutions are all elitist? Hardly.

Poser is like the magnifying glass in a 100 tool Swiss Army knife. A magnifying glass has it’s use. Sometimes, it’s all you need. However, wouldn’t you prefer the whole knife instead? You may not ever need the fishing line or nail file, but at least they’re there. What you can do with the whole knife is so much greater than what you can do with just the magnifying glass. Poser is good, but all you’ll ever be doing is magnifying the hard work of somebody else.

You talk about how impenetrable “the industry” is; how impossible it is to get a professional job. Remember, it’s all about skill and patience. No offense, but I look at your website and I don’t see experience. Respectfully, I see the work of a relative newbie. Your website is a micro-sized picture of you as an artist. When I look at what you have there, I don’t see any strong sense of composition & staging. I don’t see focus. I don’t see any working knowledge of anatomy. I don’t see a working grasp of 3D beyond (some of) the fundamentals. I mean, really, you even have a ZB doodle mixed in there with your “finished” art. This doodle is so rough and, frankly, bad that it’s embarassing. Your website is your calling card. In many cases, it is also the first impression you’ll make. Putting stuff like that only makes it easier for people to dismiss you as a rank amateur.

If you’ve had a problem getting a job as a professional 3D artist… Hate the player, not the game. Getting a job as a pro 3D artist isn’t the Herculean task you make it out to be. It just requires a lot more than what you’re bringing to the table, at the moment. Keep at it though.

As far as the old question of “which program is better” goes, there are 2 answers:

  1. It all comes down to skill. No one program is “best”, as it is the skill of the artist which matters most. Use what you like best.
  2. It all depends on what industry you wish to enter.

Answer 1 is the safe answer. Nobody here would really disagree that skill trumps what tool you use. Obviously, if you suck, it doesn’t matter how fancy or expensive your app is. If you’re talented, you’ll always be talented. It may be more difficult to get results in a more underpowered app, but you’ll still shine.

Answer 2 is trickier. Ask yourself, “What do I want to do for a living?” That may end up defining what app you choose. So, even though Maya, C4D, 3dsmax, and Softimage may all be functionally comparable, they serve some fundamentally different industries. There will always be overlap. You’ll always see other apps being used in an industry that is dominated by one specific app. However, to be clear, certain industries do favor certain 3D apps. This is really rooted in each app’s own history and tradition.

For many years, prior to Windows, 3D Studio DOS was the premiere app of choice for game art. In fact, for many years, it was practically the only game in town for serious game artists. As the years passed, other competitors came into the picture and 3D Studio DOS wasn’t the only game in town. However, because it had been used for so many years and by so many game artists, it became a defacto tool of choice.

As DOS gave way to Windows and 3D Studio DOS evolved into 3dsmax, it became known as THE tool for game artists. That’s not to take anything away from Maya as a game art tool. Not at all. Maya rocks. It is used to make content for a lot of games. You’ll find a lot of jobs in that industry if that’s the tool you use. Browsing through the jobs though, you might end up finding more of a skew toward 3dsmax. 3ds has a lot of history in that industry.

Similarly, Maya has a long and illustrious history in the film world, dating back to its pre-Maya Power Animator days. That’s not to say that you won’t find films that use 3ds, C4D, or any other app. In fact, movies and TV use whatever gets the job done best & quickest. That’s why a lot of film studios like Pixar develop their own tools. However, as with 3ds, you’ll find that Maya’s market leans more to one industry (film) over another. A lot of other reasons for that, such as it being more of an “open” app, but history plays a big part in all of this.

I’m not pulling this out of my @$$, btw. Just look at how Autodesk markets each app. Check out their customer stories. Check out the job listings. You’ll definitely see overlap, but you’ll also see more of a bias. Plus, it’s not as if a studio that has 30 seats of Maya and has been using it for 10 years will be so willing to change to 3dsmax. Such a software migration is expensive, as is having to retrain or replace every artist.

Cinema4D is more of a tricky beast. Had you asked this question a couple of years back, I might have called it a “jack of all trades” sort of app. It is as competent as the other tools. It has been used in many films over the years, mostly for matte work. It has been used in a number of TV shows, ad campaigns, and so forth. It has even been used in texturing pipelines, thanks to its BodyPaint3D module.

However, these past few years have been more… defining… for C4D. Maxon has developed Cinema4D in such a way that it has largely become the tool of choice for Motion Graphics artists. You’ll find a lot of jobs in mograph that require Cinema4D. The app does that task very well. That’s not to say that C4D isn’t used in other industries. However, I defy you to find a job at a major game or film studio that explicitly requires C4D instead of Maya or 3dsmax. It just doesn’t happen. Cinema4D might get tossed into the pipeline by an artist who’s familiar with and fond of it, but it’s hardly a job requirement in those industries. In the past year, I think I saw maybe one film job, far overseas, that required C4D over the other guys.

As hard as this may be to accept, if you want to “go pro” then you also might have to “go Autodesk” as a result of that desire. AD has the top 3 CG apps in their stable: Maya, 3dsmax, Softimage. With other competition out there, they don’t technically hold a monopoly, but they do hold a signficant, relevant market share. If you aspire to one day work in specific industries, get to know one of those Autodesk apps now. You’ll find more work.

Again, there’s a lot of overlap in terms of functionality and purpose. Don’t feel as if, because you chose Maya over 3dsmax, that you’re screwed. You’re not. My suggestion is that you find out what you want to do & work your way backwards from there.

Games: 3dsmax (Maya & Softimage too, but more 3dsmax imho)
Film: Maya (3ds & Softimage too, but certainly to lesser exents.)
MoGraph: Cinema4D
ArchVis: A lot of ArchVis guys prefer 3dsmax or C4D, but really ANY app goes. It all comes down to precision & rendering.

I don’t want to discount the power of the other guys. Other apps like C4D, Houdini, & Lightwave exist, but it’s hard to deny that Autodesk is a juggernaut. If all you ever want to be is a hobbyist, use whatever you want. However, if you seriously want to turn pro, Poser just isn’t going to cut it.