ZBrushCentral

time to choose...

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#1

ok, so I am thinking about getting rither Cinema 4D, or Maya… I have a mac, so this may be a factor. What I’m wondering, is in your personal opinion, what are the advantages/disadvantages of either of these (in conjunction with Zbrush)? You don’t have to know both programs to answer this question, just your own experience with one or the other. What are the good/bad things about Maya when working with Z.B., and/or what are the good/bad of C4D?

also, I am looking forward to the release of V.3 on a Mac!!!

Thanks so much for your help, and any info pertaining to this will be useful for me. Thanks!

~Tweek :smiley:

#2

I dont know cinema 4D, it seems to be a very good program…

But if I had to choose, I would surely go to maya, simply because its one of the industry standard with max…

Expecially if you plan to work in cg, better choose a programm you have a lot of chances to use in production.

If you dont work or plan to work in Cg, maybe theres no matter and you can freely choose the one you prefere…

My 2 cent opinion :wink:

#3

yeah, I think that’s a great idea! The more I can incorporate those things into Zbrush, the better. I have done some work in Cinema 4d, and I am relativly new to 3D in general, but I do know that Maya is KNOWN in animation, production in film, and the web. Are there ceratin things in Maya that you down’t like? and if so, what are they?

thanks!

~Tweek

#4

How much you got?

#5

how much what do I have?

#6

Hi all.
I think iran it’s best country for buy things like cd! In IRAN i can buy zb3,max9,maya8.5 and cinema 4d whit 10 dollers!!
and all of them are full version and unlimit!

What’s your idea about my country?

#7

I think people are saying its a matter of money. C4d is a fine program, but if money is not an issue, Maya would be a much better investment. I havent checked pricing recently, but as far as I know Maya is a much pricier program, but it is a film and television standard, with pretty much any kind of third party support you could want for. C4d caters to a slightly different market.

#8

C4D is rock solid! Download the Demo from Maxon and try it out. The demo does not expire. But you cannot save. It allows you to explore it nicely. C4D is my personal choice now.
Rainer

#9

Yeah. Maya may be the de facto industry standard, but there’s no reason not to give C4D a good hard look. It rocks like nobody’s biz. v10.5 adds in some extra slick character animation tools which rival some of the industry’s best. I’ve been a C4D user for about 5 years now. I can certainly say I’ve never been disappointed with a single one of their releases.

I know of a lot of C4D users who also work with ZB3. You wouldn’t be alone.

BTW, contrary to popular belief, C4D’s core markets aren’t just motion graphics or archvis. It has been used prominently in many Hollywood films over the years. Maya tends to hog the spotlight though, even if programs such as 3dsmax, LW, or C4D were used just as much. It’s a public relations thing. Maya’s got huge word of mouth. C4D has been gaining a strong foothold, despite being in the US market for far fewer versions than any other high end app.

As far as what studios and vfx houses use… LOTS. :slight_smile: I know some film guys who use Silo and Blender in their workflow. They use whatever gets the job done. A lot of houses use custom tools too. I’d say, keep the focus on your craft. Put together the absolute best porfolio possible. You can pick up the basics of any other program later, whatever app you settle on.

#10

Two assumptions:

  1. How much you got assumes all things are equal and that
    means if you decide on Maya you can afford it, without selling
    your oldest into Bondage.
  2. You are looking with the idea of somehow using it in making
    a living, which if you ain’t, see #1

Having made this assumption, wherever you live right now
try to find books about Cinema; DVD’s, School courses.
Pickings are few, means you are basically stuck with the manual
and perhaps one book, one dvd etc.
Now look around in places such as Gnomon for free stuff, like tutorials
Anything about Cinema there. No. If so, dam little.

The expression “industry standard” has been used here regarding Maya.
Rightly so.
Gnomon, for instance, was founded originally, if I have it right, because
movie people were looking to hire Maya guys and there weren’t many around.

Look at the highend site, home of plugins (free) for the popular 3d programs.
Cinema?

Not knocking the program, friend has it, like body paint. (sort of a zbrush)

But.

Cut to the chase, if you wish to really learn a program, pick one that
you can take to a higher limit, with great support material.
Cinema ain’t it.
Pick one that is used in a variety of well paying areas.
Cinema ain’t it.

Autodesk owes me:D

Luck with your choice.

