not to dig at your post dude. but isn’t improving their product by continuing to make it more accessible. flexible and user user_centric one of the more important things pix should be doing ?
From the ZBrush 3 announcement post, where it talks about features that are still to be implemented:
Dude, Aurick answered my question. There’s a host of things that we can’t do at-all which are critical to real work. Like I said, saving 3 minutes to learn the navigation system (for just those that know “Maya”) seems pretty low on the priority. To actually learn do high end sculpting with something like ZBrush will probably take hours (though a couple of new guys here at my firm picked up on ZB3 rapid start almost right away.) Surely you’d invest more than a few minutes to navigate Photoshop or learn how to do some of Maya’s more complex tricks.
Since there is a finite amount of resources at Pix, and it’s something of a zero-sum game, I’d vote for Pix working hard at Aurick’s list (not to mention maybe a Mac or Linux port) thast sculpters need rather than blowing energy redesigning the interface to suit a few people too lazy to spend a few minutes to learn the product.
Accessibility is in the mind of the beholder. Just because you’re taken with Maya scheme doesn’t mean it’s the only (or even best) scheme.
As far as user-centric goes, I think Pix is pretty user-centric compared with some. They work hard as a small company to implement tons of features that literally can not be done easily or quickly elsewhere.
Dude, take a few hours, learn the product. Maybe buy yourself Meat’s DVD and learn what this product can really do before pontification on the relative importance of new features.
BTW, Dude, you solicited my opinion on your first post–and now you have it. 
Asking for other’s opinions and then digging at them when they don’t favor your agenda is rude, dude.
-K
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i was neither attacking or attempting to mock you in my post. which is what i meant by ’ not to dig at your post . . . ’
i actually know zb quite well. and are comfortable with the nav. to a point. which is not to say that i agree with it. i favour a maya like scheme. which is not for everyone. so i stress the need for more options. that’s my agenda. to support the development of the app by discussing where things could be improved
I think if you search around, navigation has been pretty thorouighly discussed–are you suggesting that the Pix developers don’t know or aren’t aware of the desire for alternative navigation systems?
I’m just glad they finally treated the #1 newbie disease I’ve seen (after training a good dozen sculptors to use ZB) which is warn them before they accidentally drop their 3D model (tool) to canvas (and hence, no longer editable.)
IMHO, your efforts would better spent if you gathered more the whole field of user interface and workflow issues and then gathered community opinion on, out of a broader list, what is higher priority–the product managers and developers might be able to make better use of that data. Polling on a single feature and single solution does not seem like a very productive use of time.
I see no need to argue. Be pleasant and cheerful. You’re among friends here. 
Regarding the navigation options, it sounds as though the Hotkey Manager that’s on the way will allow the customizability that some of us have been hoping for. (By the way, Maya’s navigation isn’t “standard”, just one popular approach.)
Personally, I don’t see the issue simply as a matter of easing the learning curve. I learned ZBrush’s navigation quickly enough. For me, the frustration comes with having to switch between navigation methods between each of my 3D applications. I’d prefer to have similar navigation in each application to make my experience more fluid rather than switching “finger memory” each time I move a move a model between applications.
I have essentially the same navigation hotkeys between all of my other programs, Silo, UVLayout, and 3ds Max (via the dRaster Switcher plug-in). When I move a model into ZBrush, I invariably fumble the navigation as my fingers automatically expect the same keys. Hopefully, once the new Hotkey Editor is implemented, I will be able to match ZBrush’s navigation to that of my other applications.
ZBrush will keep improving, of that I am sure.
Peace!
What’s the invert brush key in Max? What’s the mask key in Silo? 
I agree that “finger-memory” is an interesting phenomon, but to use a musical analogy, I almost feel like I’m sometimes listening to people discuss that the “user interface” of violin is “different” than that of a piano, and therfore the violin maker should go out and fit the instrument with keys to make it easier to go between the two instruments. (The both produce music, right? The should both have common interfaces . . .)
It sounds a little silly when applied to musical instruments, why should it be different for sculpting technique?
To give another real-world example, I’ve fabricated special effects in latex, clay, plastistruct, wood, metal, and you name. I don’t expect the user interfaces of the tools to be identical–I expect them to maximize my ability to work with the medium. It would be silly to expect tools that shape wood to be the same design as tools that shape clay–some are similar, some are different–that’s the nature of things.
Given everything else Pix could be doing with their time, is strapping keys to violins the best thing they should be doing? Maybe I’m trying to hold back the tide, but I’m glad that they’ve emphasized sculpting functionality over adding a lot of tool redesign to make ZB behave like product X or Y.
When I get off my bicycle and into my car, I don’t look for the brake on the handlebars–I know it’s a pedal. So far I’ve hardly hit anything . . . 
-K
The examples you’re comparing to are extremely primative. When you buy a bike that requires memorizing hundreds of maneuvers that you’d already figured out how to do on a more popular and intuitive bike, let me know. And on that note, there’s a reason why you have to take a class, take a test, and have a license to drive a car. It’s not nearly as easy as riding a bike due to the added complexity. By comparison, even driving a car is as easy as picking your nose compared to learning a new software package such as ZBrush (or whatever), and that problem is magnified by the lack of intuitive navigation customization.
Violins have been around for hundreds of years and have not changed at all. Pianos have been around for hundreds of years and have not changed either. ZBrush will be replaced by SoftwareX in less than 10 years, which will be replaced by SoftwareY in 10 years, and so on. When you get a job as a ‘general musician’ that needs to know both violin and piano, your employer already knows that you’ve gone to school or whatever and are skilled at those two instruments. When you’re a digital artist and an employer drops ZBrush 3 in your lap and says “I need that sculpt finished by friday”, it’s a different story altogether.
I understand your side of the argument, I’m just pointing out that your analogies are both ridiculous and irrelevant.
I must admit that I feel like chuckling a little. I did mean to stir the pot but I didn’t expect quite so much ardent passion right off the bat. Lets try to keep things civil here k, but interesting at the same time.
Let me explain a few things.
1st - When I refered to Maya’s navigation scheme (alt+mouse based navigation) as “standard” I did so for simplicities sake. Maya-style navigation is present in max and xsi as well, though xsi switches it up a bit. The point was to identify the navigation style that I believe people in the industry are the most widely familiar with, and hence the one that I think most new users of Zbrush are likely to wish for right off the bat. Generally when people talk about Zbrush Navigation my experience has been that they compare it to Maya-like navigation.
2nd - Indeed there are several navigation styles present in the industry, by no means am I suggesting that what I have termed “standard” is necesarily best. Part of the intent of this thread is to get an idea of what styles of navigation people prefer; to give readers of this thread an opportunity to learn of styles they may not already be familiar with, and therefore expand everyone’s views of what’s possible, and learn a little about the pro’s and con’s of different nav-styles for the benefit of future developers and artists. Zbrush chose a unique nav-style out of a spirit of innovation, and that is very worth-while, it’s a necessary step in the discovery of better things. So, lets share our unique experiences with this object in mind - advancement.
3rd - I am well aware that there are many things about Zbrush that you hear people frequently complain about, but I think that giving concentrated attention to one at a time has benefits that can’t be obtained by a more general discussion. As you can see from the posts that have been placed already there is a lot that can be said about any one of the issues.
My motive in starting this thread is several fold, but essentially it comes down to this: This is a topic I care about and I think others do too, and I see this as a real opportunity for exploring some good ideas and obtaining some creative input. Further I do think that the current zbrush navigation system has some serious flaws and I hope that this thread might contribute to changes for the better. I will detail my opinions on this topic in a later post.
Meanwhile I think it would be helpful if people refrained from trying to prove each other wrong and concentrate instead on making a well thought out case for there views. That would be much more beneficial to this interests of this topic.
Thanks everyone.
Of course there’s not feature parity between all 3D applications. But navigation itself, (Zooming, Rotating and Panning) is straight forward and the topic at hand.
I appreciate the intent of the thread Francis. And fortunately it appears, as Aurick pointed out, that the planned Hotkey Editor may be just the answer we’re hoping for. So I’m excited by that.
Cheers!
Funny, it took me longer to learn to drive a car (and in the state I grew up there was a 30 hour mandatory classrom and 15 hour behind-the-wheen instruction minimum.) It only took me about 4 hours to make my first satisfactory sculpt in Zbrush–other than just playing around. (Of course I had to learn to drive stick and use the manual choke to get it to start on cold mornings . . .) :lol:
I also think your argument that “real” ZB user that Pix should be worried about is someone who is sufficiently crazy to open the box on Monday and deliver production work on Friday. Running an advertising business, I can tell you I would never go to one of my artists and give them such a deadline–unless I wanted to loose the client!
In any case, simply copying Maya’s key scheme only satisfies those that come from a Maya background. What about 3DSMax, Lightwave, C4D users? What about the hobbyists coming up from Poser, InfiniD, RayDream, Cararra, SketchUp, etc., etc., etc.? How to satisfy them?
I humbly submit that taking the few minutes necessary to learn ZB’s unique navigation method isn’t the biggest thing to worry about. Irrelavent as my examples may be, they’re at least clear. I could give closer examples such as learning how to use Photoshop versus Painter versus PaintShop, but I think that the subtlely would be lost on those people not knowing the more intricate channel/layer commands.
My point is that learning the product and what it can do shouldn’t be an optional thing for professionals. Maya’s scheme, which is currently what’s being taught in the schools, while popular is by far the sole way to do things as proposed. (Personally I like it when the mouse wheel is the zoom control, for example 
.)
Now let’s talk about whether Zmapper is more important. (I have, thusfar lost more time to the lack of Normal Map functions, non-support of the Mac platform, setting up Windows and virtual machines than learning a hundred new navigation schemes will likely cost me! :rolleyes: )
-K
But the very keys you want for Maya-land are employed elsewhere! (That was my point.) And if Navigation itself was straight-forward, it wouldn’t be the topic at hand! I’ve pointed out at least a half-dozen apps that don’t share Maya’s mouse scheme, so it can’t be all tha straight-forward, now can it? I guess that is what suprises me so much about this thread, is the belief system some people have that they way they do it is the right and only way, and moreover, the world should be changed to accomodate them. It’s silly.
