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Maya or Max?

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#1

Im looking to get into using an external renderer for models Ive sculpted in ZBrush. Ive been trying to use Maya for months now by reading tutorials, but Ill spend 5 minutes reading a tutorial and trying to use that method with my model, only to wind up getting frustrated and overwhelmed.

I was wondering, is 3D Studio Max any easier / user friendly. I know Maya is the more popular and more tutorialized application, but I feel idiot not being able to pick it up, seeing as how Im able to learn most other software with a lot less trouble.

Any suggestions?

#2

I’m not so sure that Maya is the most popular… Both of them use Mental Ray, so if you only want to render, I think that’s no much diference. Personally, I always use Max, but I have necer tried Maya.

#3

I’d be surprised if you found Max a lot easier to use. And, I’m assuming you’re talking about pirating Max, because not that many people can afford it (unless you’re buying an old copy, which I wouldn’t recommend).

You could start simple with something like Carrara 5 (it’s not incapable- just easy to pick up), or even do a few renders in Blender, which is getting easier with every release. I’m a big fan of XSI myself, over Maya or Max, but the learning curve is quite high. Lastly, there’s Modo, and some people even like rendering in Vue.

#4

Rawr!!! Go modo!!! I use it (or Maxwell) for rendering stills inorganic objects, and Brazil with 3ds Max for otherwise.

#5

Ive actually tried most of the programs mentioned, XSI, Max, Maya, Vue… Out of all of them, VUE is by far the easiest to use, but I dont really like the level of realism that it gives to characters… they still look Poserish, which is something Im trying to get away from. As for landscapes and such, it is hands down the best program Ive seen for that kinda stuff.

Ive seen some stuff over at Modo’s website, and as -Nii- said, it seems to render inorganic things well, but I wasnt all that impressed with the character modeling images I saw.

Ive seen some renders from Carrara, and from what I saw, I was kind of impressed. It seems to be getting popular in the Poser community since DAZ acquired the program. Even though people are rendering DAZ’s figures in it, they seem to be turning out nice, which makes me think that stuff that I make could render just as well. My only question is, how well does it handle all the maps created in ZBrush?

#6

As far as I know it does a decent enough job…

One thing about Modo- if you can’t create a render in it of a person that matches the kind of thing you’d find from a Mental Ray render (etc), then you’re not using it properly. Modo is fully capable of rendering organic models… so don’t be mislead by some of the very average renders on the website. Most of the renders I’ve seen on the Modo forums I could do in an old version of Truespace! I can’t speak for Vue, not having used a recent version. All the renders I’ve seen out of it don’t look too great, but then Vue is a haven for rendering amateurs, so that doesn’t surprise me.

#7

Aww… I thought many renders in the modo forum were good! :slight_smile:

#8

Let me just say that what Im looking for is a program that offers the rendering capabilities of programs that feature Mental Ray, but without the long list of confusing Mental Ray settings. Something a little more user friendly…
Something that also features more of a 3D workspace, which ZBrush unfortunately doesnt have. With that being said, is Modo easier to use than Maya, Max, etc. and would it suit my needs?

#9

Aww… I thought many renders in the modo forum were good!

Heh, well maybe they’ve improved since I was there :slight_smile: Many of the non-organic ones were simply amazing, so…

With that being said, is Modo easier to use than Maya, Max, etc. and would it suit my needs?

You should download the trials and have a play. Honestly, I think you need to learn about rendering more though. Using Mental Ray is as user friendly as it’s ever going to get (unless you’re using Max- it just seems to make everything confusing) so the thing I’m getting from you isn’t that you need a user friendly program, but instead, one that hides a lot of what will allow you to produce a ‘non Poser like rendering’ and ease you into things. Sorry if that sounds insulting, but… I’ll try and quantify that.

One of the things that makes Mental Ray so strong is that the details are there for an artist to take control of. If that’s something which is beyond you at the moment, then matching Mental Ray in another program isn’t going to be an easy task. Modo’s renderer is simple, powerful and fast, but it’s still a renderer, and there are complex elements to it. Carrara is about as easy as you can get, but it’s simplisity comes at a price- that is, while it can do some things (and it’s fun), it’s not always fast, you don’t have full control over what you might need in the not too distant future. A bit like Vue.

