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morph -problem

ZBrush Usage Questions
#1

Hello

I hope someone can help me.

I did a head-basemodel in 3dsmax and created some morphs. Because I dont wanted to model the mid-detail stuff like the creases above his eyes I decided to do that in zbrush and then bind the displacementmaps to my morphs.

My problem is… I bring my ,say smiletarget to zbrush, store it as morphtarget then load my basemesh which has exactly the same polycount.

Everthings seems to be fine, but now, when I try to switch between these targets the smile-mesh gets totally screwed up.

I dont have any idea why this happens :cry:

#2

If the mesh distorts when you activate the morph, it is because the two models do not share the same point/poly order. You need to make sure that they do before you export the morphs from your other application, or make sure that your other app is not reordering them during the export.

#3

I was interested to read you reply regarding the activation of morphs.

I have a slightly more subtle problem. Using ZBrush it is very easy to get predictable morph targets into Poser. But with a recent model the morphs have been creating side effects.

e.g. a morph just targeted at the nose on a face (making it beak like) had a similar effect on chin. Very strange.

Even more strange when I created a morph to raise the right eye brow, it had the effect of also closing the mouth into a pronounce “mmmm” sounding shape, if you know what I mean.

I realise that this is a dated topic, but any help would be appreciated.

#4

hi,

I am only learning about the animating end of things so if you are not interested in answering I understand. However I have some questions for you.

when you talk about the morphing problems is that in Poser? if so what version.

if so when you did your morphs in zbrush…what size brush were you using and did you have double sideded turned on? Are you using displacements for the morphs or just letting poser figure it out? or both. When you did your edits in zbrush did you “walk” around your model to make sure all was well with the whole rather than just the part you where concentrating on…ie the head or whatever? etc etc hahahaha…sorry I am more curious than ambitious.

any help would be great but if not…i’ll finger it out eventually!!:smiley:

#5

Thanks for the reply. Isn’t this a brilliant site, you’ve made me really think. I’m going to look remarkably stupid answering some of your questions. But not to worry.

1 Yes I’m using Poser5. Exporting one group at a time. Importing the body group (head) into ZBrush and using Move or Add to change the shape of the group. Then exporting and using this obj file as a morph target under the Object menu in Poser.

2 I don’t know what size brush I used, I change the draw size, Z instensity and focal shift all the time depending which part of the group I am working on and what I’m trying to achieve. I obviously don’t change the number of polygons.

3 Did I have double sided turned on?. Forgive my ignorance, are you referring to activating X symmetry in the Transform menu? Yes I would have X symmetry turn on for some of the time. But not Y or Z.

4 I am not using any form of displacement. I’ve only been using ZBrush since April 04, and there is only so much time to learn along with a full time job and a family. I’ve got displacements booked in for November.

5 I didn’t do a walk through of the model, because, I’m entirely self taught and I’m not sure what this means. I would only do one morph per obj file, e.g. make a snub nose, or an ear twitch. This way I would generate quite a number of obj files, one for each morph.

6 Terms of learning from others, I’ve found morphing far easier than modelling and rigging, which I’m now beginning to make some progress with.

7 I would love to know what Aurick means in his response when he says: the models do not share the same poly/point order. What does it mean and what can I do about it if it applies to my more subtle problem?

Any way nice talking to you. I hope some of this helps.

#6

The way that an OBJ file is written is essentially as a list of points. In simplest possible terms, it says: “Point 1 is located at coordinates ABC. Point 2 is located at coordinates DEF.” etc.

All that a morph target does is tell your animation package to move point 1 from ABC to UVW and point 2 from DEF to XYZ.

The problem is that if the point get reordered (which some packages do unless specifically told not to), then the new version of the object can have point 1 at DEF and point 2 at ABC. Now when you use the morph target, point 1 gets moved to XYZ and point 2 gets moved to UVW – not at all what you’d wanted. The mesh just explodes.

However, that is most likely not what’s happening in your case. Instead, it’s likely that while creating your morph targets you are accidentally moving some points that you hadn’t wanted to move. Another possibility with Poser is what is referred to as “cross-talk”, where one morph target accidentally affects other objects. Unfortunately, I am not familiar enough with Poser to be able to assist you more.

#7

Hi john,

what I mean by double sided is…in the tools menu>display…there is a double button. this allows you to see both sides of a face which comes in very handy when you are using the hide function.

