ZBrushCentral

please help...building computer... need outside input so i make the right decision

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#1

hi guys

im looking at new computers and i have a few questions. there are new processors out since i built my first computer and im wondering about the performance differences, if anyone knows about it, feel free to tell me what you like and dont like and whether its as good as its craked up to be.

my current specs: duel os’ windows xp/xp 64
amd athlon 64X2 dual core 2.22 GHz
4X1 GB ddr1 sd ram (4 Gigs)
ASUS a8n sli motherboard (which is dying slowly)
2X nvidia quadro 3500 256MB graphics cards (512mbtotal)

im using MAYA 7 and zbrush and photo shop… (notice i said maya 7) because im also wondering if vista 64 will run maya 7. it might be common sense, but i havent used vista yet but ive heard alot of gripes about it. i just want to make sure those gripes dont include not being able to use my software.

the new specs: windows vista 64
intel core 2 quad 12MB 3 GHz
8GB ddr2 sd ram (4X2GB)
NVidia Gforce GTS 240 1024 MB

the whole deal is really cheap compared to what i payed for my first computer… around 800 is what theyre asking. it comes with a moniter that i can use as a duel for reference. a ton of hardrive space. but i dont think its sli and im wondering about the graphics cards.

questions:

are the quadro cards more efficient with maya and zbrush even though they only equal 512 mb. or is the one game card (gforce) better because it has a gig. i know qaudro’s are supposed to display vectors or grid lines better. not so understanding of what theyre doing, but i noticed a difference once i had first installed them 3 years ago. and they were sooo expensive. any thoughts?

what is the diference of 2.22 ghz from 3 ghz. is it drastic. is the processor that big of a jump from the other? i mean i know its more powerful and more energy efficient, but how BIG is the difference?

does vista64 have problems with older versions of photoshop and maya? because i dont have access to later versions.

how big of a difference in performance will all of the new ram get me with zbrush? i can subdevide to about 6 mil polys now.

how much faster will i be able to render in mental ray? about how many polys would be easy to render? how much easier?

will the lack of sli even matter? will 2 graphics cards working together be more powerful than one bigger graphics card. twice as big as the 2 sli’s combined.

if anyone knows anything about the difference between thes specs and the rest of my questions i would really appreciate your input. and id be extremely gratefull.

thanks alot everyone
-mjolnir

#2

zbrush dosnt support any gpu, so dont bother with it. There wont be much diffrence betwen 2,2 and 3,0. I overclocked my quad from 2,4 to 3,0 … no diffrence in zbrush, but about 30% faster preformance in other aps.

#3

thanks slocik… so zbrush wont perform any faster or slower based on cpu or gpu speed. and i know that more ram will give me more division levels. which i cant wait to see and play with. so i guess its a good upgrade regardless.

i know that the gforce is built for hard core gamers. and i figured maybe the real time render would improve… as long as it doesnt slow down or look different without the quadro gpu. im more unsure of why exactly quadro’s are “the 3d” cpu of choice. like, why do people spend thousands of dollars on these particular graphix cards? i dont need maya to look pretty until the final render. but i also dont want it to look terrible.

what gpu do you use? do you use the high end expensive cards… or does it really matter once you get upward of a gig.

#4

[font=Garamond]i just found this in a doc. about geforce vs quadro…

In Figure 1, a series of close-up screenshots show line antialiasing turned on and off

for major CAD applications.

To address this feature in professional workstation applications, the NVIDIA

Quadro GPU family supports antialiased lines in hardware. The result? When

antialiased points and lines are used on the NVIDIA Quadro family of GPUs,

performance is noticeably higher than on the GeForce family of GPUs.

The performance advantage of the NVIDIA Quadro GPUs is clear—improved

performance when using applications that take advantage of antialiased points and

lines. This lets professionals work with improved visual quality and not sacrifice

performance and interactivity. For a CAD designer working in wireframe—which is

a significant amount of a user workflow—high-quality lines make the difference

between a successful design and an exercise in frustration.

The increase in productivity afforded by the quality and performance of antialiased

lines is a clear advantage of NVIDIA Quadro workstation GPUs.

… so basically the only difference wetween the two kinds of graphix cards is real time anti aliasing. the wireframes will look less jagged. if thats the only difference, then i dont need to spend the extra money.

