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#1

well im currently a student, and im one of the only ones who us Zbrush in my class. Ive tried to get people into it, by demoing it for them and posting some of the Zbrush videos, like “the next step” video, and the zbrush demo real on the program forum. unfortunatly it seems everyones anit zbrush or something. They use MAX as the only tool. I even got a reply like

" No matter how good zbrush is you still have to model the parts in the right area and not have shoulders and abs odd sizes.

I look at Zbrush like I look at Vray its so simple to do stuff people get lazy.

Zbrushes terrible interface reminds me of a bad game, and impedes the artist more then it helps him."

I really dont know what else to do. I even showed some of great works from this site. Any suggestions on how i can get through people? Maybe i shouldnt be taking it uppon myself to do this. What u think?

#2

No man affluent in blender complains of its interface, as there is no man affluent in Zbrush complains of its interface. Most people who already used 3DS max has fought it’s clunky interface to get used to it and not complain. (Maya’s is superior to max, IMHO)

The best way to convert people to zbrush’s ease of use, is not by showing them ultra-super-out-of-this-world-you-can’t-get-this-with-3DS images because everyone has some sort of inferiority complex and a high ego when they are introduced to new things.

Non Apple users would cringe that their Mac would not run windows because they’re used to windows even though apple is much easier to use and less prone to crashing.

Why make it hard on yourself to learn all the shader stuff when you can have presets ready made for you in VRay or Maxwell where you can render everything to a high quality in less time to set it up so that you can move on to your next project? Able to use something difficult to use is not something to be proud of. Able to create something that you’d be proud of and people would love to see, that is something to be proud of. And it’s less disappointing to easily create something that didn’t turn up too good then creating something with such difficulty which turns out badly. I’ve seen a LOT of renders showreel which touts ability to use strange SSS shader or rigs no one even heard about which only looks like somekind of phong or something that moves very clumsily.

ZB interface is actually very customizable. Its navigation is akin to the standard “maya” alt- navigation (adopted even by XSI) so many people would feel at home.

The best way to introduce ZB is to let them try it out. Let them see how easy (and FUN!) it is to sculpt in zBrush. Don’t tell them it is much easier to the software they are already using because it would “offend” them (because they have suffered many pains to learn said 3D package) and they would immediately decide to dismiss your ZB. People love to think they’re smart and ZB lets you do that. Even the viewport rendering looks awesome in 3.1 not to mention the best render. The matcap shader is outstanding and you can create realistic looking shader in no time. But the best part is that ZB is the closest thing there is to getting your hand dirty with clay. So, let them try out ZB and find out for themselves how easy and FUN it is to do things the ZWay.

PS> ZB is the only software that kept me anchored in windows. Without Z, my Vista would go bye-bye.

#3

The interface argument is tiresome, and usually the mark of someone who hasn’t spent more than a couple hours trying to learn the program. People who have spent a reasonable amount of time in Zbrush don’t go back to not using it. It’s just not done.

They are not wrong on their first two points, however. If one is working with an eye towards the industry, Zbrush does not replace the need for strong traditional modeling skills in a standard modeling/animation application, and it does tend to make people lazy, especially if they are just starting out. If you are learning your skillset with the intention of of a job in the CG industry, you should always view ZB as an augmentation to a traditional standard package and it’s native skills, and probably shouldnt even touch Zbrush until you have a strong foundation there. Learn how to model, before you learn how to Zbrush.

If one is only working with illustration in mind, there is no need to use anything other than ZB.

#4

Well said, guys. I’m one of those “backwards” users. I started with Zbrush and THEN started learning other packages. I almost wish I had done it the other way around, but… ah well. It definitely would have given me a better understanding of it when I started. That said, I am still hoping and wishing for animation to be something that Pixol adds to maybe… Zbrush4? :wink:

#5

It’s not a tiresome arguement to point out that many aspects of Zbrush’s (and Blender’s) interfaces are riddled with problems. They are, and could be improved massively. The control systems are messy, hard to remember and in many places completely inconsistent. Zbrush’s has been improved a lot (and congrats to Pix for that), but still has a long way to go. I could write a huge document outlining all of the quirks and issues that have arisen because of the poor design decisions made in regards to them… and anyone who thinks otherwise should open their eyes to what a good UI really is, and what kinds of bugs can arise from one developed with very little thought of the future. I don’t really expect artists to open their eyes though- in general those who’ve have gotten used to something wouldn’t know a better thing if it came and smacked them across the back of the head.

Students are, for the most part, thick as bricks. They’ll repeat whatever it is they’ve been told by someone else, or what they’ve read on a blog somewhere. Ignore them. Anyone who thinks Max has a good UI really does have rocks in their head, and should be avoided for 3D discussions until the day they learn to think for themselves… if that day ever comes. When people do learn to think for themselves they’ll actually sit down with Zbrush and realise that it’s (surprise surprise) a 2D painting program as well as a 3D program and have fun creating in it.

#6

Youre talking about being a regular user of the program, and through your experience, indentifying some issues you imagine could be improved more to your liking.

