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ARTISTS COMMENTS PLEASE

CAN YOU HELP!!!

I did a few images for a book called ‘Digital Fantasy painting’. I just received an email asking for comments for a paper about ‘said’ subject? Would anyone here like to help by making a few comments on the subject? I would really like to hear the thoughts of ZSteve, Cneo, Lonnie, KenB, Rhom, Saint, Olivier, but anyone with any experience in the subject please add your thoughts.

The email request goes like this:

I am writing a paper on fantasy art and I would greatly appreciate any thoughts on the subject, specifically on how low fantasy art (especially digital fantasy) is on the ‘ladder of respect’. i.e. Fine Art is classed as a very ‘elite’ craft… but comics & graphic novels, while clearly displaying incredible talents never escape the chains of there genre.

So, have you experienced any difficulties in terms of trying to validate your work to others, what are your opinions on the ‘higher’ forms of art and what changes have you witnessed/observed over the course of your lives.

I would love to hear as much or as little as you have to say on the subject.

Thank you

See what you can come up with for me please and post it here. You must be willing to have your comments added to the paper as quotes and full credit will be given.

Best regards,

Glen

Glen, I am not an artist that you would recognize by any means and I am relatively new to the digital art scene,(my main medium up till now has been oils) but I have been around 56 years and I have seen a lot of shifts regarding “art”.

Firstly, the so called “higher art” doesn’t really exist any more from what I can see. To me this “higher art” is the old classics. Today even in oil paintings, and water colours, you can find every type of style and content in any art gallery. Fantasy included.

Art is art, no matter how it is generated, whether it be via computer or by the brush and stroke by hand. The outcome of the product is what counts. There are of course different reason’s for creating art. And if the reason is to create fantasy art for either commercial use of personal pleasure, then the skills to create “good” art are what matters. I really dislike some of the fantasy art I have seen, I find it disturbing but yet I can appreciate the effort and skill it took for the artist to create it. And of course there is a place for everything these days. My sons when they were young preferred to have the Xmen posters all over their room rather than the Mona Lisa. My younger son spent hours trying to emulate the artists work in comic books as he considered this to be great art.

The bottom line as I see it, is always changing and it generally takes the general public considerable time to catch up. As for respect, well, that depends where you are looking for it. Stuffy old art purists are not going to embrace digital art anytime too soon. But you will get respect from those who can appreciate your work. People are different and so is art. It is good that way.

D.L. Smith
aka Northstarr of
Northstarr Design

I’d have to agree with North Star.
I’ve been drawing amd painting most of my 40 years. I used to do wildlife art and animal portraiture. then I got into photography. I’ve had people try to explain to me the definition of “Fine Art”, and all I can come up with is that the definition changes with the times. What Leonardo Da Vinci did in his time is now considered “Fine Art” but if he was working now it would be considered “Illustration”. But as far as I can determine, the only difference, realistically, is that he did the work a long time ago and so now it’s considered “Fine Art”. Art, “Fine” or not is what you make of it. It’s there to inspire emotions or to make one think, orZ

I’d have to agree with Northstarr.
I’ve been drawing amd painting most of my 40 years. I used to do wildlife art and animal portraiture. then I got into photography. I’ve had people try to explain to me the definition of “Fine Art”, and all I can come up with is that the definition changes with the times. What Leonardo Da Vinci did in his time is now considered “Fine Art” but if he was working now it would be considered “Illustration”. But as far as I can determine, the only difference, realistically, is that he did the work a long time ago and so now it’s considered “Fine Art”. Art, “Fine” or not is what you make of it. It’s there to inspire emotions or to make one think, or to just give a person a break from the real world. That’s it… My two cents.
My Web Site
Sorry for the double post, something odd going on in the forum…

[message withdrawn]

Glen,

my opinion, and quite possibly mine alone, is that art isn’t to be judged on technical terms only, but also on context and on intention.

