Oh, all those bickering about the artist and the tool. The avarice! O, the avarice! The proudiness of the artist!! LOL :lol: (Don’t get offended, most if not all artists got some sort of unique “attitude”)
Anyway, so far in history, they go hand in hand. The artist need the right tool for the job. All those ancient rock carvings can’t compare with the tools of the renaissance, and even michaelangelo can’t brush on meshes.
Even in the digital age, Toy Story looks like something rendered out of poser compared to the latest 3d animation movie out there. Of course, there are stunning images coming out of the old zb, (like that lincoln in the old gallery) but z3 certainly allows more freedom to the artist than anything that has come out before it. (especially that one that comes out only several months before it) winkwinknudgenudge*say-no-more. :lol:
So, yeah, just look at those on the second row, they certainly look better (if, at least, only render-wise) than Z2. (or that box-thing)
Anyway, I wonder about Z7 or 10. Maybe one of these days, computer can become much smarter that they don’t need artists to create good looking stuff. Imagine YouTube flooded with 3D home created videos of stupid (but professional-lookin’) characters doing lame thing. One day, the tool will outsmart the user! LOL
PS. Yeah, I’m with ya, SalmonGod, O, mighty God of Salmon.
No tool makes a good artest, but a few hundred can lend a great hand, in creating somthing behond ones expectations.
Not only has Zbrush greatly advanced, but its been made much easyer by the amount of tutorials and good support by pixologic, and the users from forums such as this.
Therer are two tools that come to mind can be used by a novice user to enhance their skills behond his average ability. Topology tool can be used to create new topology around a pre made model, which disregards the ability to have a good eye for form if he or her didnt have this know how. Of corse the user is actualy learning from this, but not in the same way where hours of study was needed.
Zprojection can be use to lay out anatomy, that again only the natural talented, or the artest who studies can get such a good knowlage of without such a tool. This means there will be a certain percentage of people posting fine art but may not be from their own anatomy skills 100% which was required in Zbrush 2. I have to say at this point that there is nothink wrong with this as it invites new users and alike to achive fine results that where behond their own expectations.
Imagination and creativty go a long way in art and will often over throw a good model if its interesting to look at, but may lack anatomical visuals. My kids have had a go on Zbrush 3 and they have produced things in their imagination that they havent yet got the full ability to achive without the aided tools. This creates a spark in them to have another go, and thats the way art gets produced by us all.
Things that I look for now, is original work which has good lighting, texturing well thought out scene and character. Anatomical knowlage shows through well with the correct weighted form, and is great to look at.
Its great to see that Zbrush 3 has brought out the artest within and alowed already well skilled users to move faster and create even better things that before, ready for animation.
This is an honest question, because I’m new to Z3- but is the above statement true? and how true? Could someone explain what has changed that means that now anatomy come automatically (or more automatically) then before? And- is it the kind of “automatically” that looks wrong and isn’t production ready- or is the need for anatomical study less important for sculpting the form. I’m sure there will be varying opinions on this.
Anatomy will never be automatic and to the trained eye even the slightest thing out of place will be notice. What i can say is the closer you get the more pleasing to the eye things become. Remember im talking about art as well so things dont have to be 100% right as anatomy can be altered to bring more character out in your work.
How things have changed are that in zbrush 2 either you know how to sculpt anatomicly correct or some where between, or not at all to some extent. Here your see a wide range of levels or quality of work regarding this. This would be 100% done to the artest to research either on a basic level of much more indepth, again this with show in the result.
Now in Zbrush 3, one can simply get a anatomicaly correct model, build a brand you topology mesh from it, and use a hint of mesh projection to bring out some pre sculptured anatomy from the original.
At this point your have a look alike with totaly different topology. Now remember zbrush 3 is to make things easyer and faster so it is doing its job. but, I can say like many would agree that, it would take some time to build a figure poly by poly in another 3d application compared to how fast zbrush 3 can topologize a mesh. This would mean that you had to have certain modling skills to not only build good topology but do it with some anatomical knowledge and form.
Back to Zbrush 3, we have our look alike, with a hint of anatomy from the original base mesh. From this we can learn and sculpt over it and redifine what we are after. By the the time you have finnished tweaking the model with new topology and new form, it would be hard to tell weather this was done by a new zbrush user or somone that had spent a good amount of time researching and learning the old way. This isnt a bash on using the above method, is just a way forward that wasnt achivable before zbrush 3.
Anatomical study will always be needed if your looking to improove and be good at what your doing. I must point out that this is my thought to the explanation to the original thread title, and not to slate people for using zbrush to its advantages. Its opened up a new leash of usage to new and older users and thats the whole point, in that we can all use zbrush 3 how we like.
In a way im glad that I did put some of my old work up be it good or not, as I personaly wouldnt want people to think that I was taking the route above due shear time its taken me. Iv spent hours on end learning things to hard way and im glad I did as zbrush 3 can bring me the best of both worlds, i.e I can retopologize my own made meshes and get the joy of sculpturing and getting better at anatomy as time goes on.