-slocik, when you say that zbrush doesnt support gpu’s… does that mean that anti aliasing on the model wont change regardless of my graphix card?

another thing ive read today… some people claim to be able to get up to 33 million polys with 8 gigs of ram… is that true?

and i just read about windows 7… i read that win 7 will alow more ram to be used towards zbrush subdividing than vista 64 will. more than 4 gigs. does anyone know about this. or is it a myth? bevcaue i thought that 4 gigs is as high as zbrush goes at the moment.

#5

Mjolnir - cool nick (is that from DotA?)

afaik ZBrush can and will only use up to 2GB ram for the application itself.

therefore it is recommended to have like 4GB’s total - any more imo will be wasted.

i’m waiting for ZB to go 64-bit which will enable us to use much much more ram - but we’ll have to wait and see…

#6

I would recommend that you go to an i7 chip to be able to use the necessary horse power for the other apps that you have. Yes they do perform better with the extra horse power. from my personal view only.

Memory go the max you can the other apps once again will be able to use it if needed.

SLI mode is nice but not a requirement. I will be getting mine real soon. I like the fact that I can play games and other apps a little better with the SLI mode.

With the VID cards the 275 or 285 are performing quite well. The lower numbered VID cards will perform okay. I like the specs of the 2G VID cards. Have not had the chance to check them out in person. Heard they make a difference in the other apps such as photoshop and etc.

Mostly the refresh rate of the monitor is what makes the biggest difference for me. Try anything below the standard 5ns ones and you will see a real difference.
If you are going for the cheap. Go with the i7 Chip, 4 G memory, 1 T hard drive, 275 VID card (if you can)

Most important is the initial setup of the computer. Check out DBAN to format your hard drive initially. Wipe three times. Makes a real difference in the performance of the hard drive and it will last a little longer. No bull.
Have the necessary SATA drivers and install the OS. Resolve ALL driver issues first, update, defrag, error check then install the apps. Would not believe the headaches I got from users not following these simples steps. I could go on for days about this one.

VISTA 64 has no issues with older software versions so long as you locate them in the (86) folder. At least for me.

I do not know about Windows 7 yet.

My total build price for my rig was $1200 USD. This includes shipment.

I have
VISTA 64
12 g Memory
2 hard drives
260 VID card
Etc, etc.

FYI only: I have built/reformatted over 3,000 computers of so many different makes and models.
If you need some help please drop me a personal note and I will be more than willing to help.

#7

Dont go quattro.
I got myself a quattro 1700 along with my i7 rig and i really regret it.
Way to expensive and no real advantages.

#8

Geforce Vs. Quadro - True, most of the difference in the two will be in the Quadro having much better real-time aa in the wireframe. Yeah, I agree, not really worth the price difference, for your average 3D user.

I use a GeForce 260 GTX and other than amazing for gaming it has been a frakking godsend for my Photoshop cs4. My PS is better and faster because of my GeForce. (because it can use its gpu cores)

As far as Ram goes, it is always better to have more, period. True, ZBrush will use just 2Gb of it, but you could also have your Maya going and perhaps even Photoshop. So, the more RAM you have the more programs you can run along with ZBrush, smoothly.

*Decimation Master for ZBrush is another good example - it uses available ram outside of the 2gb that ZBrush is using. It also takes advatage of multiple cores to process meshes faster, so it’s good you have a dual core coming.

Faster cpu WILL result in a faster ride all around. It’s hard to accurately guage since you are going from amd to intel, but it WILL be faster. I would very roughly guess your listed upgrade could speed up your overall experience by 33%-50%.

#9

keeper - naw. the nickname is just the root or translation of my actual name. but thanks! : )… so the app itself uses 2 gbs… and then the subdiv and tool numbers (how many div levels ant the amount of tools displayed) use the other 2 gbs? and thats as far as it goes? in which case im covered? like, ill be able to reach the same poly amounts as anyone else can? i dont know for sure, but ive read of a few people reaching 33 mil. they could have been talking about hd geo. but i dont think they were. because zbrush talks about billions of polys for that. thanks for responding, man. i feel reassured.

