ZBrushCentral

Hard surface tools, purly conceptual?

ZBrush Usage Questions
#1

I understand that concept art is part of the production process, but what I realy would like to know is how do you go about producing the finnal production model, are these Hard surface features purly conceptual tools, as I see no way to retopologize somthing so complex? I asume you model it just as you would in your choosen 3D app, can somone please fill the gap on this please as its not too clear for me.

When I produce somthing hard surface I always model in the more traditional way as it has to be low poly. I can only asume that things produced with Dynamesh, hard surface tools are a reference model only.

Thanks.

#2

Definitely not so. Dynamesh frees the creative process. Then it can be retopologised using one of the many methods inside ZB, or any of a raft of other programmes - Topogun for example.

#3

Hi there, thanks for your reply. This is what I don’t understand, its not possible to retopo perfectly straight edges, perfect circles, non organic shapes, more so when it becomes very technical accurate geometry. When modeling a technical piece we rely on tight edges, loops that follow the contour perfectly because its that loop, or line that creates the creases and edges. With retopology in Zbrush iv not seen this done because its the projection that creates the edges and detail, not the topology.

In my minds eye im thinking two hard surface objects side by side, one made in Zbrush then retopologized, and one box modeling, I cant visualize a low poly perfectly clean topo on the Zbrush one.

It would be great if I could retopologize a hard surface object made within Zbrush as from what iv seen is stunning. I’m kinda oldschool when it comes to modeling, poly by poly, box modeling, and retopology not too often, but when I do its organics I do it on.

#4

Hi there, thanks for your reply. This is what I don’t understand, its not possible to retopo perfectly straight edges, perfect circles, non organic shapes, more so when it becomes very technical accurate geometry. When modeling a technical piece we rely on tight edges, loops that follow the contour perfectly because its that loop, or line that creates the creases and edges. With retopology in Zbrush iv not seen this done because its the projection that creates the edges and detail, not the topology.

What are your goals, per say? I don’t know how good zbrush and retopology would be if you were printing and needed mechanically precise measurements and edges for some kind of working prototype, but when it comes to something like a game asset or render then retopology can get the job done. The goal often is not to build a new cage that would subdivide normally and look the same all on its own, but rather something that works in conjunction with baked maps that will help recreate the look of the sculpt.

#5

I think it’s just a matter of what you are most comfortable in. Personally, when it comes to hard surface stuff, I find I can do a lot of things faster and more accurately in my modelling app (Hexagon 2.2) than I can in ZBrush. In most cases, I will do the base mesh in Hexagon and export that to ZBrush for the detail. I still enjoy box modelling in Hexagon because it has an excellent set of tools and is extremely easy to use once you learn the app.

#6

Not saying ZBrush can do toplogising well but other program can. Take a look at this post, and look at how he has dome the collectives. He modelled it in ZB the topologies it to us that topology in mood. http://www.foundation3d.com/forums/showpost.php?p=230179&postcount=93

#7

Hi. As you can see in that thred you gave, he used retopo for a organic object. Look at the siggraph video 3#, this cant be used as a production model, so how would he retopo somthing like he did, im trying to see how I could use these hard surface tools for finnal production models. When the model in question has true angles, perfect curves, little to no organic forms, I cant see how a new retopo be made for it. In the demo im refering to the artist is making the object bassed off a photo refference of a radio so this is not a concept model, what would he use it for?

Thanks everyone.

#8

Games, movies, illustrations and mockups, 3d printing…

#9

One thing I see people try to do is use one tool for everything. There is no tool that is best for everything. Zbrush is an organic modeller. Yes it has some mechanical tools available but they’re weak compared to other mechanical modellers. The trick is to decide what to use and when and how it implements seamlessly into your pipeline.

If you’re doing mechanical models your money is better spent on something different than Zbrush. There might be better concept modellers than Zbrush as well (it’s not something I’ve looked into). The overlap of mechanical tools in an organic modeller (Zbrush) is a good thing as it can save time by keeping models in one tool with less transfer time and issues between software. That doesn’t mean it should be used for everything mechanical. It’s like using a screwdriver to do a hammer’s job or vice versa.

There’s a big difference between using a model for rendering and using it for actual production part in a 3d print or fabricated piece. I use Zbrush when it’s the best tool for the job and I use other software like Blender or Geomagic when they’re the best tool for the job. For mechanical I think it’s currently better to start off with a box modeller and then taking it into Zbrush for additional work that’s better done there. With GoZ it makes the transfer practically seamless, at least for my applications.

#10

Games, not that poly count, there is hundreds of thousands of polys in the the small parts, let alone the biger parts. Movies, again apart from conceptual work cant see it used for anything more. Illiustrations, yep can see its use here, and of course 3d printing.

@ MentalFrog, basicly thats what I was thinking, just as iv been doing I just wanted to understand more about these tools in zbrush and get what they where intended for, just in case im missing out of somthing. To sum it up these wonderfull high detailed hard surface sculpts iv been seeing are for quickly producing concept art work without the need to model accuratly for finnaly production work, in these cases you can get away with a few million polys, I can see the usage in that. I can also see in some cases like body armor, and certain other accessories retopology could be used, maybe even used as a starting point before continuing to model the finnal.

Thanks for the extra insite guys.

#11

Lol, obviously not at that polycount. It’s very rare that you sculpt anything in zbrush and pipe it straight to a game, yet zbrush is used very heavily in the games industry. This is where retopology and normal maps come into play. That radio can very readily be made to be fit for games, or just about anything that requires a standard 3d model.

#12

What is it you mean by ‘production model’?

#13

The final finished model that’s used in the actual production weather it be games, film, or what ever it was made to be suited for. A concept high res model can be part of the production, so can the many aspects of the process, im reffering to the end result. This would normaly be the model with the correct polycoumt, correct topology for animation.

I could imagine at some point there being the ability to produce a low res cage based on key edges of a high res model, untill then it only makes sence to use hard surface within Zbrush for producing normal maps on low res meshes for game accessories. As I said before maybe some body armor, and more simple geometry retopology could be used.

#14

I may be tally wrong but I would think there are lots of high end production models that start with a blob sculpted in ZB. Which then turns into a hi Rez model, which then gets retopologised in something like Topogun in is used in the final production.

#15

All. The. Time.

#16

You would be right, as iv done it, for organic models. I would however like to see it done for hard surface models.

#17

It’s the same process.

#18

This then releates to my first question, how can one create retopology for perfectly streight edges, on the edge, true circle, semi circles, intricate geometry with a some what free non guided organic style retopo tool set? I havent used Topogun, maybe it has the ability to do this?

#19

By drawing over top of the model. The new topology snaps to the old surface, so circles will be just as round and planar surfaces just as planar.

#20

Hi, maybe you miss understood me, I understand it snaps to the surface but in a organic way, not a linear way by which it snaps to “the” edge thats responsible for creating the crease. Im talking about creating a new cage from retopology, that basic frame which can be taken to another app if needed, and continue to build this low poly geometry not needing any maps to produce its shape. When I build hard surface objects in my modeler I build it from true angles, box modeling, if I take this into Zbrush for adding details then its fine for adding some surface details with the likes of normal maps.

Where I cant see it work is when your not building your base mesh in a external modeler, but within Zbrush, im talking about Hard surface here with true angles. The multi milliion dence mesh will look great, but that new cage wont unless there is some kind of special edge snapping I dont know about.

Thanks.