The OP was referring to students who supposedly couldnt get past the interface to even “use” the same program that many, many top industry talents use to great effect every day.

I trust you see the distinction. The former is true for any program to varying degrees… the latter is tiresome.

#7

Im just a little confused because there are some character artists who claim that zbrush is their main tool and had center position in their pipeline, but at the same time some people say that it makes you lazy and its only good for illustrations and not actual production. If you build a basemesh in max with proper edgloops and geometry and then throw it into zbrush and sculpt out some of the details is that not animatable?

#8

pedranz,

I believe the games and movie industries all specialize their labor, with departments for modeling, texturing, lighting, rendering, etc. Everyone probably uses a different pipeline workflow (some use ZBrush, others use Mudbox, someone else uses both), so anyone who gets too comfortable with one piece of software won't be as marketable as somebody with extensive knowledge of not only a wide range of programs, but techniques (modeling low resolution, sculpting, rigging, scripting, etc.)

I'm pretty sure larger companies like Pixar and ILM use some consumer level products, but, overall, rely on in-house, top secret crap that only they have access to.

So, as long as YOU are able to learn as much as possible about whatever industry you want to work in, you're probably better off NOT encouraging others to expand their toolset. The fewer people competing for the job you want, the better.

Maybe it's wiser to let the software companies market for themselves, unless you enjoy working for them for free.  :roll_eyes: 

The scarriest part about advocating the use of any software is that it all changes so rapidly, it's hard to trust it's going to be widely supported in the near future. Not too long ago, Autodesk gobbled up Mudbox, so, if they decide to integrate it with their 3D software, ZBrush might not look quite as appealing anymore. Or some other program may emerge and make everything else look prehistoric.

Again, as long as you enjoy using ZBrush, just stick with it on your own, and let the kids at your school fumble along in their comfort zone. At graduation, I suspect you'll have the better portfolio, and then the better paying job.  :+1:
#9

just dont try people to get into zbrush. only show them if they ask.
if you think its mega super cool just use it.

at my company i am the only one that uses zbrush for more than clumsy details.
i am the only one who das his human/creature head sculpting first out of a cube in zbrush defining form and volume and than retopo that with proper edgeloops.

they just want to go woth their max/maya all the way…i switched from max to silo for pure modeling and though it was awesome how much better and fluid silo does my basemeshes, no one was realy interrested :wink: they just go with max/maya without even trying silo or my zbrush workflow.

just do your thing and let otheres do their`s

#10

Youre talking about being a regular user of the program, and through your experience, indentifying some issues you imagine could be improved more to your liking.

That is incorrect. I wasn’t talking about what I ‘liked’.

The OP was referring to students who supposedly couldnt get past the interface to even “use” the same program that many, many top industry talents use to great effect every day.

Yes, I know… please re-read the post.

#11

I think digital art is still in a transition phase… not too long ago, you had to be a major techie to do 3d… and that still holds for many specialized tasks, but I think programs like ZBrush are encroaching on that territory… needless to say, the transition is a little painful for some… those in the field who are more technical than artistic are going to be hedged into the more technical specializations which probably arent as fun as things like character art

this is just opinion/observation on my part, but I think the people who complain about zbrush’s interface are the ones who like all their work layed out as numerically as possible and are comfortable with interfaces that resemble the circuits and wires inside their pc

personally, I’m happy with just a canvas, an object, and a brush… technical tricks are great, but make the science behind them as transparent as possible and keep the numbers off the interface until I ask for them… ZBrush is a perfect match for me, and it took me very little time to get comfortable with the interface

#12

I am new to this type of 3d modeling and I will have to say that I don’t mind the interface at all as a new user. I have never sculpted before now and I feel free. Anyone that is afraid to try new things will not grow. It’s fun to share what that you like with others (like Zbrush), but that’s all you can do. It’s thier choice to want to use it or not. Just be glad you chose to use it.

#13

Yes, you were doing that internet thing where you were spraying the walls with subjective opinion and passing it off as gospel. Which is fine, it’s what people do on the internet. Not everyone agrees with your assesment though, and I was paraphrasing you in a less inflamatory fashion.

Every interface can be improved more to a user’s liking. That is a truism…it is always true, about any interface to any software you can name. But not everyone will agree on the ways it should be “improved”, and frankly, no one cares about your “huge document of poor design decisions”. Certainly not the many , many people who use ZB every day without impediment, of which I am one. Z’s interface has improved markedly with every version of the program, and I’m sure will continue to.

I’m sorry you have such probelms. I have my own list of things I’d like to see improved, and interface issues arent anywhere near the top…it’s simply not an issue for me. Everyone’s list will vary.

#14

Pedramz, I simply meant that if you are training for a position in the CG industry ( games, film, television, etc), the ease with which ZB is able to do some things is no substitute for a solid foundation of skills in a a Traditional modeling/animation package. Many of the things that ZB does are incompatible with that sort of workflow, and you will not benefit from learning to rely too heavily on them early on in your learning process.

