ZBrushCentral

An open discussion on interface issues

Since the company monitors the forum I think this is the best place to get all the issues in one place. Before I put in my two cents I just wanted to say I love ZBrush but I think it can be far more user friendly. The joke is many of the problems I have with it show up in the tutorials that were made by experts with the software.

I think fundementally the software’s interface still wants to be a 2D painter. Everything is constantly trying to get you back to a 2D environment that the software is most comfortable with. Virtually everything you do can make the software “drop” the model. Essentially it takes a 2D snap shot then resets the tool. Annoying doesn’t begin to cover it and it has made learning it a nightmare. Things that are simple in any other package are difficult to the point of being nearly impossible. The layers system functions more like Photoshop where as in a 3D package it should, at least optionally, function more like Lightwave. Trying to work on more than one part of a model at once seems to involve constantly redrawing the model from the buffer. I’m sure a lot of the reason for handling it in this way is memory but it happens even with low res models. I know every new software wants to reinvent the wheel but certain conventions exist for a reason. It took years for Lightwave to surrender and adapt the “Z, X, C, V” convention. I absolutely understand freezing the image for Projection Master but the joke is that’s the one function that doesn’t drop the model. Alot of items that you use constantly should be grouped together. Half the Tool menu should be with the Transform menu.

One major nightmare is the sysmetry. That one crops up all the time on the tutorials. How about a set of indicator buttons in the standard window indicating symetry so you know if it got turned off? If half the model is off screen you have no way to know if what you are working on is symetrical. I’ve had mixed luck with the Smart Resym so it’s not good to depend on it. On a similar theme it would be great to have a mirrored selection. It’s nearly impossible to get two sides perfectly mirrored in the selection so if you work too close to the edge you risk loosing symetry. Seems a simple fix. A mirrored Mask would be good as well. I don’t want to ramble on too long and would love for others to voice their issues so that maybe future releases would take some of it into account. I know there are a lot of comments about all this spread over the forum but I thought it’d be good to get a lot of it in one place.

PS my last comment for now, how about grouping the Save functions together? Another standard convention that wasn’t followed. Document saving and Tool saving should be grouped together as well as saving Alphas, Color Maps and potentially seperate bump maps. I’ve seen a lot of people comment on that confusion and it’s a pain to go hunting when you want to save a map.

Most of it tends to be tweaks except the butter finger tool dropping issues. Out of the gate ZBrush became my favorite software. As a sculptor it’s the software I always dreamed of I just think it can be even better and far more user friendly and a lot less frustriating to use and learn.

I had all these same complaints a while back…
Zbrush was limitlessly frustrating…but…after struggling with it for a year now…I think I enjoy its strange interface more than any other application. Perhaps it’s masochism…but I can sit and model in zbrush and it feels like I’m just playing a video game. Any other app…and it’s a chore.

If I could get a job doing zbrushing…I think I’d be entirely satisfied…

I think they should keep pushing where they are going…
Perhaps add a real perspective mode…and all those other great features coming in the next update…

But I think I dig zbrush with all it’s oddities.

I keep hitting the CTRL button on all my other apps to get help on the specific item…
The interface is not perfect but it is unique and innovative.

Photoshop has the most enjoyable interface I’ve ever seen and the easiest to use. I just think there’s an obvious problem when the experts still have the same issues. The real probelm with non standard interfaces is switching back and forth. I find myself now trying to rotate the model in Lightwave by clicking in the active window all the time.

My quote about learning any new software is “where did they hide it and what did they call it”? After your first few pieces of graphics software 90% of the basics are the same in all packages. The problem is the programers seem to feel the need to hide the controls different places and come up with their own cute names. The hidden controls are said to be for “productivity” but generally the choices seem pretty arbitrary. EVen upgrades can radically restructure controls and change very common hot keys.

The single biggest issue with ZBrush is the dropping of the tools. Yes you can gradually learn to avoid it but it shouldn’t be such an effort. At the very least warn you when it’s about to drop the tool and give you a chance to op out. Like I say even the experts get nailed with this one.

The sense of accomplishment should be from the models that are generating not mastering the quirky interface. I’m having Animation Master flashbacks of late. Only with Animation Master it was the constant crashing. I’ve had the early versions crash a dozen or more times an hour. I abandoned it after the big windows update when they merged the interfaces. The version that shipped refused to install and boot up and had zero documentation. I gave up and switched to Lightwave. I found later most of their user base did the same. The company never really recovered from that disaster. Sadly at the time Lightwave sucked for character animation and Animation Master was pretty amazing for its time. The stablity just made it unusable. I still remmeber easily doing things way back then that I still can’t do with Lightwave. Then I remember it crashing constantly and all the bugs and I think better of Lightwave.

I think it would have been far better to have seperated the functions. More to the point the 2D and 3D functions should have been more seperate. It should take a dilberate effort to convert to 2D not accidentally clicking the wrong button. A lot of the interface is tied to keeping you in ZBrush for rendering and such while the vast majority are looking to export their models. I realize the obvious dream is to become the next 3D animation package but it’ll be a lot of years before it can compete with Maya, Lightwave or Max. If they stick with quirky interfaces it’ll probably never be accepted as a professional animation tool. It’s likely to rule modeling for many years but if they aren’t careful others will follow their lead and incorporate simlar modeling strategies and use more traditional interfaces. The old saying of if everyone says you’re wrong you probably are applies to ZBrush. Everyone has the same problems with the interface so there’s obviously a problem here. Saying the users are wrong isn’t contructive. They need to take notice and work back to an interface that is more user friendly. On my next project I’m likely to have to teach a half a dozen modellers to use it and I’m not looking forward to it. I already plan to get a stack of tutorial disks for them to watch before they get near the software. Seems the only way to learn it at this point.

Just for balance, you understand, and not to gainsay …

AFAIK, all options that drop you from 3D to 2.5/2D give you a big old warning message first, with the option to cancel. The only time I can think of when you don’t get the message is when you first draw your object or tool on screen and forget to hit T to go into Edit mode. If you press the ‘Don’t Show this Warning Again’, of course, it doesn’t until your next session.

The interface is totally configurable. I’m sure it’ll take ages to alter it to how you like it, or like it better anyway, but it can be done with simple Ctrl drag.

I like the way symmetry works in ZB … I much prefer it to using mirrored instances. Probably just the way my brain works, but I feel more secure modelling a ‘live’ complete model, rather than just one side.

And I think part of the reason for different naming and display conventions is as much to do with copyright as it is to do with bucking the trend for its own sake.

Not that everything is perfect, mind you. I wish there was a simple extrude tool and ways to add verts and edges by hand. But, once I’d put the hours in and got a basic grasp of what the program does, I found the layout both logical and ergonomic. Fun, too.

If you look over the forum you find a lot of the same comments that I made. Like I said I see the guys on the tutorial DVDs still having these problems.

I beg to differ about dropping the tool. One of the few times it gives you a warning is switching tools. Just swtiching between layers causes it to drop the tool. I was trying to add an extra element with teeth to a cartoon character and found it was too clunky and too much of a hassle so I’m adding them in Lightwave. It can’t be beat for organic modeling but for a lot of operations it’s still infinitely easier in a traditional modeler. The learning curve is far nastier than it needs to be. If you only model certain things like say heads, you might not run into as many of the workflow issues but trying to use it as a production modeler is difficult. I doubt I’ll be abandoning Lightwave Modeler anytime soon. Most of the benefit is in the nurb modeler. For traditional poligonal modeling it has some cool functions but the interface makes it too cumbersome to do. Most of the benefit comes in the mapping. Importing a model to do displacement maps on has some pretty nasty downsides. As I use it I find I’m rapidly narrowing what I’ll be using it for not the other way around. 90% of it is fixable but if there’s no push to improve the issues I doubt I’ll ever use it for more than certain organic models that use the displacement maps for for detailing. Also obviously the 3D painting. With some fixes it could be ten times the software it is. And it’s not tweaking it to my personal preferences. Having multiple active layers would be a massive benefit to all and has nothing to do with preferences. If every software took the stance of if it ain’t broke don’t fix it we’d all still be working with crome balls and not much else. There’s plenty of room for improvement.

Just off the top of my head…

…I’d like to be able to zoom, tumble etc. the viewport without moving the pen off the canvas or to the side of my active object. A minor thing, but would greatly speed up modelling I think.

I’d also like to interactively paint masks in Projection Master then color or deform the unmasked parts. The stencil is a pain IMHO. (This would be my most urgent feature request I think.)

Yeah the zbrush interface is totally unique and a pain to learn (especially without a manual!), but with all its quirks, it’s a just a little bad to take with all the good!

Interesting topic.

For myself, I have been using Zbrush for over 4 years. V1.0. It is still a relatively new program I think and definitely ever evolving with each upgrade.

The interface was the topic…but it sounds like it evolved into a bit more.

Zbrush is a tool like anything else. You learn to use the right tool for the right job. You wouldn’t use Vice-grips to do eye surgery, but you would use hemostats or something like that…and I am sure “in the business” there are some things that Z might make harder or impossible to do. So it boils down to your needs.