I explain myself: there are landscapes or nudes I’ve seen, that are technically immaculate, but convey no sentiments at all. I’ve seen crude, almost childish paintings and sculptures, by my admittedly favourite surrealists, which however are touching and sweet, or violent and provoking.

I am subjective, naturally, in saying this, and this is the reason why my opinion was called for.

More to the point now: I don’t consider fantasy as a category of works that can all be dubbed “artistic” and be done with. This is a major point, and is valid for all art movements. So to begin with, some fantasy works are art, some are plain crap. I think we can safely say that there is a very satisfying number of very talented in form fantsy artists- even in the digital medium.

Of the works of fantasy that are technically advanced enough, I have to exclude as non-artistic:

  1. soft-porn (which seems to be a great majority) and with this I mean scantily-clad women in various degrees of sexual tension, for hardly an apparent reason.

  2. cliche themes (forgive my text coding, I don’t have a french accent on my keyboard map). Such as: oh my gods, lord of the rings is such an inspiration! especially now that the movie has killed most of the fairy-tale quality of it, and we can directly copy the holywoodian characters. Or such as: “the disgusting troll is threatening this beautiful virgin, but see, this great barbarian, or this zombie, or this snake-person is saving her”

  3. themes that are in general too indiferent,except to show some nude skin, or some entrails inside a cyborg, or really even “the great battle of Whats-its-name-I-just-made-it-up-and-it’s-so-boring”.

There IS a number of sources of inspiration that I consider inferior, such as fantasy novels by TSR, although I’ve read them in large quantities. They are entertaining, and some seriously talented authors have been involved in their making, but the meaning of art inspired by these is apparent only to nerdy people like myself: “oh my gods! see how good this rendition of The Dark Queen Of Krynn is!! what? you haven’t ever read Dragonlance, and instead prefer to read philosophy and books that are hinting there is a real world out there?”.

By this last comment, I am trying to hint that when fantasy works are intended for a select few, then fantasy artists can’t complain about their art being thought inferior thematically.

If I may, I have to comment that the 21st century doesn’t appreciate art in general, and this is a huge topic. People are disoriented and frustrated as to what art to consider superior, and are only certain that they as artists, they should consider the Old Masters and a few select famous contemporary creators.

And I say should, because painting and sculpture have long ago ceased to be the entertaining medium it once was, and indeed, isn’t the preferred medium in exchanging ideas on philosophy, society and life. Of course, this might mean that some of the disoriented people take a liking to fantasy art, but then again think how unflattering this is, when other groups of the same disoriented people like a blunt landscape, or a modernist painting not because they genuinely feel something about it, but because they’ve been told so by peers or by the social news columns.

All in all, I have come to find it both useless and absurd to try to convince people that the art form (and art medium, let’s not forget the prejudice against digital art) that you “serve” is valid and not inferior to the older and tested through time art movements. Fantasy has as good potential as any inspirational source to make a good theme for a painting. Fantasy art is a quite recognized art movement, with worthy technical, sentimental and intellectual representatives. It’s not a disgrace to paint fantasy. Instead, it’s a disgrace to wish to force people to admit that any zombie, or any warhammer battle you paint, is an artistic masterpiece. If they don’t like it, you might be recognized post mortem. If you do wish recognition here and now, start painting nude women. I find that at least this branch of fantasy art is popular, and can’t complain. Pardon me? Did I hear someone say that the field is cramming with people doing exactly this, and there’s no room for me?

My point exactly. Do you feel such a strong need to do exactly what hundreds of artists worldwide are doing? I strongly doubt you can’t do better.

Concluding my opinionated monologue, phrased as well as I could but structured as loosely as to be naturally flowing and true to tamperament, I have to ask creators, myself included, to stop complaining when their chosen, and I repeat chosen, hobby or profession isn’t looked up to. Do whatever you may to have this opinion changed, but I strongly suggest the audience won’t have a change of character through manifestos, but might instead, through a breath-taking turn of artists towards more innovative, mature and sentimentally-rich creations.
I quote myself: “I consider art that induces emotion - either positive or negative - as useful art.”

Since the email was directed personally to you, Glen and is fairly specific, I should think we ought to say things like: “I find/don’t find people who say my work is crap, but otherwise I’m satisfied/dissatisfied with the recognition I get, and think/don’t think my art is inferior, and indeed have/haven’t seen attacks against fantasy digital art”

but nonetheless, I hope you find this soulful mini-lecture of mine useful, my friend. written with all the love I could muster, I hope it shows. And thank you for listing me among artists despite the fact I’m not sure I am one.

I’m also intrigued to see what others here will reply to your pledge.

hello! i think i have to desagree, and 'm going to try to explain in english:for me, as an illustrator, with about an hundred of covers, mainly in fantasy, as soon as you accept the NARRATIVE rule of game, you’re gaing out of what is usually called “fine art”; let me explain: when Chardin paint fruits in a bowl, he don’t have any interest for the pears, or apples; when in advertising i paint some, i try to have interest in the appearance, and appeal, of these damned fruits;that’s why it’s always said that paintings speak only of painting, and illustrators of everything else; another example is the sense of humor; lots of illustrator’s pictures are fun (Norman Rockwell, Crumb …) but you never laugh in Louvres (or go fast see a psychiatr!)in fantasy, i think Frazetta at the top, incredible drawing, I LOVE this artist, but don’t see in any sense him in another museum than illustration museum; it’s not the same FIELD, I think; but there is not one field up, and one down,they are just “differents”; not sure to be understable, snif!!! friendly M.

Nothing more to add. Marcel has said everything I would have both eloquently and, coming from a master illustrator as he is, with far more authority.

I’d like to chime in with a perspective from ‘middle America’. The ‘art’ world is just wierd. They will honor and pay enormous sums of money for excrement (literally and figuratively), and then throw their own excrement (figuratively, if not literally) at excellent art.

This attitude can also be seen to one degree or another at all levels. In my first sketching class in college, I mentioned my appreciation of Frank Frazetta’s art, and my teacher reacted as if I had committed the greatest faux pas possible: using the word ‘art’ in conjunction with the name ‘Frazetta’.

At that time, comic book artists were regarded with even more disdain than was Frazetta, yet Warhol created his ‘comic book’ art, and was worshipped as an icon. (Oh, and nevermind that Warhol had assistants creating some of the stuff for him.)

It seems to be a fact of life that a relatively small group controls what is allowed to rise to the top. Critics, be they art, literary, or theater critics, seem to wield enormous power in determining what succeeds or is accepted. However, truly excellent art can still break free of obscurity. The genre of fantasy and science fiction often dooms a work of art to relative obscurity, but books like Dune and The Lord of the Rings have broken free over time. I bought and read a lot of comics and graphic novels in my teens and twenties. I had to go to little ‘hole in the wall’ comic shops to find some of them. Just a couple of months ago I went into a book-music-movie-game superstore in the biggest mall in Texas and they were selling some of the best graphic novels by Frank Miller and Alan Moore from 15-20 years ago. Eventually, truly great stuff will rise to the top and receive its due, but much that is very good is still lost to obscurity.

My father and I ran a screen printing and sign shop operation back in the mid 70s and early 80s before he sold out and went back out into the outdoor advertising world of billboards.

During that time the only fantasy art type stuff I ever saw asked for, was for "catchy" license plates or the occasional "long hair" coming by to have some Frazetta styled image put onto the side of his van or truck or on a recreational vehicle's wheel cover. That type of artwork was normally farmed out to a friend of ours that dealt with fine airbrush art. It appeared that the businesses that came to us only wanted some cute little icon or logo for their uses at best. In my opinion it appeared or seemed to appear that people that wanted that type of work created were in fact the long hairs and high schoolers like myself at the time. You would have been severely labeled for having such work put onto a "respectable" vehicle. These days I seem to see very little mural works on vans, but I do tend to see more fantasy type works produced for billboards and for commercials. No offense intended for our older viewing crowds, but I think they set the attitudes in the free world for what is considered fine art. I think as the people of my generation rapidly take over businesses and replace our mothers and fathers and grandparents in the professional world that the attitudes towards the digital medium is changing. Computers are still intimidating to many older people I believe in general. So would the work being produced on these machines. When I speak to my inlaws about art, they tend to want to speak of the museums type artists. The digital field of art is just not in their vocabulary. It's merely something someone does on a toy to make pretty pictures. The old ways of "real art" in their world requires the tangible tools of the trade, ie paint, brushes and clay and canvasses. When I see a commercial on tv advertising for a new hairspray or tennis shoe and they use a dragon or hoard of zombies or snow beasts in their presentation, I get all bubbly inside. I know that another wall and barrier is coming down between the generations. I think the popularity of the gaming world has helped to topple some of the barriers that have been placed up surrounding the digital medium. I also think that the rapid speed at which fantasy type art or any art for that matter that can be produced on the digital canvas versus a traditional oil canvas is another stigma of the field. The masters who set the standards took years to produce some pieces, and some even life times. However today those type of works can be produced in a minute fraction of the time via the computer. Maybe that is what is also what devalues the respect that the digital art deserves? Time equals quality and craftsmanship possibly? I wonder though if during the time of the great artists of our times and before, if their artworks were considered to be a fad or pop art?

Kindest of regards,
Ron Harris
[email protected]

Now THIS is the kind of discussion that is very hard to resist for this aged rock-abuser, so here are my thoughts on the subject…There have been some very interestng observations made, and I agree with most of them. To me the thing that makes one thing art, and another pointless ‘eye candy’ is the intent, even more than the execution. I am also major Frazetta fan, have many books on his work, and have original prints from the 1970’s hanging in my studio…What makes his work as fantasy art stand out is what I consider a major constituent of successful art. Emotion IS important, but that alone does not make it art to me…After all, if I see a dead animal lying in the road, I might have an emotional response, but that response is not to whip a frame around it. That emotion is valid but does not make it art…
One thing Frank had was something I try to get in every piece I do. It’s the sense that (a)Something has happened just before, and (b)Something is ABOUT to happen…In other words there is a frozen moment in time, and a story is contained in what is unseen. It’s like watching a movie in your head a frame at a time.

And I believe if something is dashed off with no thought, or as a result of boredom, or ‘doodling’, although it may be in the moment entertaining, it has no long-lasting message or content. Crp in, Crp out, to paraphrase the computer programming aphorism. There has to be a human, actually INVOLVED with the process of creation, accidents or serendipity have their place but it is a small role compared to visualization, some form of planning, and an INTENT…

Fantasy art is art, or is not.

It depends on many factors, including preparation, imagination, skill, concept, and also having a point in the first place. Pencil, paint, airbrush, computer, what does it matter? The medium not only is NOT the message, but it pales in significance in the face of all the power a PREPARED artist can bring to an idea.

So what does any of this mean? Not a whole lot, except to point out the diversity of humans once again…But I think I agree with Bill that Marcel has made some very salient points, and although I agree with Ron that more fantasy art is appearing in the media, I see this as the co-opting of cultural realities that the ad industry has always done in an effort to boost sales, and it doesn’t mean any more or less acceptance of Fantasy in art or anywhere else.

To sum up, you’ll be a long time dead, so enjoy yourself now, and if you like what you do, don’t worry if anyone likes it, a point I think Christo made quite well. After all the canned lunch meat known as Spam has not only achieved immortality as email junk, but the object itself is now a collectors item…

The world as Art! :rolleyes:

Hi all.

I thought I would add my two cents worth. I am an artist, an engineer and an entrepeneur and have seen these particular issues time and time again concerning everything from designs to business practices. the ‘right’ way etc.

1-" specifically on how low fantasy art (especially digital fantasy) is on the ‘ladder of respect’. "

Fantasy art is low on the ladders that think it is crap and high on the ladders that think its beautiful.

Einstein was right you know -everything is relative to the observer.
The arts impression or value is not absolute.

A persons reaction to a work of art tells us about the person - not the art.

2 -" So, have you experienced any difficulties in terms of trying to validate your work to others,"

Again if your work is low on their ladder you can't validate it - by definition.

3- "what are your opinions on the ‘higher’ forms of art a

Again - “higher” forms is a relative statement and I think you will find that artists find their true happiness working in the area they consider the “higher” form.

4-" what changes have you witnessed/observed over the course of your lives"

Technology.
I think it is easier now for an artist to get his vision out there. The ability to undo mistakes, and have technical aspects such as lightning handled automatically, etc. has given more artist the ability to express themselves.

Access to different types of art.

It is now very easy to get a ton of images in any areas of art. When I was a kid, libraries had the mainstream stuff but it was virtually impossible to see other types in quantities.

Access to artists and support groups and people who share your ‘ladder of respect’.

Forums like this do a great service to artists and helps to eliminate that sense of isolation artists find so common. Now an individual can get the tutoring that only a select few had just a few years ago.

I think only an artist can truly judge their own work. For me the judgement is simple - has the work been about what I am trying to show, or abilities I am testing or what I think will get the most positive attention.
If I feel the potential observers opinion has affected the art, then I will not be happy with it, as it is their art, not mine.

I figure they should do their own! :wink:

Thanks again to everyone on this Forum. It really has helped me in a positive way knowing that others see this activity (art and zbrushing!) as a fun aspect of life!

This came in from Writer/reveiwer/artist Neil Lucock…

An Analysis of Fantasy Art’s Position in Society
by
Neil Lucock

Much of the problem comes from preconceptions and these tend to be reinforced by the fantasy genre itself. I’ll have to make a few generalisations to discuss the subject.

Fine art tends to be appreciated by people who consider themselves “cultured”. Fine art lovers are typically rich and educated. Fine art has stood the test of time. It is a generally a “safe bet” for anyone to say that they like the works of Albrect Durer or Turner. Anyone who wants to jump on an art bandwagon can claim to like it without anyone contradicting them about their tastes. Rich cultured people might not know a lot about art, but they don’t want to be contradicted by their social inferiors.

Fantasy art is often commercial art. As such, it appears on the covers of novels bought by a (non-mainstream) class of people. I think that fantasy and SF novels are often bought by teenagers and generally non-conforming types (people who have original thoughts in their heads). As such, it does not receive any status by being associated with rich educated people. Teenage males are often attracted by a cover depicting semi-naked women, one of their great interests. Most types of art do not want to be associated with teenage males.
I’m never sure about the validity of such soft porn book covers. A good cover can entice you to pick the book up, a well done cover will show you something about the content. Sometimes that’s all you need to make a sale. I bought Samuel R Delaney’s novel Triton because of the starship on the front. Nothing at all to do with the story inside, but it attracted me for long enough to read the back, to see what it was about. Fantasy book covers are driven by marketing needs. The Author Patrick Tilley is a graphic artist and he asked his publisher if he could do his own book covers, as he did not like what was being put around his work. He produced something that was rejected. The marketing people said that their downmarket covers sold his books to the kind of person who would enjoy them. Putting a better cover on would harm sales, as most of his books were sold in railway stations, airports and particularly, in newagents. They knew his market better than he did. They knew who bought his books and where they bought them.
That’s not to say that fine art isn’t commercial too. People like DG Rossetti would spend months or years doing a painting. Many fine art painters were independently wealthy, they could not have done it for a living, but most fine art was done to order. Look how expensive William Morris’s stuff was, the only people who could afford his wallpapers and prints were the very rich. The reason people liked Rossetti, Morris et al is that they were the good artists whose work was endorsed by their rich standards-setting clients. Someone was willing to pay for that standard of detail. The artist who did the Victorian Pears Soap posters was a decent artist, but could not afford to spend a day just doing a square inch of canvas. The book cover artist has to quickly produce work that will sell the book to its intended market, make a prospective buyer’s eyes fall on it, make them want to know more. If you can get someone to pick it off the shelf, you are halfway to a sale. Mass market commercial art has never had the status of custom work.
Many fine art pictures are actually fantasy. There is no bias against the fantasy genre as such. When Tennyson wrote The Lady Of Shallott, nearly everyone during the next 30 years went out and painted her. Waterhouse painted scenes from Greek mythology (and the Lady of Shallott), Sir Edward Burn-Jones (nearly everything he did was fantastical) and Rossetti (Prosperine), Millais (another Lady of Shallott amongst his collection of work) were all fine fantasy artists. Perhaps in another 90 years people will be collecting Frank Frazetta originals for museums.

Perhaps we are not talking about commercial art when we discuss fantasy art? Many artists draw for their own reasons, myself included. We want to show what’s in our heads and our art is a form of self-expression. Unfortunately, not everyone expresses themselves well and fantasy art is rarely original, even when well done. How may times have you seen someone re-interpret a scene from Lord of the Rings or similar? Imitation is okay, being inspired by a book or a movie is reasonable, but How often does “fantasy art” serve as nothing more than a vehicle for soft porn? Draw a nude woman, give her a sword and you have done a fantasy scene. Perhaps that’s the second thing wrong with fantasy art that gives it a poor image. It attracts people who are not fantasy artists.

Women historically did not fight. Men fought to protect women and their homes, kids and possessions (which often included women). Women stayed at home. No one would let his wife or daughter go off to war. They were not strong enough to protect themselves from their own comrades in arms, never mind standing as a warrior. They were not trained for it, either physically or psychologically. Even the Spartans didn’t put their women into battle. So, we see Brenda the Berserker battling with a monster and, as usual, she’s in her underwear. Even if the art is technically good, what does it say about the artist who created the picture? Perhaps the artist wanted to express his admiration, to show that he is okay with women as fighters (not impossible, Ripley (Signourney Weaver) from the movie Alien is a decent example of the female fighting type), but the more likely conclusion is that they wanted an excuse to draw women wearing minimal underwear.
Many fantasy worlds don’t have a realistic internal economy. (Look at the works of Barbara Hambly for worlds that definitely do have a decent background). Fantasy has to be internally consistant with the society shown. If you show what appears to be a dark ages scene, people presume that it is our historical Dark Ages. They make assumptions about what they are seeing unless you tell them otherwise. So how does that relate to Fantasy? The society a person was in determined what a person could do or could not do. The Dark Ages King HAD to believe in the gods, he was raised to do so. Modern ideas like freedom of religious expression did not work in that setting. Express doubt about the gods and you’d be blamed for the lettuce wilting or the fishing boats going missing. Women can be equal today because we have tried to remove the things in society that prevented them from being equal. A “woman’s place is in the home” used to be true, as that was the only place where they were safe from other men. Just dropping modern women into a medieval/dark ages setting does not make it feel true and “suspension of disbelief” is something all artists have to deal with. If something does not appear true, people will reject it. In Viking times, a sword was worth as much as a farm. (Chromed swords did not exist until recently, so bright metal swords are out too.) Someone walking around with a sword and armour was rich. So, this woman has a good sword (probably too heavy for her to use) but can’t afford clothes? It doesn’t ring true. Why is she in her underwear? People who live outdoors wear waterproofs and hats. Even in warm countries people want to keep the sun off their skin and wear clothes. Look at Arabs or Vietnamese people as good examples. (Brenda Berserker can’t wear her armour today as she’s got sunburn). Fantasy is often badly thought out. Even if you allow magic and elves, the consequences of their presence should be felt throughout your world. The consequences of living outdoors (sunburn) should still be there.