For instance, Polypaint and Z tiles are great, but it doesnt mean you don’t need to know how to unwrap and lay out UVs. Eleventy bajillion polygons is super, but useless outside of Zbrush if you dont know to import that information into your target app. And ZB compensates for poor geometry by simply throwing millions of polygons at it…not an option anywhere else. You still need to know how to construct good geometry.

None of these things matter if youre never going to leave ZB. But if youre looking towards a industry style workflow, it should be viewed as a tool that adds to your tradtitional package, not replaces it, and as much as I love it, I wouldnt recommend anyone with such ambitions to start out in Zbrush before they had that solid foundation.

#15

I actually like this sort of discussion. As a beginner/intermediate 3d user in general, I would have always rather had an easy to use program, and let the execution of my hand drawn lines and composition determine how well the piece gets done. That’s reality. I believe any determined person starts out that way.

But understanding that all of these other “technical” aspects, not only in the industry… but even in personal projects, you’re going to just get better results using a few or more really good apps, and knowing your way around them well. If one program can’t do it, you better bet someone is going to look for the one that can. They’re all, indeed, extensions or augmentations of each other. We open the application that’s useful at the time.

And as was mentioned before… for just doing illustrations you cannot go wrong with Zbrush. Even so, most of the time you’re going to have to open photoshop at some point. So, there you go again.

I imagine those that create maquettes for the big film companies simply can’t live without the Z. Plus you can save your money, instead of buying all that clay. :wink:

#16

…and frankly, no one cares about your “huge document of poor design decisions”. Certainly not the many , many people who use ZB every day without impediment, of which I am one.

No one cares? Well thank God almost everyone is like you! That’s awesome news. For a moment there I thought someone out there might have a legitimate problem… but thanks to you, I now know all is fine with the world. I’ll let all the people who have issue with Zbrush’s and Blender’s interfaces know they’re in the minority, and all will be fine.

Look, sarcasm aside, you’re right that everyone’s list will vary. I’m not having many issues myself… really. But, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see people are having legitimate problems with the interface that go beyond it being ‘different’. In the world of applications, Zbrush’s UI isn’t an award winner, and that’s why many people prefer not to use it.

#17

Amateur user, my comments bear little if no weight.
But I would like to point out something ironic.
The present version with all its faults and limitations took quite
some time in debuting.
I have a memory of another thread in which all manners were forgotten.
It had to do with put it out now.

I have a small suspicion that if anyone at Pixologic had mentioned
yet another delay due to refiguring the interface, there would
have been a crowd in the streets with a rope.

In the case of zbrush, which has not been out that long, I think
of it as an evolving program.
Since that evolution’s cost is essentially not bourne by the
cash paying customers… I give them a lot of slack.

#18

OMG, from a newbie post asking the hermit, this thread has turned into a full blown war. I hope it doesn’t spook out pedramz
Anyway, in the end of the day, there is NO other apps out there that can match what ZB can do in a regular PC. Just look at those on the top row. And that’s what’s important. I’ve seem MS Paint art that is MUCH better than some people has cooked up in photoshop. It is a pointless moot point to debate how good an interface configuration is because for every interface, even a very user friendly one, people still would have to get used to it. And once you got the hang of it, it’s exceptionally very nicely configured. Such is the case of blender and zb and Maya and Max and XSi and every other computer program out there.

So, fire up your Z, and start getting that top row!

(it’s incredible how many people with first posts has gotten up there while a lot of senior members has NEVER gotten to the top row, n’est pas?)

#19

a couple of hours IS a reasonable amount of time to learn a user interface.
personally, it took LESS than an hour for me to get to grips with the mudbox interface, to the point where i could sculpt and paint a model.
the zbrush interface i would have to fight for a day, with forum jumping and all sorts of fisticuffs before being able to grasp the basics, and locations of those basics.
in mudbox i did this WITHOUT TUTORIALS.
the UI is simply so clean and straightforward, you don’t need tutorials to figure it out. with Zbrush you’d have to spend a day to get the UI to where its somewhat moderately useable, and you’ve highlighted and found the most useful tools.

#20

The current Ui is not a big problem to get accustomed with,especially if you work with the app alot, and understand its logic, but its not clean and streamlined as the MB UI. this is probably due to its 2.5d app inheritance.

BTW, ZB has much more features to deal with and organize.

I can say some of the workflows of the app are too convoluted and not easy to remember when you first start. all the rest is a charm. :wink: ,

Pixologic should do the effort of providing an alternative different UI , more clean and logic, and offer some more streamlined workflow in some areas.
there are lots of good and professional Ui designers out there. its only that most 3d software houses tend to underestimate user experience

Pixologic doesn’t underestimate user experience from the features POV, since they have innovative cool ideas about the tools, but strictly, looking to zb and MB UIs you can clearly see whats cleaner and better organized.

Zb is just more powerful app, tho eh eh :wink:

I think that such a wonderful and popular software deserves an UI redesign. Maybe ZB 4 ? (say 4, since 3.5 should come relatively soon)