Edit: you use zbrush, do a search of this forum for maya and cinema.
See how many questions about integration for each one.
Tips for workflow. Renders using the separate programs.
Speaking of renders, Mental Ray anyone?

#11

…DELETED BY ME…

Although I still believe that bicc is by and large being one sided and somewhat ill-informed, I’d rather not get into a pissing contest. Its not professional of me. I’ll take put my enthusiasm to better pursuits.

Use what you’re gonna use. Both programs are indeed professional calibre. Both programs have been used in many high profile movies, tv commercials, tv shows, print ads and so forth. (Games being c4d’s biggest neglected market.) Both apps have support for many 3rd party renderers. Both apps are crtically and commercially acclaimed.

If you wish to know my opinion regarding C4D, please PM me or e-mail me at [email protected]. I’ll be happy to answer whatever questions I can, based on my 18-19 years of personal & pro CG experience.

My apologies for deleting the previous version of this post.

Thanks,

Rob

#12

Mental Ray, iirc correctly, is one of the few major 3rd party renderers that C4D doesn’t have support for.

C4D is currently supported by FinalRender, VRay, Maxwell, FryRender, and Pixar Renderman. Renderman support is via direct request from Maxon and is usually only requested by accredited studios. 3rd Party renderer support is not a huge issue with C4D anymore.

(I’d have mentioned a lack of Turtle support, but I believe that’s not a cross platform solution anyway - being limited to Maya only status.)

BTW, if you’re quoting thread statistics, check CG Talk while you’re at it. CG Talk is one of the world’s largest CG communities. Right now, there are about 312k Maya posts and about 256k C4D posts. Lot of interest in both camps, especially considering C4D has only been in worldwide release for a little less than 6 years. (Compare that to Maya’s prexisiting pre-Windows user base, which dates as far back as 15-20 years.)

#13

one sided and somewhat ill-informed

All software’s have their groupies who will stick up for
their programs even though they and two of their
neighbors are the only ones using it.
You are about to spend hard earned money and one
helluva lotta time on a program.
The decision rests with you and should not be who
is the best advocate here for their own selfish interests.

Can only suggest what has been mentioned here more than
once.
Download the demo’s, check the tools, see what is comfortable.
If you stilll can’t decide, put what I said here about availability
of learning materials into the mix.
Must reiterate, you can have the best software in the world
but without the knowledge to use it, it is worthless.

Regarding pissing contest, you win, haven’t had one since
I was about 5

#14

All software’s have their groupies who will stick up for their programs even though they and two of their neighbors are the only ones using it.
Evangalists I don’t mind. Fanboys are a different matter entirely. That’s why this type of thread turns into an app war. Objectivity is hard to come by.

The decision rests with you and should not be who is the best advocate here for their own selfish interests.
Agreed. What matters to us is ultimately of little conseqeunce to him. He’s got to live with his choice.

Must reiterate, you can have the best software in the world but without the knowledge to use it, it is worthless.
100x over, I agree with you on this one.

Talent and technique are program agnostic. In the many years I've been doing CG, I've been (un)fortunate enough to use many apps. What I can tell you is that an app is just a tool. You can take your skills anywhere. Knowledge of a program can't make up for a lack of skill and creativity.

Regarding pissing contest, you win, haven’t had one since I was about 5
Darn. Here I was hoping to write my name in the snow. :slight_smile:

Anyway, here are my perceived pros & cons list for C4D, base of 5 years of use. PRO


  • Small learning curve
  • Very strong, production ready character animation and rigging tools, as of v10
  • Fast and accurate hair/fur rendering with robust styling tools
  • Syflex-like cloth dynamics and styling
  • Fully customizable UI with a HUD
  • Availability of multiple 3rd party rendering engines such as VRay, FinalRender Stage2, Maxwell, etc.
  • 100% integrated BodyPaint3D for realtime UV management and texture painting
  • Friendly and helpful customer support
  • A growing library of app specific DVDs and books (not Maya big yet, but getting bigger every month.)
  • Strong poly modeling tools with excellent SDS speed and functionality
  • Strong network rendering with mixed platform (PC/MAC) support and remote clients access
  • Good pipeline integration with ZBrush
  • Highly programmable in 3 different ways - the node based XPresso visual scripting system, the COFFEE programming language, and the C++ SDK.
  • Miscellaneous highlights include: semi-realtime render previews, subpoly displacement, XRefs, layers, clusters, muscle simulation, pelt mapping, excellent documentation, and a relatively small memory footprint
CON


  • Only in worldwide distribution for 6 years, compared to Autodesk’s 20+ (inc. pre-windows Power Animator)
  • XRefs better suited to scenes and objects instead of full animations
  • NLA was temporarily removed - to be reworked to industry specs. (Should be back soon enough if insiders are to be believed.) Practical, user friendly workarounds for now though.
  • Advanced renderer produces good results immediately, but takes time to tweak for excellent renders.
  • Lots of available C4D support material worldwide, much of it is currently stuck being written in Maxon’s native German though.
  • Spline modeling not much of an option here. C4D has some spline modeling tools (lathe, loft, extrude, patch, etc.), but Maya’s is better. Some low cost spline patch modeling plugins though.
  • Renderman renderer support is by request only, afaik, and usually only granted to accredited studios with extensive support contracts.
INDUSTRIES USED IN (or not)


  • Motion Graphics - Very popular here
  • Architectural Visualization - Strong in this area. 3DSMax is probably used more, but the recent addition of 3rd party renderer support to C4D has increased its archvis market substantially.
  • Films and TV: Yep. You don’t hear it, but C4D has been used in a lot of films. Those that sprint to my mind immediately… Spider-Man 1 & 2 (Watch the title sequences), Daredevil, Monster House, Open Season, Star Wars Episodes 1,2, & 3, and many others. Its been used for mattes, some CA animation & modeling, and texture work. C4D was also used extensively for VFX in the recently renewed ABC TV series Pushing Daisies. Sony Imageworks uses C4D and BodyPaint extensively. Simon Wicker used it almost exclusively when he worked at ILM, afaik. I’m sure that Maxon could provide you with many more film credits and testimonials. (Many, they are under NDA and can’t reveal though.)
  • Games: NOPE. Bad game industry support. Its a Maya & 3DSMax world where games are concerned.
  • Web 3D: Meh. Not much of that anyway.
  • Medical visualization: Not so much.
INTENDED USERS


  • Freelancers, small studios, or those in big studios with more flexible pipelines. (Movies use MANY, MANY 3D apps. An artist might use a primary in-house app, but also use secondary and tertiary “off the shelf” apps such as Maya, Silo, C4D and so forth. It depends on the studio.)
NOTE: Most big studios that don’t exclusively use in-house created 3D software are “stuck” in Maya or 3DSMax. Not “stuck” in a “the program sucks” way, but in a “it costs too much to repopulate dozens of workstations and re-train every artist” way. For most studios, Maya or 3DSMax are time proven, battle hardened, and are comfortable to those used to a specific decade long pipeline. That doesn’t make C4D unacceptable or bad, but just the “newcomer”. Take that for what its worth. Try the demo. Ask some other users. Produce some kick@$$ art. :slight_smile:

I'm sure that bicc can come up with a similarly objective list.
#15

No list, just sold Maya, going back to Paint ( comes with windows,
no dvds or manuals, but they are using it for the new Star Trek)

Again, whatever your decision, best of luck

#16

By the by, cmiVFX has a new C4D/ZB integration tutorial online…
http://cgchannel.com/news/viewfeature.jsp?newsid=7052

#17

I only have experience with cinema4d which i have come to love. It’s one of the few 3d total package programs where i felt like I didn’t need to browse through 100’s of manual pages. You could just jump in and make something decent in a short amount of time. The only grief i had with it (some years ago) was the lack of other render engines you could use. Don’t get me wrong, the default scanline renderer is great, but when using it’s radiosity options / displacement and other intense options, it get’s rather slow. But c4d has gotten a real boost ever since other render engines have included bridges for cinema4d, especially Vray as of late.

I have seen wonderful stuff made with cinema4d, but I’m under the impression it is mostly used in the industry for marketing/advertisement motion graphics.

#18

Bicc39… you are so far of… Just check out Cineversity.com for example…
Cheers
Rainer

#19

Bicc39… you are so far of

It’s off. OFF!!!

what else is new.:smiley:

Hows everything?

#20

my eff is shticky! Lol…
Nothing new… still collecting aluminibum in the neighborhood 8).
25lbs! Weekend is casting weekend. Got Propane? HECK YEAHHH!
Rainer