The artist doing a graphic novel or comic is a specialised commercial artist. Some, like Stan Lee, are recognised as artists in their own rights. Roy Lichenstein showed the fine art value of this kind of work (the cartoon picture of the jet fighter shooting something, I can’t recall the title). Most comic artists are skilled at producing work to a commercial deadline. It’s just another version of the book cover art. There’s nothing wrong with it, people buy the art. The artist makes a living from it. If the fine art world looks down its nose at it, who gives a damn? They only say it’s no good because they want you to spend £500 (in one go) on one of “their” artists instead of you paying £5 for each graphic novel/comic and buying 100 of them. Critics are selling their writing, the rich people who read their criticisms want to have their tastes confirmed.
Imagine, instead of art, we are selling cars. The car salesman wants you to buy a BMW rather than a Ford. The magazines read by people who can afford BMWs will not criticize Fords, they don’t even mention them. (The fine art critic does not even consider a graphic novel as art) What status does the fellow who builds his own car have (or publishes his own style of artwork)? Amongst people who appreciate the work he’s done, very high status. Even if you don’t like what he’s created. He’s done it for himself. How does the BMW driver see it?. He wouldn’t even consider it. No one will recognise his “good taste”, but they will recognise a BMW if he buys one. It’s exactly the same with pictures.

So, what should we look for in fantasy (or any other) art? Any picture has two elements. The subject and the execution. I’ve discussed the choice of subject above. How well it’s done is open to interpretation. There’s the ability to draw, to compose, to select colours that are pleasing. The mastery of your tools, (either brushes, pencils or programs). Commercial artists tend to go out of business if they do not have these abilities. The discipline imposed by deadlines improves artists. If you don’t have to finish it to a standard, why bother? After all, you are doing it for youself.

The artist has to make something that provokes a reaction in the viewer. Artists often tell a story within a picture, either suggesting what has happened in the scene or the colours and subject used might suggest a feeling. Amateur artists often do not have the technical skills to express what they are trying to say in their art. Good art moves the viewer; either to appreciate the skills used, the composition, the subject or the feeling. Poor art does not convice the viewer that the artist had anything to say. Often then don’t have anything to say. The essential work of an artist is to show a view of reality and to provoke a reaction in the viewer. To interpret a scene means to put your own feelings or message into it. That’s the difference between an artist and a camera.

“Validation” implies that you want others to accept that what you do is art and, as such, deserves their consideration. Some people like fine art (modern art or whatever) because of the status they get from it. Their friends and associates like it, no one will upset the boat. If they spend £500 on a picture, it MUST be good. I really don’t care what their reasons for buying whatever they buy are, as long as they are happy with their picture.
For me, validation means that someone will buy it. There’s no more sincere form of saying “you are a good artist” than putting your hand in your wallet. Finding the person to buy it might be a problem, but the WWW has allowed many artists to reach a wider public. Do you think that the proportion of people with talent has increased, or that we are seeing more art and that, in the past, the rubbish would have never been seen? Good artists do not seek validation, they know that their stuff is good, know that others, once it has been brought to their attention, will like it. If you made your pictures for your own internal reasons (Learning to paint is a good one too) then why are you bothered about what others think? Good art, whether it is written, drawn or created on a PC, takes talent. Recognising talent is harder than just going into a shop and buying anything labeled “fine art” or anything over 100 years old (it’s old so it must be good). Discerning buyers can recognise talent, irrespective of the subject.
Fantasy art contains elements of composition, story telling, technical ability and choice of subject. People who do not have these skills still create art, “inspired by such and such a book or movie…” and these people bring the fantasy art genre into disrepute, particularly when the publish their work on-line.
If you want to publish stuff on-line, that’s fine. You are paying for it to be there. If you are good, people will come to see it. It is pointless to argue about tastes in art, as they depend so much on other factors. If you like fantasy art, if it inspires you, then by all means put your pictures where others can see them. If they criticise your work, listen to them, decide if they are making a valid point or just saying that they don’t like dragons and Brenda Berserker in her underwear. If they don’t, you’ll have to consider your own reasons why you did yet another naked fantasy picture. Just remember, anyone can criticise, few can do. If you are publishing art on-line, you are already ahead of those that don’t bother.