burch- so, will 240 geforce perform “ok”. i guess it has to be a step or two faster than my other cards at half a gig more mem. i guess i dont need it to blow me away. if it gets me another subdiv level or two without lagging then i am more than happy. im finishing my reel and my current computer does the trick (except that the mobo is on its way out), but i have to put up with some annoying lag once i hit 3-5 mil polys. and i have to cut models in places that are hard to hide the seems without it looking obvious. like adding a belt or a collar. Hey! Thanks alot for the info. really thorough explaination

disco- thats what i was thinking. they really scare you with the price, dont they? you think it costs thousands so it MUST be what you HAVE to have. i mean, even if i used CAD i dont think it would be worth it. as long as the final render is what you want. thats all the really counts. and i dont mean to sound like a novice, i can use the apps but ive never been the most knowledgable about building computers. i learn as i go. but… what is i7? its intel quadcore, right? ive read alot about zbrush 3.5 and it looks amazing, but do you know if its going to be 64? or have they said that v.4 was going to be 64. i know that zb3.5 is supposed to have greater detail levels. is that within the same amount of ram that they are already utilizing? they do amazing things. i know that v.3 was a huuuuuge jump from v.2… so i dont know, im sure it will do the trick regardless. thanks alot disco.

agent- and thanks alot, agent… that makes me feel better. 30- 50% is definately going to work for me.

i think ive made up my mind to go ahead with it. unless anyone has anything to say about the new win 7… but i think it wouldnt make much dif anyways.

or if anyone has any thoughts on the 33 mil poly count… i mean, i dont need those kinds of numbers… but i would use them if i could get them.

thank you guys for helping me out. you really made sense of alot of things. and youll be seeing my work soon on zbrush central.

#10

The GPU is irrelevent to ZBrush as it does not use it. Unless you use other software that needs it. You want the fastest processor you can afford and the most cores you can manage. I’m working with 16 million poly’s without issue on an i7 factory overclocked. Those 8 virtual cores made a huge difference over my old Core Duo.

I’d bet ZBrush 4 will support 64 bit so you may want to consider the future and allow to add more RAM later on. For all we know now the 3.5 release may advantage more RAM? I’m running 12 Gigs of DDR 3 in three channel mode and it has made monsters like Vue Infinite 7.5 run like a dream. No more OOM issues.

Have fun with your new toy :+1:small_orange_diamond:+1:

#11

“8GB ddr2 sd ram (4X2GB)”
I would consider ddr3 ram over ddr2 (and the i7 is looking good but ADM is to release a faster one - who knows)

#12

so… i want to know this… do you guys think, with my current new specs, that i will get meshes higher than 16 mil? with the intel 2 quad core and the 8 gigs. or kind of levels do you think ill be able to get? what kind of numbers?

ps… this new computer is just to get my demo finished… get the detail i need, and get the job… which i dont even know what happens after i start throwing out my reel to employers… but i just know i need 2 more div levels… maybe just one more, if it doesnt lag on me. then ill be golden. im just finishing my 6 base meshes of my 6 concepts… theyre already pretty sharp looking before zbrush… but i have scales to do. well, i have alot i want to do… i want details like, maddam’s new gremlin up on top row… or cajun hiltons croc on front page. i can make it work otherwise… ill just break the meshes up into subtools. well, ill do what i have to. but i dont think i can spend anymore than what i got.

i wanted to know something though… an intel 2 qaud core only has 4 virtual cores, right? or is the “2” signifigant… because this is the second time ive heard someone say “8” in a discussion about these guys. and i also heard that at render time, each core of a cpu needs a gig of ram to itsself for rendering. is that true?

either way, thanks again guys for all of the input.

#13

The i7 has four true cores and 8 virtual as it has multi-threading. I think the i7 would be better but a quad should be just fine. It depends on your budget. An i7 with 12 gigs DDR3 and a decent GPU ended up hitting my wallet for around $1,200.

On my old Core Duo I could work well with around 8 million polys but could push it further.

16 million polys is what I can go to with no lag. I can go further but using sub-tools why would it be needed? 16 million or even 8 million per subtool is plenty. 3.5 is supposed to handle more but I’m still waiting for my email.

Unless 3.5 is 64 bit it won’t recognize over the 4 gigs of RAM but it helps to have more for the OS so it can fully advantage the RAM.

The number of processors and their speed is the key as near as I can tell. You should search for posts by Aurick on this subject. Ask in the questions and troubleshooting forum or search there because I know he has answered this before.

In the end your budget is your guide. If I could afford it I’d get a liquid cooled rig from Boxx.

#14

a fast core i 7 or the amd phenom 2 940 black edition 3.0 ghz u can easily overclock it to 3,4ghz. at least i did it with the gigabyte ma 770 ud 3 mainboard. very nice machine i got :smiley: