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Contructive criticism?

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#1

I recently purchased zBrush 1.23 (in anticipation of 1.5), and I’ve been browsing these forums for awhile. I’ve noticed a very disturbing trend: There is no contructive criticism happening here. Every time someone posts an image, even when it’s not very good, they get showered with an unusual amount of praise.

How are people supposed to grow if their work is never criticized? Is it right to give false hope to someone who obviously lacks artistic talent? It’s one thing to say “Great effort, and very nice idea”, but something else entirely to convince the person that they have great modelling, texturing, and composition skills (when, if fact, they don’t).

It reminds me of my brother-in-law, who loves basketball with a passion. He joined the basketball team in highschool, but, unfortunately, it was a christian environment. As a result, he recieved only positive feedback on his playing skills (from coaches, parents, etc.), and gradually began to consider a career in professional basketball. Years later, out in the “real world”, he came to the disturbing realization that he’s simply not that good. Obviously, he could beat me very easily in a game of one-on-one, but he’ll never play professionally.

Moral of the story? Sometimes people need to hear the truth, and false praise is never a good idea. That doesn’t mean you need to bash their work mercilessly, but you could at least follow the 1-2-1 rule (this currently doesn’t seem to be happening that often on these forums). I hope people level with me when I post my first work.

#2

Though I can see what you are saying, Hookflash, I really disagree. There are different ways to grow in your art. Some forums use your method-- picking over every aspect of an image to improve it. This is one form of constructive criticism. Then there is our way: encouragement of the artist, answering questions, giving tips. We don’t do rigerous examinations, usually. But we do improve from the support of the community. I know I have, anyway. :slight_smile:

#3

when you post something that you as an artist want criticized constructively, the best bet is to ask for a 1 2 1…and you will get all of the criticism you want. My children come to me all the time with pictures here at home that they have drawn. I would hate to extinguish that spark by criticizing them. They learn their lessons when we sit down together at the kitchen table and I give them their tutorials on what I know about art and the creation of. They mimic and learn. The rest of the time they produce pics just to share their visions with their ole daddy and the refridgerator. :+1:

#4

Hookflash, I understand your point of view but most of the time, constructive criticism isn’t that useful. I’ve no problems seeing the hundreds of things that are wrong with my pictures. Do I need someone to tell me I’m not an artist and that my pictures suck? no. I know that already. But I have fun making them and it’s more fun if I can share them with other people.

And if you think you need some criticism to progress, just ask for 121.

What I love about this forum is the fact that you can see all this art from people with different levels from newbie to expert. I hope it stays that way.

#5

Ok, I suppose I can see where constructive criticism might not be helpful for someone who just sees their art as a hobby. However, showering them with praise is not helpful either. Lying to someone in order to improve their confidence can be very harmful in the long run, regardless of your good intentions (In the case of my brother-in-law, he spent years pursuing a dream that could never be fulfilled).

Also, constructive criticism isn’t always meant to help only the artist. There are many lurkers on these forums (such as myself, for the most part) who might benefit from seeing an image critiqued. On the other hand, seeing an image recieve an unjustified amount of praise may just distort their view of art.

But, in the end, it’s entirely up to you. Considering that the general consensus seems to be “contructive criticism is bad”, I will just keep my mouth shut unless praise is warranted.

#6

I dont lie when I make my assessments of a piece…I find the good in the piece for sure…and there normally is good in a piece somewhere…

  1. If I don’t have something nice to say I don’t say it about a piece
  2. I give criticism if I am asked for 121
  3. I also give my praise warranted on what I have seen taht particular artist create and know to some degree their level of work.

A new user cannot be expected to produce the level of work Pixolator has produced…so you cannot judge a work on that level. But if Pixolator produced a piece of work that looked like something I produced, it would be obvious that he needed to work on it knowing his current levels of mastery…If I critique everyone on a level playing field I would use the best of the best to set the level for my criteria and then they would be judged unfairly and probably take great offense to some degree. I know I would…If you want to be critqued simply ask for the 1 2 1 rule…and everyone will gladly do so. Growth comes to many by mimicing and copying the works and techniques of others…just as my hand was somewhat trained to draw by tracing pictures as a child. soon with repitition you don’t need to copy and can reproduce the image yourself…and that is done with zscripts to some degree. And after a while you take that learned image and technique and put your own creativity and imagination to it to make it your own and so the growth begins…I am not saying to not critique, this little discussion on my part is just how I go about saying what I say on threads and about others works. have a god one

#7

i agree a little bit and disagree.
a exsample would be telling some one there pic looked like Sh*t or Not good but then again you may have hurt some little kids fealing because it was made by a poor 8 year old little girl
now she has this complex and no longer will post any picture in ZBC and you have sent her off crying to Bed.
now that this little girl is upset as She goes off the school and can’t focus on her work all thats in her mind is her fealing being hurt by a complaint about her picture soooo now that she can’t focus her grades start going bad and she flunks school and has to goto summer school , over what? because some one said her pic wasn’t Good.