Everything has a tradeoff. If you want easy, you loose control. Have maximum control, and things take time to set up, and they’re complex by nature (because 3D is good ol’ maths, at it’s most basic). So, what I’m trying to say to you here is, try each and every program. The feel of a program is either going to make you want to learn more, or it’s going to make you run and hide. I can speak to you all day long about the advantages one has over the other, but at the end of the day it’s a personal choice.

I think Carrara is well suited to what you want to do, and it’s cheap. Max and Maya are both overkill (and if you’re not a pirate and are planning on buying Max, note that is costs far more than anything else). But, you might use Modo and fall for it, big pricetag or not. Give both it and Carrara a try, and read the Modo manual when you download the trial. It has some great teaching on rendering which will hopefully make things like Mental Ray seem more user friendly to you :wink:

#10

I’ve read MAX 9 (it will be available next month) improves a lot the use of Mental Ray, it will be easier than version 8. What about VRAY? I prefer Mental Ray, but there are lots of tutorials and samples about VRAY, although you have to buy it separately from MAX.

#11

I agree with what you said. I do need to learn more about rendering in general. I started the whole digital art thing with Bryce years ago, which is as easy as rendering gets. Select an object, apply a material from a big list, click render. It doesnt get much more user friendly than that, but then again, you have little control over what you’re doing, aside from being able to adjust a few sliders in the materials menu. After that I moved onto Poser which is a small step up since it gives you a material menu similar to that of Maya, Max, etc. with the ability to plug in a texture here and edit values there. With a little playing around I was able to figure out most of it. The only issues I had with Poser are that it takes so long to get a good final render since you have to make tiny changes that can only be seen after sitting there forever waiting for its crappy render engine to do its thing.

So what it all boils down to in the end is that Im eventually going to be looking to use a high end application for the exact reasons you described, Reactor. My problem is that Im stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to learning it. Im a visual learner, and I get impatient sitting and reading long tutorials. If I see how something is done I can pick it up way faster. The downside to that is there arent too many places near me that I can just go to take a class and learn Maya. And those that there are are time consuming, intense, and $3,000+ for short class sessions. My other alternative, which Im highly considering, is just dropping a grand over at digital tutors on their Maya training DVD’s. The downside to that is I dont know what Im getting or if Im going to pick up the information that Im looking for.

Its just so discouraging, knowing that Ive got some skill and all these creative ideas, Ive got ambition, Ive got the tools to do it, but I just dont have the knowledge of how to use the software. I mean, I used to be the guy all my friends would come to with modeling/rendering questions for the last few years in college. Around here, I feel like Im in their position, which just sucks.

#12

And what is VRAY? Ive heard of it, and Ive seen incredable images created by people that used it, but I dont know what it is. Im assuming its another rendering engine similar to Mental Ray?

#13

Yes, it’s another rendering engine for MAX.

#14

The difference with Vue Infinite is not having sss or displacement. Version six is due out shortly and it will have those features. Six will put it in the same category and the interface is much better than the others. Infinite already has incredible control in com-positing and complete control over individual objects and how they are rendered in a scene. I do not think it is unintentional that the others are so difficult. In addition to the ridiculous prices it guarantees the aftermarket for plug-ins that cost as much as Infinite. It also forces you to pay for classroom training. Even when cheaper software matches the capabilities with far superior interfaces the users look down their noses at the cheaper equally capable software because they are locked in. Times are changing and the hobbyist (who are just as talented) market is huge compared to the professional market which is small and always will be. Many of the most talented artists on earth don’t have access to expensive software to the detriment of the future of art. Truly great artists are often not recognized because they don’t have family connections or the wealth to get themselves noticed. The single most talented person I’ve ever seen is working selling cash registers in Pocatello Idaho. He can not handle academics and the world is a sadder place because of this. The things he does (with no training whatsoever) on boxes and scratch paper while he is working, brings tears to my eyes. He is the real deal but will die and unknown. If he had access to CG software in a user friendly format he would shame many if not most professionals. Soon you will be seeing the best work come from that market as the interfaces become as they should have been all along. It’s all about the money and snobbery. I think it is obvious that they could have made the high end software easy to use long ago. Follow the money and you will understand the unnecessary high learning curves. It takes thousands in plug-ins to make them usable. That is no accident I assure you. A hundred years from now they will laugh at paintings of soup cans and the people who bought them. The masterpieces will come from people who we never heard of.

Go ahead and flame me, but you know I’m right. Art has been bastardized by money.

I should mention that is the reason I like ZBrush as its a step in the right direction. :+1: Thank God pencils and paper are still cheap so the best can express themselves while they wash dishes and dig ditches.