Interesting discussion to say the least.

I think one should treat the response in the conext of the original question as ‘Bidiot’ did.

I have been part of several international panels on this in different mediums the most recent ‘The Death of Animation’ last year. And as someone mentioned earlier on behalf of Einstein, it does depend on your personal point of view.

I’ve been an artist, illustrator, animator and a complete computer geek since computers were the size of rooms, Pong was not yet a game, and a personal computer did not exist. I have been around Charlie White III, David Kimble, Olivia DeBeradinis (I never spell this right), even H.R. Geiger to name a few. All work in different mediums, with different content, from technical to fanciful. The only way I can see to compare any of their works and rate them would be by the passion they have for what they do. However I’m unaware of any passion registering technology.

The description many artists express to me in varying ways of what makes what they do art and the views of others observing these works are rarely the same. This has always been the issue throughout history. It’s what keeps the debate going over the centuries.

Oh yeah, Frazetta is mentioned always. He found the magic. The ability to paint a frame from the fantasy movie in his head without losing any motion, blur, or detail. Someday, maybe…

Am I a medium ? :slight_smile: http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=000879

Fantasy = Art ? So What ?
Fantasy = imagination = pleasure !
That is the only rule :slight_smile:
Pilou

My half penny! I personally have the opinion as many others have already mentioned that art of whatever type is in the eyes of the beholder. It is one mans trash is another mans treasure, regardless to the class the work of art is placed in. How does one compare a Grandma Moses with one of the Dutch Masters? yet each have their ardent followers. People are also somewhat like sheep. Let me explain, if someone whose opinion they respect favor a particular item they will more likely try their utmost to like it also, the reverse is also relevant.
In the long run if you live your life waiting on others to like you or what you do you are in for a very disappointing life indeed.

Any art does tell the story, an illustration only describes it. That is, by my opinion, the main difference.
(The old masters in fact painted fantasy motives of their times, and there is a lot of non-art pieces even by famous painters). And I am afraid, that in any discussion about art and non-art people mostly talk in oxymorons. Fantasy art cannot be considered fine-art by definition, because its ONLY purpose is to illustrate. However, there can be fine-art with fantasy motive (there used to be ONLY fantasy motives in art in the past).

I believe digital media is a new hope for art, not its undertaker. It only needs time to release its full potential, because it is more demanding (and more rewarding).

THE ART MUST BE REBORN, because it has been dead for so long…

Daniel Sandner wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Any art does tell the story, an illustration only describes it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Fantasy art cannot be considered fine-art by definition, because its ONLY purpose is to illustrate <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Daniel, could you elaborate on these points please?

Cheers.

“Any art does tell the story, an illustration only describes it.”

I mean, true art contains “the story” itself, illustration reflects main ideas from somewhere else (i.e. a book, a movie).
The message(the story) makes the difference between art and non-art (it TRANSCENDS THE THEME of an artwork).

“Fantasy art cannot be considered fine-art by definition, because its ONLY purpose is to illustrate”

It depends of course on your perception of the term “fantasy art”. Michelangelo did “fantasy art” all his life. Now, by the term fantasy art is ment illustrational addendum to some other media. So, by the definition, fantasy art IS NOT fine-art any more. It DOES NOT TRANSCEND given theme.