ZBrushCentral

Art Skill?

Community
#21

Kircho, I don’t remember saying practice without methodology, nor that we need others validation? It’s nice to be appreciated though LOL!

Is it possible to learn without a planned approach?

Of course it is, though less effeciently than otherwise might be the case.

I disagree that we must know why we do what we do ‘before’ we can learn, concious thought is only part of the process.

I doubt many start without some idea (however vague) of what they want to do or, conversly, have a strict plan of steps they want to take and in what order. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle-ground and are led by the enjoyment of what we are doing.

Passion for what we do is the driving force and that should be our own, experience brings knowledge (whether concious or ‘habitual’), practice refines our aim until we hit our targets more and more often.

Creativity is, in my opinion, impossible to define. It is a vague concept that seems to be entirely subjective.

#22

Kircho when I say “information” I don’t just mean what you know but also what you’ve experienced.
When you watch a movie, read a book or look at a picture you are having an experience you otherwise would not have had, this information cannot be gained simply by observing things and the notion that there is an answer to be gained I don’t believe to be true.
Knowing what love is may be a satisfying thing but it cannot compare to actually loving something, the experience is what people are after.

Human beings will always want to experience things like love and hate without putting themselves in danger (emotional or otherwise) and so some art has become a sort of fake reality for us to take information from, information that is to used in the real world.

Moweddp sorry if this is getting a little off topic or the topic is becoming broader than you intended, we’re just having fun.

Picture is looking good btw.

#23

Mukkinese -

"..if you practice your skill it will improve -simple as that." - yes you did, and you repeat it in your most recent post. Notice also that I specify - " consciencous and exact methodology ." "...What one person sees as 'creative' leaves another cold," [color=Black]and " if you are lucky you will find others who enjoy the same things and appreciate your 'creativity'." You have implied it and not noticed, most likely because you have left your concpet formation to habit and your non-concept - " creativity ". Yes the process is less efficient - slower - frustrating - incomplete/innacurate - ones ability to recall and retain the information is limited - one cannot reach any great level of proffesionalism. I take pleasure from overcomming all of these issues - any other assertion, as to what joy is, is a rationalisation and should be thrown out. "Why?", is the most important question - since if we do not objectively identify the action as valuable/non-valuable to our lives - we are wasting our tme, and our motivation and work habbits will suffer accordingly. That most people do not have a proper reason and do not hold a consciencious exact methodology is not a qualifier for your methods correctness. Again, joy is to be had from the success of achievment - achievment of inefficiancy as I describe it above is nothing to be joyfull about. Lastly, let me just say, that I have been through the whole process of just leaving it to habit. I was able to produce [nice works](http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=22506), but the process was always tedious, pragmatic and strangely unrewarding in the end - nor were my efforts consistent and somehow all my works looked very similar - same mistakes, similar features and structure etc. - . My joy, when it did come, was only superficial,with basis in others opinions and assertions or some silly rationalisation. In the end I became so frustrated I gave it up all together - a midlife-sculpting-crisis :D - I solved the problem just recently. As I said and will clarify here again - yes there are subconcious processes in any actione one takes - and automatisation is an important step, but it is wise to deligate to these processes only simplistic and repatative tasks - not the whole theory of translating 3d volume into 3d models - or even half of it - and most definently not before you have formed it explcitly. I hope you are still younge like me and will realise the truth in this - for it applies to all areas of ones life - and if not, well you have the next life to figure it out again :) Kircho "Passion for what we do is the driving force and that should be our own, experience brings knowledge (whether concious or 'habitual'), practice refines our aim until we hit our targets more and more often." [color=DimGray][color=Red]HOLLLAAA :eek: this is way off - Knowledge is only explicit and conceptual - it may be automatised but not before it is conceptualised. Emotions, alike, cannot be used as standards for action unless they are understood explicitly - if any other course is taken devestation will ensue.
#24

man, this thread got philosophical fast :laughing:

hey Moweddp, looks like you are already doing pretty well with the sculpting :+1:

as for anatomy and learning how to draw, there are some good books that are not too expensive by Jack Hamm, Andrew Loomis and others … you can probably view a couple of the Loomis books online

when I was a teenager I learned a lot just by analyzing and trying to copy illustrations that I liked (mostly science fiction and fantasy illos) … lines, ways of shading, color schemes, how to simplify

as for school, sure, talk with a counselor about the art plus computers question

#25

very interesting words and a cool thread here…

my 2 cents…

zbrush 2 is a totally different prog/tool than it was when I discovered it with version 1. Made some kewl pics (I thought, but in retrospect I was wrong …lol) in version 1. Others made actually kewl pics. Then we got a better tool on down the line…ie version 2…night and day…

The difference is huge…no comparison…like a carpenter would have had a hand saw in version 1 and was able to build a decent house…sound and stable but a tedious labor of love to create…then comes version 2, the electric power saw…a more formidable tool…now comparitively you can build your dream home in a fraction of the time…you still need to know the basics to achieve your goal and know how to use that tool…but if you study and skill yourself you will be able to build your dream home…(redneck analogy here)…

Art…hmmm it’s art to the people who view it and have same interests and like it…or else…as was said in so many words leaves the viewer cold…beauty is in the eye fo the beholder…and the clique of viewers denotes what the majority wants and it is now art…now if other peoples come along at a later date and view the works of the “non artist” that was not praised because of not fitting into the mainstream, and that new group finds the works pleasing they then become art…

For the personal artist that does it for the passion of doing it…for whatever reason… they don’t care if you or I like the work or not…that is not their reason for doing it…

Practice can make perfect…or at least better…if something is not totally anatomically correct, then it becomes “stylized” …but to me that is ok…someone at some point will come up with a new term to describe a person’s work if it doesn’t fit…

I have been investing gazzillllions of hours since I first found Zbrush in 2001 and still feel like I have barely begun to scratch the surface of this tool…so far to go…Monkeys do not have that diligence…

I zbrush because I feel the compulsion to create…and if not with z then with pencil and paper or in writing fiction…why do it? hellifino, other than it feels good to create…and something within makes me wanna do it…

Model, texture, sculpt, paint, work on making alphas, lighting a scene…the list goes on…each of those areas can be specialized, can take forever to learn, can be rewarding, and used in unison can make one helluva zbrush pic…

Anyone can draw…too many books out there prove that…step by step how to books…bought a few to better help me teach my children some of the basics…at least works that I like…basic shapes and lines and you have a head…translate that into zbrush and you have a 3d model…that is the allure for me also with zbrush…the power to rapidly create something from nothingness…

have fun, study and practice and a simple 3d sphere with some holes punched into it will soon take proper shape and become a head …tweak it and it will become a better head…practice and it will become a good head…add proper eyes and teeth and it will become a very good head…texture it up and use the right materials and lighting and it will be a d@mned fine head…do it again and again and again …and you will be able to do most anything in Zbrush…make a body…add a background…and keep the zgods happy and do somethign a little different from everyone else and you can become a z deity and make the top row and hopefully get noticed in the “business” , make a name for yourself and make some $$$$$$$$$ and live happily ever after :slight_smile:

ok there was some humor in that but you hopefully get what I am saying…

Though I have an art background via the family business growing up…I am currently an out of work starving artist like most everyone else I know…Mine is a simple layman’s point of view…Just thought I would add my opinion since they are free to give and share…

good luck and practice practice practice…but foremost have fun and enjoy what you do…no matter what it is…

Merry Christmas All!!!

Ron
[email protected]

#26

Practice improves skill - it is that simple.

There is nothing in this statement that argues for or against the use of a methodology.

I’m sorry, your second point isn’t clear. Are you saying I implied that we need the validation of others? If so then that is incorrect, as I expanded in my second post; it is nice to have the appreciation of others - not neccessary.

Your interpretation of motivation is interesting, but we will have to disagree on the point of concious knowledge of our motivations being a pre-requisite to learning.

I also believe (whether you think it wise or not) many, if not most people, proceed on a basis of emotion rather than logic;- we tend to do what we enjoy and avoid what we don’t, with little concious regard to logic.

While it may be true that unconcious or emotional motivation may lead us into problems from time to time, we are not Vulcuns. To approach every part of life as an excercise in logic is beyond the patience or needs of most. Too much hard work.

#27

Mukkinese I’m sorry you did’nt pick up on what I was trying to say, but after your last post I decided to stop any further attempt at explanation.

These words, of your last post specifically, are so dangerous - so VERY putrid, that I’m physically shaken as I write this. I’m afriad I can’t and won’t continue any further dilaogue with you. ( Lookup the meaning of putrid its not there simply as a means to inflemation)

Kircho

#28

Breathe in, Breathe out.

Mukkinese, you taste very like solipsist. The irony of the Vulcan jibe will probably not have escaped Kircho.

Kircho, you’re not alone, I very much admire your willingness to explore meaning.

#29

“ZBrush, or any 3d program is just a tool.”
“I agree, 3D programs are just tools.”
“So I agree 100%, Z-brush is just another “tool” I use to do my art with.”
“I believe that ZBrush is a tool”

ZBrush is more than this, it’s a language, an approach, a methodology, a beacon, it’s probably deeper than you are. There is something very elemental about the way ZBrush exposes complexity to be the combination of primative objects and transformations which are themselves initialized as simple operations on basic data structures. ZBrush is a tool but it is not just a tool.

#30

LOL!

Kircho, I really think you are taking all this too seriously and reading far more into my comments than is there.

My ideas are hardly challenging nor do they subvert reason. This isn’t revolution I’m suggesting, in fact the advice I have given here is both liberal and non-specific.

Antimorph, can anything (even ourselves) truly be known? Few people give such things much thought and why should they? Most of us would rather just get on with life.

The ‘Vulcan’ comment was not directed at anyone nor meant as a ‘jibe’; - that is your interpretation of it, not mine.

#31

“Most of us would rather just get on with life.”

I recognize that this position is unassailable. I withdraw.

#32

I wasn’t sure I wanted to post in this thread but i think i’d like to make a point and get back to what Moweddp was asking.

I think what he’s calling “art skill” is just skill with traditional mediums like pencil/paper, paint, clay, wood.

I definately agree that traditional art skills translate well into the digital relm quite well. I’ve heard it said that the computer is just an “expensive paintbrush”, which I agree.

The reason the ability to draw well, paint well, sculpt well are traits studios like to see is that it implies a level of artistic competance. Its the fastest way to judge talent/ability/competence.

Drawing, painting, sculpting hones ones ability to “see” the world. Your also developing your fine motor skills which i think 80% of ppl use a tablet in zbrush, or should. The ability to really understand what your looking at is a skill often overlooked and takes a life time to develop. Just as its said “to really know something, is to teach it” i’d say to really understand something visually would be to reproduce it. This is where things like life drawing, painting and sculpting the world around you can only improve the work you create in the computer when you use these same skills of visual analysis.

Someone who can draw or sculpt well should pick up zbrush rather quickly.

#33

love threads like this. just a matter of time until someone gets fired up (although, i don’t think this thread has reached the point for someone to be upset).

#34

spaz8, thank you :wink:

as for “learning to see”: last evening I stood in a parking lot for 5 or 10 minutes … maybe people thought I was a derelict or in a trance, but I was looking at a scene, branches against a subtly colored sunset, analyzing the elements and thinking how to paint something like that

a cool moment in my teenage years was when my Mom checked out “My Name is Asher Lev” by Chaim Potok for me to read … there is a scene when young Asher is sitting in someone’s office, looking at the raindrops flowing down the window, thinking how to draw them, and I thought “wow, there are other people like me” (a big fan of rain trails on car windows and colored lights on wet streets)

Moweddp, I’m starting to think that YES you should learn to draw reasonably well, at least so that you can do concept sketches

don’t reinvent the wheel – see how other people have translated 3d into 2d drawings and paintings – learn some tricks and elements from them – don’t worry about making exact copies, think of it more as doing cover versions of songs

if you know how to maintain your computer, how to install software, and how to learn software apps by reading manuals or the help system or Googling, you probably don’t need to be in the computer track at school

it’s good that you have a career goal as an organizing principle :+1:

but of course, don’t limit yourself to learning just what you need for monsters and environments, etc. – learn more than you need, according to your own tastes – spend some time looking at galleries that are outside of your main interests – maybe you can bring some new flavors to the kitchen

however the official training turns out, remember that you can and should add your own studies throughout life, including now – don’t turn it into drudgery, though :wink:

and … don’t neglect your social and physical health :wink:

#35

Havran:

man, this thread got philosophical fast :lol:
Don’t see whats so amusing about it? Perhaps you think that philosophy is a useless invention of man, that serves no other purpose then to complexify, beyond understanding, any given situation it is applied to?

1stbrother :

someone gets fired up (although, i don’t think this thread has reached the point for someone to be upset).
If by “fired up” you are implying - an irrational outburst in the midst for a battle of supremacey, you are wrong to have applied it here.

There is a battle however, the battle is for the right and proper ideas.Because it is waged on publicly accesible media, the battle becomes of great importance: since it is with such simple beginnings that conclusions form and propogate in to culture - of life - of education.

Furthermore, this is a thread that coveres a very important and fundumental qestion to the artist - scientist - philosopher - What is knowledge and what is the proper way to attain it[color=DimGray].

For these reasons, and the fact that ideas are the life-blood of human action, I take ideas very seriously. The fact that you have no yet realised the errors that have been commited, and how destructive they are, is exactly what I was trying to avoid. - I suggest you think again. Kircho
#36

oh now, our tenth-grader was asking questions about craft … no need to drag memes and cosmoconceptions in at this stage

#37

moweddp…

Keep going kid, you’re starting out great. Don’t let some of the pontificators scare you off. nothing, and I mean nothing, will do more to advance you than practice. Learn to draw, definately, but also learn the technology. For pure artistic release, drawing skills can lay your foundation. For business, my Bosses don’t pay six figure incomes to guys like me because I can draw. They want people that can learn the new programs and streamline processes. Sorry, but that’s the reality of it.

Kircho, , lighten up Dude, for someone that’s only Twenty One (and with all the vast life experience that brings), you’ve got allot of anger issues. The only lesson I see you’ve taught our young friend here, is that ‘He who shouts the loudest, wins’.

Life’s the journey man, NOT the destination.

#38

just for the record I’m not angry - JPalmer you applied the wrong archetype ,“Dude”. Secondly I suggest you read - actually read it - the progression of this thread. Your conclusion - “The only lesson I see you’ve taught our young friend here, is that 'He who shouts the loudest, wins.” - is false.

Kircho

#39

Orient yourself on results. If you see a piece of work you like, go look who made it, contact him/her and I am sure you will get an answer which is worth a lot to you. Judge advice against results, not by words.

Good luck!
Lemo

#40

I was starting to think that Kircho was a little full of himself, but I guess I should give him credit for his sense of humor …