#15

Out of all of them, VUE is by far the easiest to use, but I dont really like the level of realism that it gives to characters… they still look Poserish, which is something Im trying to get away from. As for landscapes and such, it is hands down the best program Ive seen for that kinda stuff.
A few things to add to what Blaine has written.
Keeping in mind that I have Maya6, Carrara 5 and Vue 5 Infinite.
Vue 5 renders are the best, I believe of the group. Little adjusting needed.
Would suggest you try rendering and adjusting the Hdri lighting setup ( in the atmosphere editor), this will eliminate the Poserish quality.
Also as mentioned Vue 6 will have the ability to import displacement maps, which will enable it to work more closely with one of Zbrush’s strenghts.
Saw a demo of Vue 6 at Siggraph, great program.

Vue 5 Infiniite, using the hdri settings, is the only program I know
that makes Poser people look like people.
Carrara 5, with hdri settings, comes close.

I can only speak of that of which I have seen and from an amateur
perspective.

Luck.

#16

Id have to agree with you Blaine. Vue is one of those programs out there that is unique in that it does give you a lot of control over what you’re rendering. I havent used it much since I discovered how awesome ZBrush is, but the thing I liked about Vue was how easy it was to pick up. I started out with Bryce, which I think helped, since the interface is similar. The obvious difference being that Vue is like a jacked up version of Bryce on steroids. But like I mentioned before, its strength is definately in rendering an overall scene, rather than characters, as they still turn out looking Poserish. Since it can now handle SSS & displacement maps, it might be something that I’ll have to look into. As you mentioned about prices, thats certainly a factor when you look at Vue. The gap is starting to close between it and “higher end” applications in terms of features and hobbiest artists can produce work of unbelieveable quality without thousands of dollars of training. I think you’re right that these cheaper programs are a step in the right direction, cause when you think about it, if a $600 program can do the same thing as a $6,000 one, who do you think is going to sell more copies of their software?

#17

experiment with g2 male in Vue.
hdri lighting. Render time 13 minutes
Quality suffers in uploads.

Untitledkevin.jpg

#18

Nice render Bicc:+1:

XxDarkMessiahxX,
Infinite 6 will probably be out around the end of the year and it will have the sss and displacement functionality added. I would not buy until then. 6 is a core rewrite and 5 had problems. On my home PC I can handle 2.5 million poly models (tri’s only it won’t handle those numbers of quads for some reason) in 5 and have gone to nearly 800 million polys with the ecosystem. It is processor intensive and memory intensive and bleeds every available drop out of your system. It has a compatability setting so that it can be used on older GPU’s if need be. They have a history of buggy first releases so a stable version may be further down the road. I’m hoping this version is different and crossing my fingers. You can also get XStream for most programs you may use and it acts like a plug-in. There is also a huge diferrence between Infinite and the other Vue products. Only Infinite has the compositing features and individual control over the rendering of each object. You can deal with post work without leaving the program or render any style of pass you can think of for post work.The material editor will look a little odd but it is very powerfull and simple to use. I very rarely have to resort to the help file to figure anything out.

#19

Blaine, whats are the specs on your home system to be able to handle that polygon count in Vue? I have a rather high end system (P4 3.2 ghz, 2.5 gigs of ram, gforce 6800gt, etc) and dont have any real slowdown problems in ZBrush until I hit the 3 / 3.5 million poly count. Im just curious how my system would compare to yours in regards to Vue.

Oh, and Ill have to correct myself for what I said before about Vue always rendering figures in a Poserish way. I looked around over at Renderosity and found some nice stuff of Poser figures rendered in Vue, and was actually impressed.

This guy, fabriced, does some nice work…
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?user_id=354848

#20

I’m on a Pentium 4 3.6 ghz W/HT with 2 gig DDRam, NVidia GeForce 6600 w/ 512 DDRam. Liquid cooled so no overheating problems.

I just tested and I can go over 1 billion polys in the ecosystem but it’s dicey. Infinite seems to do best with 3ds files overall. I expect and they advertise that 6 will handle much more. I’ll test this thing later today and see how far it will go and let you know.

In ZBrush I get slowdown at about 2.5 million poly but you have a better graphics card which must matter. I can go over 3 but things get real slow. In Infinite if I go over 1.5 million it slows and I have to make some serious tweaks in the options but I have gone to 2.5. 6 will be a whole new ballgame I think.
http://www.e-onsoftware.com/products/vue/vue_6/