#8

there should be a 121 rule be nice tell me whats wrong and a knock out rule called (123) tell me whats wrong let me have it,
Like your pic is pretty rotten i could do better with ms paint,
to me it looks like chicken scratch.

#9

You know E.Z…I have seen some pretty interesting ‘chicken scratch’. Here is a beautiful piece I found that you are welcome to use as an alpha for ZBrush. Zummy isn’t it. :smiley:

#10

cool thank.
here some ‘chicken scratch’
or was that ‘Rooster scratch’

#11

For my part, I agree with Hookflash.
At first, sorry for my english.
Next, sorry to use my first post to constructively criticize :wink: .
I liked Zbrush so I bought it a month ago.
At the begining I liked too the cool atmosphere of ZBC, essentially because I only read the comments on the excellent gallery of Zbrush pictures. But as I took the time to read all the new posts I started to feel discomfort. I was a little afraid by the virulence of slosh’s answer to what I think is a very correct and objective post (that I did not myself before because of my english skill) and the good impression I had at first with Zbrush was a little tempered by the excessive amount of praise and the excessive level of moderation in its official forum.

I won’t be hypocrite. I like when people compliments my work (not so often ! :smiley: ). Like codexus I don’t always feel the need of 121 because I am generally objective enough to see what is wrong and what is correct and if I post here (not had the time yet to do a valuable Zwork) it will be more to share than being critized. However, why should I expect a sane regard when the guy who draws a pink dot on a sphere is praised as a god ? You system is OK to hobbyists and beginners (that’s a good point) but it may “put to flight” more advanced users who consider Zbrush as a professional tool.

I feel sad when my work is criticized but if I do a Sht I expect the guy in front of me to explain me why he feels it’s a Sht and how to improve my work.
I understand all your points of view concerning the need of encouragement against critic but you need both, encouragement and critics, 50/50.
I see works posted here by people who will never improve their skill although I am pretty sure they could a lot just because you are too kind. You don’t help them that way. Even if they post just for fun, if they can learn something before leaving the forum, their next work will just be better.

Some other forums have a section to beginners/sharing and another one to advanced users/121.
Perhaps, the way ZBC works is better, perhaps it is not, but I’d like at least to see some improvement in some user’s pictures and I don’t see that. I wish I had a better english and Zbruh skill (still learning) to participate more and help them (or at least if they have excessive ambition trying to explain them that they need help :smiley: . Much harder!) but if excessive kindness is the only rule accepted here, in no case I will be able to help them or being seriously helped when needed.

#12

I’m new to graphics software and I know that I can use all the help I can get.

btw That guy looks like he’d be pretty henpecked.
:slight_smile:

#13

I think the lack of understanding of what constructive critisim actually means is the problem .Its hard to give any critical comments on a work or anything without it sounding harsh and uninformed to be totally informed we must also understand the context in with the art is made . From my own experience it is more benifical to gives ways to improve the work .In institutions constructive critism is used to frequently and should be more subjective . Focus on developments area’s are more recieved than any critisim constructive or not and balance is the only way and sometimes the artist likes the work and changing elements are not an option not everyone going to like what u do but if u enjoy your art and your passion for it is strong don’t worry critism and praise are easy its harder to get a balance where comments and suggestions are taken in and then revealed back through your work growth comes through mastakes made and practise and the understanding of new media BRAVEN ps: art is cool what ever it is …

#14

I must say that everyone has a valid point, but we are all different and so we react differently to situations. To say that praise is given for the sake of praise only is not quite true. I have recieved hints and ideas from several members since becoming a member of this forum, and I think I have improved a little in the period I have been here. I for one will say what I think is good and if I think something can be improved I will point it out, and suggest ways of doing so.
So far the forum has been very successful employing this method, and the members who can show improvement from their first post to now are too many to mention.
If it works, why fix it. It is always better to live with the devil that you know, than the one you do not.

#15

Brovic said:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> but if excessive kindness is the only rule accepted here, in no case I will be able to help them or being seriously helped when needed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You’re still free to post your opinion, there is no rule to say that you can’t express your honest opinion on any artwork on the forum. If you think that you can help some people on the forum with your comments, then don’t keep them for yourself.

However, I think it’s better to do it positively rather than negatively. For example, “I think, you could improve that by doing that” or “Why not try that?” are much nicer way to criticize than “This part is damn ugly”. Suggesting a way to improve the picture is more useful than just criticizing it.

But that doesn’t mean that it’s forbiden to write negative comments. As long as you act in civilized way you’re free to express yourself.

#16

You can’t imagine the time it takes me to read and especially write in english (translator, etc…).
In fact I sacrified some time I needed to do corrections on a work and the customer was a little in trouble (but hey, nobody’s perfect and he bothers me too) but when I bought Zbrush I also bought a support and I expect it to work in a professional way, such as a professionaly working forum.