My examples may be rediculous, but they highlight the weirdness of the belief system that things must be changed to suit themselves, like sculpting on a computer is some other alien thing where the magic box must conform to our desires or the company who created the software should be brow-beaten into doing it my way.
Would I like a fully customizable system, perhaps like Modo’s? Sure! But I’m being pragmatic–with all the things Pix has to do, or could do with ZB, I think worrying about implementing Maya’s Nav scheme is just not the biggest thing in the world. It’s not even 10th biggest.
I gave the car example, because I think it would be funny to think I’d crash my car because my momentary lapse of “finger memory” (sometimes referred to as muscel memory in cognative psychlogy cicles) would cause me to crash my car because I forget where the brake was! (A more accurate example would be that I have two cars, one with a handbrake for parking and one with a foot brake for parking–suprisingly, I’m not positing letters to Ford insisting they change their brake mechanism lest I forget where the brake is!)
-K
Ah, is it only civil to agree with the entire thesis of your opening post? I’ve given you logical, and somewhat humorous examples of my points. They have been mocked as “rediculous and irrelavent.”
(Obviously I didn’t think so or wouldn’t have offered them up.)
By all means return to putting of piano keys on violins–I’ll just watch from here on out. (The request for opinions other than those that agree with your thesis was apparently disingenuous.)
Cheers!
-K
sorry Kerwin. but i think you’re way off the mark here. the point of this thread is not to outright supplant zb’s nav scheme with that of maya’s. or any other. it is to discuss potential alternatives. options and ways that zb could be improved in this area to satisfy a broader audience. user preference and customization
what you have is a non argument against developing the app to be an even more flexible system than it is now. and there’s a contradictory message to your posts since admitting you’re happy with the current way of things your feeling is folks should have it your way. and not theirs
this is not intended as a personal attack. and you’re right. there are more pressing needs at hand ( i’m suffering work halting scale issues between maya and zb ). but that should not mask the fact that this has been a concern for many users for a long time and should be addressed in the spirit of developing the application
I need better glasses. The title of the thread is “Opinion Poll - Navigation” and from Post #1:
Votes in Favor of…
Current Zbrush:
Standard Nav as in Maya:
For the record, I agree with you that more customization would be nice. I’m not arguing that point. I’m pointing out (and being mocked) for indicating that 3 minutes of learning, or overcoming a instant’s hesitation in muscle memory, may not be the most important thing here.
You can reframe the discussion six ways from Sunday, but all this seems to be is a barely transparent attempt to stir the pot to see how many “votes” for “Standard Nav in Maya” which isn’t standard (and believe me, I’ve been building and working with 3d systems since 1979, I know that there is no “standard nav”).
“In the spirit of developing the application” is also pretty disingenous, don’t you think? After all, I’m pretty sure Pixolator and others know about Maya’s nav system and moreover, I’m pretty sure they know that there is a community of (vocal) customers who desire it.
Now, if you were truly interested in differng opinions, you might be collecting data on how to make pen’s and other pressure sensitive (but fewer button) things work better. Or maybe we could talk about the need for hotkeys to jump to different sculpting tools so you don’t have to jump focus to change tools. But what it has come down to in this “poll” is all about three-button mice and the alt key. Not a genuine discussion of user interface. And anyone who suggests that there is more to life than three-button mouse and alt key is put down out of the gate.
Sorry, not buying the shifting argument here. I’m with you that customization would be nice, but Maya-style alone isn’t it, and I question the relative importance as Aurick did earlier.
Now, how about we get back to sculpting and not waste any more ink and the faux “We’re just improving the program nonsense.” Write a plugin, produce an award-winning piece of art, teach a novice sculptor how to use ZB3 just as it is today. That would help ZBrush. This spillage of ink as a noble cause is plain silly, in extremis.
Sorry I didn’t roll over for you guys sooner. Proceed “improving ZBrush”.
-K
So, it’s time for me to put my 2 cents on the table. They are these:
P.S. I agree that making these kinds of things widely configurable by the user is the ideal way to go.
Bump
At the risk of having Kerwin the 27 year veteran calling me lazy I’d like a few choices please. Maya style nav. will do very nicely for those of us using multiple apps spread across multiple platforms. And by the look of Aurick’s very to the point list, it looks like Pixologic are very much on the case.
Hehe. Don’t put words in my mouth.
P.S. I hope my vote is being tabulated as “for the current ZBrush style.” I live with it, not that I’m for it. The correct tabulation would either be, “Doesn’t Pix have better things to do?” or “For a configurable solution that favors sculpting with a tablet/stylus”
-K
Kerwin, FYI - I have added your vote for Zbrush. As I see it your suggested category “A configurable solution that favors sculpting with a tablet/stylus” would fall into the existing category “Several Customizable Options”. If you like I’ll add a vote for you in that category as well in lue of your suggested category. Let me know if that works for you.