Pixologic has changed the interface a few times and now as stated you can customize your Z to better fit your desktop needs. So they compromised for us, the end user.

As a 3d program…it has truly evolved. Not that long ago we were all still using a 3d sphere to make bodies, body parts etc…and only the truly skilled came out with realistic works IMHO…(and I wasn’t one of those people I assure you), but I still was having fun. Now I love my zspheres.

I don’t exactly understand production modeling (the term) and I am just an aspiring user with alot of time vested in learning the wonderful world of zbrushing.

When you first pick up zbrush, you can immediately start producing images. But as a noob, you cannot expect to pick it up and be an expert. You didn’t do that with Lightwave, Maya, Silo, Modo or anything else…it takes time…and you have to be a bit devoted to learning the program.

Zscripts are your friend for learning without question in my book. And now they are putting out the DVD’s that are helping people out even further…(pocket books inclusive…ya have to love free enterprising).

Zbrush is used in the “business” by some of the big boys…ie Weta…Ken Brilliant…to name a couple…so something must be working right for them and their workflows…

Can the program be better? Sure, it can…as can any tool…I wish it had active layers you could go back into and continue editing and placing models around with different camera views…and animation capabilities…which I think we will see in the future at some point as Z evolves further out of it’s own infancy…

Bang for the buck…At these bargain basement prices you can’t go wrong . You get a unique tool that gives very kewl results…and like a tool box, you have more than one tool.

Either the program is good for you or not. I just don’t think from the tone of your post, Belseth, that you are giving enough time to learning the program.

Once you learn the basics of how to do the little things, like a head, the rest of the program are the bells and whistles…those things you pick up and learn on your Zbrush journey. And Z has hotkeys basically …so push and pull on a 3d sphere or build your zsphere model and fall in love all over again with an outstanding software…

or…

Get mad because it’s not a perfect tool, delete it off yoru system and bad mouth it’s flaws to the world without ever truly taking the time to learn it.

You obviously have used zbrush in some form or fashion. I looked for your gallery here and didn’t see any pics from you yet. Do you have any posted anywhere? I know I would love to see examples of your works.

Well I am out of breath :smiley: Fun discussion.

regards,
Ron
[email protected]

I think the comment about aggregating the save functions is interesting. I know there’s a plug in for it but sometimes I wonder if a more comprehensive approach would be easier to work with.

I wish I had some input on what that would be, but I still feel like I’m doing something wrong when I save the model and then dump the “document” when I exit zbrush.

I had the same reaction to trying to get straight what needs to be saved each session. It’s what I was talking about with standard conventions. Keeping all the save and load functions under something like “File” makes sense. Also having all the map functions under a heading would be nice. Call them what you like it has texture maps and displacement maps. There should be an easy place and way to generate and save them all for use in other softwares. Where as they can all be exported it seems conceptually that it was all designed to remain in ZBrush. The exporting seems a bit like an after thought and more than a bit clumsy.

I completely agree with the points made about the non-standard interface, it makes Zbrush very difficult to learn. Zbrush can do things no other application can do, but it is damn frustrating for me to use. For every single new thing I want to do I need to go to this site and do a search on how to get it done exactly because using common sense doesn’t seem to work with ZBrush. Finally I am at the point where I know enough to work properly, but I gave up at least 4 times out of sheer frustration.

The viewport navigation is like playing Twister: “press ALT, click mouse, release ALT, then move the mouse to zoom”…wtf?! You can NEVER figure this out by just playing around with the program, you have to read the manual or watch a video tutorial just to learn how to navigate. No wonder people are complaining! Standard UI schemes work and people know how to use them, why reinvent the wheel all the time?

Sometimes things are very confusing when there is no need for it. Take the ‘inflat’ transform mode. inflat sounds to me like it makes something ‘flat’. To my suprise ‘inflat’ means ‘inflate’ in Zbrush language! I mean come on! There is enough space in that button for that extra letter, so why in heavens name would you call it ‘inflat’ instead of ‘inflate’?!
Everything seems so ‘bolted on afterwards’, it feels like Microsoft Paint turned into a 3d modelling program. I understand Zbrush started as a 2.5 paint program and evolved into what it is today, but 2.5 painting is not what people what to use it for anymore. It feels like the functionality of the program has grown, but the interface has not.

“Zbrush is used in the “business” by some of the big boys…ie Weta…Ken Brilliant…to name a couple…so something must be working right for them and their workflows…”

That is not a correct agrumentation at all. Zbrush can do things no other program can do, completely true, but that doesn’t mean the interface is good. The #1 complaint about Zbrush is that the interface is terrible, I know no other program about which people complain so much about the interface. There must be a core of thruth in this complaint!
Ofcourse you can say ‘stick with it and you’ll learn eventually’, but if I were the developers I would stop and think for a while about the future of Zbrush. Zbrush is absolutely brilliant (I emphasize this so that you know that I have great respect for the program, I’m not just badmouthing here).

But, I think that if there was a program with the same functionality but a standard user interface, that 95% of the new users would go for the standard interface and would learn it 10 times quicker.

My suggestion (and I know this means nothing coming from a guy with less than 10 posts) is to hire a very good interface designer, do a complete interface overhaul and focus the program more on the strong 3d side. Let people use Photoshop and Painter for painting, and Zbrush for making amazingly detailed characters.

edit: deleted double post

Haha this happens to me also all the time, then i realize there is no other software with a description which buttons does what :laughing: (*except some webaps with overlib)

I also hit the ‘s’ key in photoishop to resize my brush, then i see that i jsut selected my clone stamp lol :slight_smile:

Btw I love the interface i wish more apps had an interface like this… it saves me so many mouse clicks :+1:

To the original poster and to mr. Mvijfwinkel I have no real issues with the ZB interface. I know other people who are more stick in the mud about certain apps and tend to look down on it but I have been using ZB for a number of years now. It’s second nature. I do have issues with other apps and their interfaces though (LW, Max, Maya)…egads I hate using those programs. I do everything in ZBrush and find it easy enough to navigate and execute needed workflow.

I don’t know that I would like ZBrush any better if it had a “conventional” Windows-type user interface. Keep in mind ZB is not just for detailing imported models as many of the more common daily posts here at ZBC would indicate. That seems to be the focus (at this time) because the professionals are now stepping into the light and showing off the spectacular features of ZB. But, ZB is so much more than “just” a detailer and as such it has need of a more unique, dare I say, eccentric user interface.

I thought at first the interface was nuts…for maybe a week. But then it became a part of me. 2.0 is so customizable that I have everything right where I want it and I don’t have to think…just do. That is not so for me in other modelers.

Sure it could use some tweaks. Most of the stuff talked about can be fixed by customizing it to your own needs or there is a script or plugin that handles it.

no program is perfect.

I would absolutely hate it if zbrush decided to be like everyone else. It’s not a program like any other and deserves it’s unique interface which is extremely intuitive once you learn a few basics which most folks won’t bother to take the time to do. This goes for any program anyway. They all have their own way of doing things even if on the face of it, it seems similar to other programs.

zbrush requires a letting go. Once you do you’ll find you wish every program was more like it.

but that’s just my humble little opinion.:rolleyes:

Quote:“I understand Zbrush started as a 2.5 paint program and evolved into what it is today, but 2.5 painting is not what people what to use it for anymore.”

Couldn’t agree more. The whole concept behind ZBrush is deeply annoying to me. I feel like I have to adapt to twisted and unintuitive ways just because once upon a time someone wanted to invent something oh so different and new.
No offence if I’m wrong. But who really appreciates all that unique strangeness in the UI? Start with importing objects, where you need to drag and hold shift, but under no circumstances click again, instead press T untill: aaah, you’re ready to go.
Navigation sucks badly. While it feels fluent in other apps (in fact doesn’t feel at all because it’s so easy) in Zbrush the closer you zoom in on your model the more difficult navigation gets, until you have to completely change (!) the way you do it using one of several alternatives. I mean think about that. Theres three or four ways to navigate that suck. I need ONE that doesn’t. And I want to be able to customize it. Think of ANY commercial 3D package, think of Mudbox first of all and you see it’s possible.
And that’s what bothers me most. I feel mocked and not taken seriously. If there’s a so much better way WHY can’t Zbrush go there?
Anyone who shares this point of view please tell Pixologic.

[email protected]

Yeah! And why can’t the damned Brits drive on the right side of the road? Christ, it’s downright dangerous!

Sven

Nice contribution. Feel better now? Good. If you need to kill time go somewhere else.

considering you said that to Sven one of the zgods i’d say it was you wasting time and trolling, you posted the same complaint 3 times in 3 threads in one day.

Oh come on. I thought this was more about the subject and less about ego. I admit that I have been repeating myself, but (as has often been the case on this forum) that is because I feel strongly about the subject and would like to hear other opinions. That includes yours and that of Sven of course. So please say what you have to say in an appropriate tone. I’m here for support, not for fighting.