Hide the parts you want to hide, click double, then rotate your model to make darn sure you actually hid every thing you needed to. sometimes because of the angles you hide at…a slight tilt of the head will do it…it’s possible a stray polygon got missed…like perhaps one in the chin that you might have missed especially if you have the model zoomed in close. I usually zoom my model out and rotate with double on to be extra sure that I am only working on what I want to work on!:wink:

Hahaha you cracked me up with your displacements in november schedule. I felt the same way…I don’t have kids but work too damn much so I understand the time thing…but I am one of those that dive in, damn the consequences, learn from my mistakes, then read the directions! ahhaha has caused me a time or too of aggravation and a life threatening situation or two but mostly I just learn alot…so it was fun to read that you could plan that…kidding or not…I envy your ability to do that.

I haven’t had any problems with bringing in a poser model…doing my thing then bring it back into poser thru zbrush so I don’t think reordering of verts is the problem…my first guess would be my answer above. Unless you are using some unconventional export commands from poser…but since you said you were successful before…my guess is I am right in ASSuming that’s what happened…so in the future…do the double sided thing and rotate to be 100% sure.

#8

Aurick thanks for the explanation. Very clear and lucid. You’re a natural born communicator. You should be writing books.:smiley: You probably are?

You may be interested to note that when I get gems like the one you have just provided I cut and paste them into a collection of relevant notes, that I can build up into a set of reference texts. I need to do this because the information sometimes can be so much and so rich that you can’t digest it in one sitting. I frequently like to refer back to a paper copy, usually reading and re-reading stuff. Some info I may not need immediately but its nice to be able to get my hands on materials when I need it. An example of this is my UV Mapping and Texture document which relates to a number of applications which now runs to 150 pages. At pressent I have 17 such spiral bound ‘books’ for reference.

This may sound very geeky, but as Dirty Harry would say a man has to know his limitations, :laughing: and I know that I’m a slow learner:roll_eyes:

Aminuts

Thanks for the tip on the double button. I’ve never tried that before, now I guess I’ll have it switch on all time.:smiley:

You mentioned animation earlier. Below is a workflow that I use. It needs refining and I vary it depending on the subject and length e.g. something that is less than a minute I would be less prescriptive, for something that is say five minutes long I definitely need a lot of planning and organisation.

Here goes.
Animation – Critical Sequence (3d modeller, video editor, audio)

Pre-production

Script – resource, revise, edit, adapt

Characters, Props ands Scenes – Conceive, Design, Build

Production

Setup

1 Establish file structure – folders for: characters, props, backdrops, animation/movement, dialogue/sound effects/backing music, avi footage.

2 Devise file naming and numbering convention.

3 Using video editor create blank Shots/scenes, to plan overall length of video

4 Establish standard font & position for on screen information display (top & bottom)

5 Insert scene number reference to dialogue & script into frame display

Storyboard - Creating Stills

1 Insert dialogue text within frame display

2 Insert notes on direction and audio effects/sound track in frame display

3 Record and add basic audio dialogue to AVI footage in video editor

4 Insert basic characters into modelled scene – no movement

5 Render to AVI in outline (very low resolution)

6 Requirements: Basic character models, No colour, No props or backdrop

Layout

1 Position characters in relation to each other, position scenery and props

2 Set camera angle, frame and compose shots

3 Devise and model movement, where appropriate e.g. essential character gestures, and camera tracking

4 Characters rendered in flat mapping (low resolution)

5 Requirements, basic characters, props and backdrop, no colour, frame information

Motion

1 Finalise motion/animation (characters, props, cameras, lighting)

2 Lip sync to final audio dialogue

3 Composite detailed characters, props & scene

4 Colour based on procedural shaders

5 Render to video - smooth mapping – medium resolution

6 Add audio to video – final dialogue, sound effects

7 Remove dialogue text within frame display

8 Overview of composition checking for flow between shots

9 Requirements, No lighting, no UV mapping

Lighting, Audio, Textures and Final Render

1 Full texture UV mapping of characters

2 Use of shaders and mapping on props

3 Full audio edit – voices/dialogue, sound effects, backing music

4 Set lighting

5 Remove frame information

6 Final high resolution render

Hope this is of interest.

Attachments

Animation Production.txt (2.11 KB)

#9

Hi John,

I sympathize with your efforts and have been geeky compulsive myself, doing the same for years, maintaining collections of clippings and articles from publications. Then, with the vast torrent of information from the web, my cataloging and collecting really got out of hand.

Gradually, I had to abandon the 3-ring binder solution after running out of shelf space.

Instead, I’ve devised a digital solution that uses an inexpensive Windows application called Cute Site Builder (previous name Trellix) to create a vast private repository of captured information - mostly collected with my browser’s File/Save As menu option which dumps entire webpages with images onto my HardDrive.

I thought you might be interested, so… Here is a link to a previous post on the topic.

Sven

p.s. I already did a cut&paste adding your ANIMATION WorkFlow notes to my files. :smiley: