Actually, all of you basically said what my aims were. The base meshes are just for tests with rigging, animation, etc, not final production. So of course I’m going to make everything from scratch later on :D.
I find it handy somtimes to grab a poser model to try out lighting or rendering test. Its also handy to use them if your learning how to texture and havent got the tine to go through the whole procedure of making your own mesh. I think its cheating when your not using your own mesh and dont mention it when posting your work, alowing others to think this is totaly your own work from scratch.
I find it most satisfining to build my own meshes and of course for alot of us we didnt have such great tools like zbrush when we started modling ,so it was down to learning the harder way. There are so many ways to get your finnished work and each way needs your best to get the results your after. Anatomy, form, weighting, posing, expression, lighting texturing e.c.t. Use the pre made mesh to learn with but its a good idear to take on the modling stage first.
The NEVER-ENDING discussion. Before CG, yeah I know - I’m old, the argument was always about is it OK to use photographs as reference for a painting if you did not take the photo yourself. I even had one Teacher in the late 60’s who taught that not making your own oils from scratch was heresy.
My personal point of view is “use the tools you have to their best advantage”. If you are doing this to earn a living and a stock image or model helps speed things up it would be dumb not to use them. Once you have built your first base model, whats the point. To keep reproducing the same one over and over again? When using one you purchased, why buy it if you are afraid to use it? Even more important, why do they sell them if not to use? The height of hypocrisy would be to build models to sell and then criticize someone for using them.
The first couple of humans I tried on my own ended up looking like exact copies because I used other models as references. So, am I right to use those? What is the difference? I’d say the models included with the software were put there to use, otherwise why waste the bandwidth on the download?
Having wasted all this space rambling on, it comes down to how do you feel about it? I worked it out by building a couple and then just grabbing whichever one I felt matched my needs and enjoying the process.
I think it depends on how far down the chain you go to be honnest. We all have to start with somthink and our idears that seem our own where installed by experiences or images we have seen in our lives, how far do you go.
When you look at the finnal results how much of it done directly by you, is the thought I have. For instance if you use a pre made mesh and pull the chin down push the eyes in and paint it all pink, how far did you take that process from where it started? If you look at a photo refference to learn anatomy ,and from that you have a fully created 3d character put in a scene posed to show a action of thought of intention, with good textures, lighting and rendering then this is a huge achivment from where it started.
Anyone can have the tools, but its the finnal results that speak out loud. Its down to personal prefference on what you set out to achive, if you got there then thats fine.
a related question – if you start with someone else’s base mesh, sculpt, and then retopologize, how much is it considered to be derived from that base mesh when none of that geometry even exists anymore?
I actually had very little understanding of topology until Z3 gave me the ability to draw it freehand on top of an existing model… I’d built a couple base meshes before, but they were by following step-by-step tutorials that explained every click in the process… now I’m just sculpting from whatever base suits me best, be it a sphere or SuperAverageMan, and then drawing my own topology on top later because I can see exactly how all the density and flow needs to work together without any advanced knowledge or planning
I agree with all the sentiments that how you feel about it in the end is the best measure… and I feel fine… but I wonder if there are any purists out there who would still say that the above approach is amateur, or specific credits need to be given, or extra steps need to be taken to be more original?
It has been Marcel (Laverdet), I believe, who said something like:
“… and if I have to feed Joghurt into my machine (to get to my pictures), I will do it!” (roughly quoted).
Nothing much to add.
Maybe, and obviously: if you use anybodies property >> give credit!
Theres nothink wrong with using say the super average man as this is a good base mesh. More so is using such a mesh alows you to learn better methods of topology, but even still this wouldnt be totaly your work even if this was new geomatry.
When I look through the zbrush gallery and even more so, the older top row images, your see the artest has good anatomy knowledge, and use his/her creativness to complete the image. If I where to make a new base mesh off the super average man id be using the good form of somone elses skill to get my base mesh, even if I didnt project all the details. This isnt cheating this is making good use of the provided meshes and the new zbrush tools.
I think all in all its how you feel about it, and how others feel if or when they find out that some credit should have gone to the originator of the form. Just use the meshes that you want and save your self time. Dont stop learning how to build meshes and in the end your want to use your own.
Zack Petroc for example in his human anatomy dvd, he starts with the most basic mesh and finnishes with fantastic results. He used a skellington in maya to build his basic posture for the base mesh, but the fact is he does it not because he has to, but because it makes sence to use a visual aid. Again he starts with nothing and finnishes with a perfectly sculptured human form.
If you used another base mesh and makde it into somthink quite different and original and just mentioned whos mesh it was showing a before and after image your be respected for it and you work and skills wil show through what ever mesh you use.
in my opinion it is artistic behavior to use all resources you can get.
well nothing is an unique idea, evrything is inspired by something. it all begun with the nature… where we get our basic impressions… till now we are cheating from the nature if you like to say it like this way 
so feel free to use what you like to. exept stealing art.
i think you should force your skills in what you can do, if you are to lazy or you got fear to model a basic char by yourself … then why the hell you shouldnt use a tool for? once in a time you will be happy if you do a fine basic model by yourself.
at least… the result counts
regArts
k0s
I would say it is totally cheating. Do you really give a crap? If your going to put it on a demo reel I would state that you use so and so for a besh mesh. If your messing around who cares. In production its what ever gets it out the door.
and what about if you’r doin nice in sculpting, texturin but got no hands on modelin? i know many guys around here, which are doin nice sculpture work doin fantastic normals and so on… but they need base meshes which they aren’t good in … if they fail in base-meshes they cant even produce nice sculptures. at least if he is showin that on a reel, i think good leaders or producers can point out what he was doin and what not. if you’r cheatin completely like the “stolen work” thread, then it might comes out sooner or later that he will fail in production.
might be hard to get my point sorry
regArts
k0s
I get what you’re saying… basically, if you’ve got talent, then it will be recognized regardless… even if you can’t do everything, you can still make yourself valuable to a team
on the other hand, if you lack talent or motivation to do anything of worth on your own, then you’ll be hard pressed to keep a job