I have complete respect to anyone that post their work and state that its either not 100% their own idear or base mesh. More so if you look in the gallery to the older works, your see pure tallent right the way through. Even the first ever Zbrush released shows what can be done in the right hands.
Thank you for your explanation Tez. The process you describe- does it have limitations? For example- if your orginal mesh is manly- would it work for a female figure. In the past- it has been possible to use a mesh that was not your own and detail with programs to put your own look to it- but its always been limited and therefore not really useful for production. I can see how a standard form could help out standard figures- but what happens when you need to make a Giraffe? AMy experience has been that you can tell when the a noviceuses a high quality base model- all the detail work just looks weak add-ons. At my old job, we used the same head model for each character- re-sculpted to fit the concept (This sped up rigging, texturing, and modeling)- but each head pretty much ended up looking original because the modeler had to recreate the form… I think if we just used the same head and added scars or wrinkles, it would have been obvious and weak. Is this a limitation in the process you mentioned, or am I not getting it?
Have a look at some of the beta testers works for ZB3, and some used the same base mesh with excpetional results.
For a skilled tallented artest like these, only a very basic mesh is needed as a platform. For somone starting out that has no modling skills on any applications, they have Zsphears to master, or had to use a pre made mesh. More times that not, the wire is posted to show the base.
Male, female and most animal mesh can be got with ease, free, or poser base meshes has most of these types.
Use the same model and everyone would know the second you posted the wire shots that this is a pre made mesh, which by the way isnt a bad thing if you had mentioned it in your post. Most base meshes have a hint of anatomic stucture to them and this is all thats needed for the new user alike, to sculpt over as a anatomic guide. Not only can you do this but, you can build your own toplogy that is your own, and project all that detail onto it.
By the time you have posed and tweaked it, nobody would ever know where the original base started from, and hey presto we have better quality work.
As for production, this would be behond the novice user otherwise they wouldnt be employed to do this as his/her profession.
At that, point of the professional, they would have a great understading of modling in many other applictions so they would use
zbrush as a pipeline tool or somthink to be creative with for pure art and fun, either way their anatomic skills would be above average I would asume.
One thing you cant get away with, and thats the ability to create good topology and this would show the artest to have a good grasp on animation applications and anatomic form, or has studied somthink in this area.
I know that I could get a poser animal and instuct a member of my family or friend to create a monster that would have normaly taken a good 2 weeks by conventional methods, down to one evening within zbrush. If that had been posted pre ZB3, it would have got a good amount more of attention.
If I had showed somone have to use zspears and build it from scratch the results would be a long way off from the methods above.
This shows great advancement in technlogy in the CG world but would also answer the question to the original thread to some degree.
All in all, the new user would have to do is use a base mesh, be it male, female or animal and play with it follwing its original anatomy. Look at a few pics and add some extras to it. Spend some good time on making a fair topology, pose it and a fair model would emmerge.
If that had been posted pre ZB3 then one would asume that he has spent a good amount of effort in another application building that base mesh, or knew Zsphears well. Again I have to say this, this is not a bad thing, it progression with ZB3 that has done this, and is great that everyone can have a go at somthink and come out with some good results in no time at all. This would explain why there would be more better quality work, like I say to some degree. Everyone is excited and this spawns of idears and new concepts. Its all good to view and see how Zbrush has helped achive this.
I guess I’m not getting it- and I probably will not until I try it for myself. I think I understand you can redo topology in Z3, but aside from that, I’m not sure what the difference between 2 and 3. You use the example of starting with a poser animal and working it, but I’ve always thought of a base mesh as not something that takes too long to generate unless ofcourse it was done with a high level of detail. I guess I don’t understand how that detail wouldn’t fight radical changes… I still go back to my earlier thought- you have a detailed female body that has anatomy you want to use in a male body- if the anatomy detail was of any use (meaning not just a simple form) then how could it be retooled for a totally different structure? I’ll check the tutorials on this- but if you have a link that explains this better, please let me know.
In ZB2 asuming you had little or no knowledge of 3d modling your have to rely on making your base mesh from Zsphears. Zsphears can take a while to master and this takes time, either way the base mesh would not be that great the first few tryes this means time.
ZB3, athough you can still use Zsphears you can simply use a pre made base mesh instead. Now I know you can in ZB2 but you could not declair it your own, because when somone asks for the wire shots, it would become aparent that this was not your own base mesh. Now your right, as basic base mesh is all thats needed, and for somone that has basic anatomy understading could quickly form a decent sculpt. When you get a new user trying this with no anatomy foundation, the model may look quite primitive, untill their understanding of anatomy gets better, look at my first ever pic I posted.
Zbrush 3 with the aid of a pre made mesh would alow the user to sculpt over the basic anatomy thats already there, a bit like tracing paper if you like.
That base mesh can be made into your own topology from which you project anatomy that you didnt originaly sculpt yourself. This is where the short cut has taken place.
You use the base mesh pre sculptured anatomy, as your aided guide, im talking poser base mesh for exsample, this as a base mesh thats is way behond basic.
Not only have you had a great aid but you can now build your own topolgy which iliminates that you had even used a poser mesh to start you off.
If your building a Male your use a poser male mesh, if you want a female your use a female base mesh, and so on.
If I got my friend in front of my computer and told him to follow the muscle edge flow on a pre made mesh then use the tweak tool to re-form it slightly the results would be way much better than if I can given him a very basic base mesh with no muscle anatomy. He would have to rely totaly on his own anatomic understanding which unfortunate for him would result in a way less pleasing result.
Al this is getting at realy is now with zbrush 3 results can be achived much faster with the impresion left that his or her skill has got alot better and as such better work starts showing.
Cool- makes a little more sense. Your tracing example kind of illustrates my my question- someone can trace over a drawing- but it will often look like a trace and/or take longer then a skilled draftsman to make the drawing from scratch. It sounds like if I was making a typical male/female then starting with poser would not be an issue. I used the male to female example to see what problems might arise- but really I was getting at having to work a mesh that was not built for the form you hope to end up with. A better example might be what if I need to make a centaur or six armed man- sure, you could probably find these two, but your option would be limited and in the time it took you to find the proper model… you could just model it. I’m wondering if how this could function in production, when the models you make aren’t meant to look anything like a poser model (I’m working now on something where all the characters are asymetrical and have a heavy amount of character design). Here is an even better example- celebrity portrait. If I need to make a head that looks like someone exactly- I could use a premade head for the base- but the time gain to me would seem minimal.
I see what your original point is- in the past, without re-topologizing, the base mesh would look awkward when presented in wire frame. Once again- I probably should do a little of this to understand your points. Thank you for your help.
Yep a skilled sculpture could do a rougth sculpt on a base mesh, and it would take way less time than somone that had little skill but used the base anatomy as his guide to achive a trace like guided sculpt, but if you havent gained such skill yet then the less skilled sculpture in ZB wouldnt have much of a choice if the best results is what he was after. I remember clearly spending hours days and nights trying to sculpt muscle form over my base mesh, and every time it just looked wrong without me knowing or seeing where. If I had ZB3 then it would have helped me a great deal in achving somthink more pleasing to the eye in much less time but still more than the tallented skiled artest.
You often see some peoples concept drawings and they look great. Some are better copying pictures than creating their own so they go with what produces the best results untill their own skills have improoved.
cool- I get what you mean- sort of… I guess I still don’t understand how you could use properly formed anatomy that didn’t match your final model. It seems to me that its a catch 22- the more detail and form you take from a pre-existing model, the less original your scuplt can be. You could use the model as a simple base mesh- but that kind of defeats the point. I guess if you are a complete novice and you aren’t familiar with modeleing tools and basic anatomy- then it could be helpful- but if you are taking clearly defined anatomy… then it seems like you lose the benefit of making something without confinement. Anyways- I feel like a one legged man in an ass kicking contest (no offense to one legged people)- I haven’t used Z3 enough to know what I’m saying. Thank you for your time- I’ll get back to you hopfeully after I look into what you are saying.
zbrush 3 has made it alot easyer [sp] for me to create abstract images
and as davinci said look in the stains and cracks and you will see many
creations there
please forgive my english skills…I am glad to find zbrush:D
in here it is in the eye of the artist… and what makes the artist seeit could be this or it could be that
or when it gets to be a strugle…take a walk… look around… and say thanks
if you take your skill from zb2 to zb3 its great how you see you’re making better models, better textures, bigger pictures, and the true masters are making them faster.
Also beginners are making better models faster, because first off all the better brushresponse and not needing pm master anymore for detailing and then you have posing and polypaint, things that can instantly make you models look better.
I personally like how you now can take a dense mesh and just sculpt right in there with ease something zb2 couldn’t and that brings me to the point that traditional artist are less hindered by technical things like good topology and such to make a good sculpt, if you know how something is drawn and how something looks… an eye for example, you can do it in 3d, i use an eye as example cause i still have difficulties with them,… but i must say since i worked alot on them lately i also can draw them better so the opposite is also true…cool…
there is one big issue that i see, is that the viewport navigation is still sluggish i mean its a real fight sometimes to zoom in, rotate, move… sometimes you’re model fly’s overthere and then … wait its overthere pheeeww, its crazy and its something i really want to see change, but i guess that last is for another post…
I’m sorry- I hate to be a hater… but I have to bite my tongue these days everytime I look at the top row. I think the average user has gotten better… but I don’t know about the advanced users. So now I’m wondering- was it a fluke before when I thought everyone has improved… or is this a fluke… or (most likely) art is in the eye of the beholder, and some people really like what is happening out there lately. Once again- I feel like a down right bastard to complain, but I think I need to let out my frustration at seeing the top row.
One day, the tool will outsmart the user! LOL 
