wchamlet: you have no idea how much I appreciate the advice and the offer. But
as bad as I am, is as stubborn as I am.
I want to do it myself. If I take your heads as a starting point, I learn nothing and every head I would ever post, I would have to add that it was “based on…”
Mr’s Harris,Komar,Ed the atom, in their threads have also been kind enough to post heads to work from.But I thank you very much.
Sleeper Service: you are correct but the brush size in that area was about a 10.
So far I have trying to get along without zadd, because I am getting the general opinion that that is the best way.I am making and deleting an average of 4 heads a day, each taking about one hour before I “put them to sleep”.
All are being deleted because of eyes,if I can lick eyes I will consider it time well spent.
You’re very welcome. Helping people, encouraging people, and sharing with people is what I’m all about! 
Have you looked into making a polymesh eye? Ken Brilliant has made some great walkthroughs with mutlimarkers and creating a polymesh from them.
Here is his multimarker tutorial: http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/showcase/lessons/ZSpheres_MultiMarker.zip
Turn on the polyframe display, and you will see this much more clearly: You have several polygons there that have been severely stretched in relation to the other polygons in the head. This is what is resulting in your jaggies.
Edit>Move is not necessarily the best approach when you are working on the eyes. Edit>Draw is normally more successful, with a combination of ZADD and ZSUB.
Here is a ZScript by Southern that illustrates a very good technique for modeling from a sphere: The Grumpy Elf.
Thank you all for your help.
A couple of things, obviously.
First it is not that common a problem.
Two, there are as many solutions as there are ways to make head.
Third there are some nice people here.
(but I knew that anyway)
Will try everything.
Rtyer, it not only looks like your draw size is wrong, but something that could be very very simple. When pushing and pulling, the way you have your head positioned before doing this makes a world of difference.
And I will take that script on here
Mandy
Aurick,I think you touched on it, “the stretching too far”.At times I may get impatience and “pull a few” further than they were designed for.
But if that were the case could they not be “put back”?
That’s what “undo” is for. 
If you can’t undo, then you can try moving points one at a time, or you can divide just the stretched polygons a time or two. To do that, mask them, invert the mask, and then divide the mesh. By dividing them, you are breaking them into smaller polygons, thus bringing them closer to the size of the surrounding polygons.
Note: If you do that with a polymesh object, you’re going to get triangles around the divided area. Which probably wouldn’t be a good thing.
hi ryter, as wchamlet has said you will run into problems around the eye, mouth and ear area when using a sphere3D as a base. i would suggest starting with zspheres. i know by taking others base models you wont be learning the process… but i have a script that runs through how i set up a head using zspheres that should help you to get started on one of your own. here it ispoint modelled head.zip
tjaden, thank you for the advice and down the road I may have to, but right now it would compound the problem.
I have tutorials by Harris,Komar,Atom,“The Black”.
They have been run and run and run,
Due to a great set of circumstance I have time at the moment to spend on this.
Problem is they all differ in some area, .Some believe in zadd,zsub, others don’t use it.All are great and produce good models as the net result.Surely better than I
All have a few things in common.Except for the one by Komar( low poly)they all start with the default sphere.They basically shape the head the same etc.
I have run their tutorials and tried their methods and have improved somewhat.
But after awhile, when I sit down I have to remember who is the teacher today?
Am I zadding,zsubing,pulling, pushing, working with the sphere, the cube, the “bonk”
Komar’s looked the easiest to emulate.
Yeah! Sure!
When I ran Harris’,I spent over a week about 4 hours a day trying to get half spheres for eye lids and ended up getting one of those toys where you press the stomach and the eyes pop out.
Common sense would have dictated that I quit a long time ago, but I refuse.
To try and emulate another now might turn out to be the proverbial straw.
The funny thing is that once I am able to model a head I don’t know what I will do with it.
But I will learn how to do it. Bet on it.
Thanks for your help and advice,much appreciated.
I know you got a lot more than you asked for,
forgive me its a form of purging.
Hey rtyer, or should that be tryer 
It sounds like you need to get to know your mesh a little better. As Aurick said, turn on the Polyframe view when modelling to see the grid pattern and how it flows over your model.
In your model here, it looks like you have forced your model into shapes that its mesh isn’t able to handle. It’s like sanding wood against the grain - you just end up with ugly grooves that are difficult to remove.
In much 3D modelling, the flow of the mesh is all-important. The two main techniques for modelling heads that people have described deal with this in different ways.
By starting with a zsphere model, the mesh is organised from the beginning in a way that is friendly for making heads. The mesh flows in circles about the eyes (and mouth and nose), which makes it easier to form the shape of the eye socket and lids.