Codexus you said :
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> You’re still free to post your opinion, there is no rule to say that you can’t express your honest opinion on any artwork on the forum. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to contradict you but I had the time to read Slosh’s and Hanuman’s replies to Hookflash’s post and although the first was a little “hard” and the second a little “caustic”, in no way I think none of them should have been removed because they were expressing their opinions in an enough “civilized way” according to me. “Confrontation” is not “agression” and everybody needs confrontation to grow up.

Concerning the definition of what a constructive criticism is, I am preciselly speaking from the point of view of an independant infographist, not an artist’s one. I don’t care Art with a big “A”, I am rather interested in “art”, in the sense of “artisanal”, the way you do, model, etc…

As a professional, evolving, acquiring knowledge, is not a hobby, a single pleasure : that’s a question of “survival”.
Consider that : a few years ago a 3D graphist had to spend time placing correctly lights in a scene to have a correct illumination, now with global illumination and radiosity quite anybody can render a good scene.
A few years ago modeling people or particular forms was a must. With the improvment of poser and other tools (like Zbrush :smiley: ) quite anybody can have an acceptable render that would take hours if not days before.
A few years ago there weren’t schools to learn 3D and hightech imagery. People like me had to learn by themselves in books and then in the borning internet. Now there are a lot of people that come in the “labor market”, that have learnt professional technics with professional teachers and if I want to compete with them I still must grow in skill and knowledge.

I don’t say ZBC is not acting in that way. There are great tutorials and good advices but when a professional cames here and sees a cube with a hole in it praised as the Blessed Virgin, he wonders if he is in the good forum. (OK, bad example, a cube with a hole in it is a feat with Zbrush considering it has not boolean features :smiley: ).

I just mean, raising the standard will certainly kill nobody and will give a best public image of Zbrush.
And please, be more flexible with the moderation, it is much too excessive, I think.
There is new blood brought with the 1.5 version and you must take account of that.

#17

I have not been around this forum long and I am mostly self taught. I’ve been looking at the last years worth of posts (not all of them LOL) recently and I can see that a lot of the posters have indeed improved their skill. Partly due to advice they were given. But what I did notice Dee Vee is that although I agree with you I don’t think your work has improved. I’ve seen some wonderfully drawn painting done quite some time ago that are vastly better drawn than what you are doing now. I don’t mean any offence by this it is just an observation. Maybe your earlier work was not done in ZBrush.

Anyway it is always good to get another opinion you don’t have to agree with it.

#18

MrFrog, Respectfully I would like to submit that your comments (that you are free to make) are exactly what I was talking about.

quote ““But what I did notice Dee Vee is that although I agree with you I don’t think your work has improved””

I will not wage war with you on this subject. but merely point out that you did/said is exactly what I said earlier would be the problem with the critiques. As sugared coated as you telling DeeVee what you just did in open is rude. It carried an edge with it and is an attack in my honest opinion. That message had it had the need to be said should have been sent in private as opposed to the open forum. For a person that just said they have went over a year’s worth of postings though not all ( or words to that affect) I must say you learned very little in any reading of the threads that you browsed. The first thing I learned on this wonderful forum was to get along with 99 percent of the other participants and not to alienate myself. Look at your comment, Mr.Frog…what was there to be gained constructively from that comment? You tell me…

#19

Sorry I didn’t mean to ofend anyone. I didn’t read all the posts I was mainly just scanning quickly all the images that have been posted over a year and how various people have progressed. There is a lot of diversity.

What I said to Dee Vee was meant to be a compliment as I just noticed his paintings that he was doing a while ago.They were very good, but they don’t look the same now. It’s just how it looks. They seemed so different to the usual faces and things that it stood out. I only mentioned it because he posted in this thread and it was my honest opinion. I thought maybe he was using a different painting program then maybe photoshop or something. I was just comparing some of the recent paintings that do seem to be made with z brush tools. I thought that they must be hard to use.

I thought your posts have come a long way from what I remember too. In fact I can see that the longer you have been aroung the better you get. maybe this is not the place for a 1 two 1. I’m getting off the track here. maybe i’ve had too many beers tonight LOL.

#20

I really think it comes down to taste. What one person hates, another loves. I know the Vancouver museum spent a 1/4 million on a big blue dot on a white canvas. Personally I wouldn’t use it to line a bird cage… someone … well more than one someone obviously loved it. ~shrugs~ Some like Picasso… personally I think he should have chopped off his fingers… not his ear.

If someone seriously wants to improve their art by getting feedback all they have to do is ask. Everyone here is more than willing to give tips and suggestions.

They also encourage people to participate. So what if they don’t produce art that pleases everyone. It is impossible to please everyone. There’s bound to be someone who likes it… or something about it. Just as there will people who hate it.

I’ve had tons of encouragement… and I’m not going to run off and proclaim myself artist of the year. I know better…

Anyway, I don’t see anything wrong with being nice to someone. If you can’t find anything at all you like in a picture… move on. You’re bound to find something right up your alley. There is such diversity here. Very few people do the same thing. Something new is right around the corner.