The sphere3D, on the other hand, basically has a squarish, gridlike mesh. To make it suitable for adding details like eye-sockets/eyelids, people work with high-resolution spheres. By making the mesh very fine it becomes more like clay to work - the runckles where the detail goes against the flow of the mesh are still there, but they are minimised because you have so many polygons. When running the zscripts using the sphere, take note of the polygon count/resolution that people use at each stage of the modelling.
My apologies if this is too simple or self-evident. It just seemed from your posts that you were maybe getting a little lost among the zscripts and needed a refresher on the reasons behind the different ways of doing things.
As an exercise, you could record zscripts of your modelling sessions. If you find you have a problem, rerun the zscript, stop it before the problem and try a different approach (like dividing first). The undo feature also enables this but the undo history isn’t saved with a tool (on my wish-list), whereas a zscript can be used over several modelling sessions. It always lets me vent steam in the garden before returning to the fray with a clearer head
Many thanks for the time Bonecradle, will give it a try.
I can never say that no-one ever helped me.
Hey Rtyer. i know sometimes it’s all alot to take in. i would add one more thing i’ve found from using zspheres. i have found that the mesh almosts works as a guide for my modelling. i watch there psoitions and the contours they create as i work. to the point that i would find it hard to work on a model where the mesh didn’t visually describe the surface. i don’t know if that make sense. i sort of mean modelling by moving the lines of the mesh rather than looking at the surface thay create. say you decide to remodel the shape of the eye sockets on a model. the mesh itself will show you how you are redistributing the surface. i know it may seem like a harder setup and modelling process. but to me to use a sphere3d would actually be harder. 
hi Ryter,
I have trouble with the eyes (and well not so much now but lips) too…I have watched in amazement Tjadens…(i believe it was his) script on using zspheres and was amazed how he modeled with so few polys and did the eye sockets so well. I think that script is a thing a beauty to watch and to help …
your mind rethink …my mind loves more complex spheres as its is easier to model and detail but…in the end the goal seems to be less polys fantastic texturing.
However having said that…we, me, you need to find the way that works for us, I, you, they…our brains all see differently so it may be that non-zadd may not be the way to go for you…
you insist on no help model wise which tells me you are trying to find your own path…trust yourself to find it and not be ruled by majority opinions…your path is your path and no way is the 100% only way.
Trust yourself, don’t try so hard and the light bulb will shine doubly bright very soon!
rtyer great thread…
tjaden…took a while to run the script but I must say that was a real pleasure to watch you model…learned a few things that will be helpful with regards to zsphere heads…
Question…to tjadan and those that watched that script…now in order to take a low poly model like that and put it in to useable less blocky type model do you just smooth and divide that down? What is your next step in the modeling or texturing a model such as this…Thank you for any response on the subject.
Hey ron. glad that script was helpful. with that model just make an adaptive skin from it, divide twice and smooth 100. that makes a pretty good base to start working with. I also find i need to physically double the size of the model once or twice to get detailed control. the picture in the above post is that model after that has been done to it, and some more sculpting applied. i have found the Moldy script by Svengali absolutely invaluble at this stage and i use the < and > keys all the time. these adjust brush size and allow very quick variation in the amount of mesh u push and pull around.
Moldy Script
Hi ryter, i’ve been busy with something new i’m working on, and experienced similar “jaggies” half way through completion of my model. I didn’t want to start over again so had to get that part back to where it was before “jaggies”. I went to view poly mode so i could see how bad this was. I resorted to a brush size of 1 and tried to pull points into line. This was very difficult indeed “on my model”. So i tried something else, i masked the area, inverted and smoothed a couple of times, this “pulled” the points back into line, and “jaggies” were gone. As far as shaping eyes, i prefer z add and z sub, experiment with brush size and z intensity. Sorry for a bit long winded, hope this helps.
one script I will have to write for a job I do often.
saying thank you to everyone for your kindness,time, and patience.
I ran the Point Modeled script and I have one question. When it was done, I wanted to see it skinned so I saved it as a tool (so I could come back to it if I made a mistake) and then hit the make Unified skin. It immediately reverted back to the original zSpheres that you started with. I then reloaded the tool and it too was only ZSpheres. What did I do wrong? BTW: It was a little irritating since I waited through that whole long script, but wasn’t able to see the finished product.
hey LD. sorry about the fact the final stage isn’t in the script. try loading that tool and turning on preview in it’s inventory you then need to make an adaptive skin of the tool, divide twice and smooth 100. this will give a nice smooth base head with good egding around the eyes, ears and mouth. if you just want to see a picture of what it looks like, the one in my post earlier is of that model. also there are more pictures in the thread where i posted that script the first time, which ishere