Wings- mesh and texturing issues...help me obi wan kenobi yer my only hope....

[Ron Harris]

this is correspondence I sent to a friend I am working with on a model of a wing that will be animated...I am just working the details and texture using zbrush. I will post all 3 images I sent him as well...If anyone has any ideas on this I sure would appreciate the input....driving me crazy for the past couple of weeks.

here is the email I sent describing the situation....

Played all last night till daylight with the wing....I have to edge loop the model before I can divide that....the edge loop does not give me enough geometry to properly texture and put the bumps and goodies onto the wings. When I pick the model back up in Projection Master in zbrush all the texture work is stretched and warped and definitely not crisp..

On the image I am attaching with the 4 different wings....the top left wing is the wing imported normal.

the bottom left is with the Edgeloop added at the bottom of the wing...I have had to add the edgeloop before Dividing the mesh because the Top Right image is what happens if I dont. The wing membrane comes loose from the bones of the wing like curtains on a curtain rod...

The bottom right depicts with the edgeloop and divided to 97K or so...

The bottom edge of the wing shows the edgelooping more so...but the mesh is so different than that of the rest of the wing that when the textures I paint are applied they are not holding the texture properly....that may have something to do with the UV mapping or something with the texture and mesh....

so the problem seems to be at the moment,

1. How can the mesh be Evenly divided to be able to accept all the little bumps and ridges on the wings without distorting?

2. How or what can be done in order for the model to accept the textures and maintain their integrity.

I am also attaching a pic of the wing that was painted in place after it was taken out of edit mode...

I am assuming that type of clarity is wanted in the wing. The alpha work is very fine....I had subdivided the model up to almost 400K polys....I still received the same results.

zbrush also doesn't seem to like triangular mesh. It does a conversion when it's imported into Z, but the mesh at that point doesn't seem to be uniform enough to do what you are wanting with it. I will post this and the two images also on the zbrush forums and see if anyone has any other solutions to all this. I will do so after I get your permission, since it's your project etc....

So that/this is where I am at with it at the moment.

I await your reply.
kind regards,
Ron

ps...he sent me his permission to discuss this with yall ....


if you need me to post more shots I can....or further explain something further I will....Thnx for your help everyone..mucho appreciated....

The urgency is that I really need to try to finish this up during this weekend. I have to be with a friend at the hospital on Monday...he is having a malignancy removed from his colon...and the dealine on this project as of right now is Wednesday. So time is short. My brain has petered out and I really need the help...thnx
Ron

[Escape]

Hi Ron,

I'm no expert but I may be able to help or atleast give some ideas to think about.

First the original model is made up of Tri's...major issue as Z kinda hates these!

What software did this mesh originate from? For a quick fix he may be able to use a MeshSmooth Modifier to fix this but that would Quadruple the poly count on the base mesh...but it's way faster then redoing the topology.

It could also be an export issue from the original software. I know Max will make everything Tri's unless you tell it to export only Quads.

As for the texture issues...1-1 pixol-pixel ratio? What size is your texture map...might be to small causing it to try to cover alot of polys with only a few pixels which will cause a really bad result.

On a side note...just something to think about...will this wing be a major area of focus or something off in the distance. If off in the distance your level of detail should be fine as is. If up close I'd look into what I said up above.

I would say you did an awesome job on your end of the deal...The problem is comming from the base mesh your working with.

Hope this helps,
Escape

[Ron Harris]

thnx Escape...

The original mesh is coming from C4d to me in as a .obj from the modeler....then I was working my zbrush fun over it, then it is going to the rigger/animator who is using maya...

I am currently using a texture of 4096 x 4096

I will have the director look at this thread and also point his c4d and maya people towards it as well.

Ron

ps.... the wing will be in a closeup shot...so the texture has to be as perfect as possible or as close to as I can get it..

[Escape]

Hi Ron,

With a texture of 4096x4096 you should have pleanty of pixels to cover your polys...might be a 1-1 ratio of pixol-pixel, but I'd place my bet that it's a Tri issue. Dividing Tri's a ton a times creates alot of problems for the work your trying to accomplish.

You said it's going to the rigger/animator as well so I'll asume it's for a game or demo reel? If so they should keep the base mesh as is and create a all quad mesh for you... so you can properly create a highly detailed normal/displacement map from Z. Then it could be used on the low poly Tri model as seen in the link below.

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/sho...ht=necromancer

Escape

[Escape]

Ron,

Here's another good thread

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/sho...ht=pixol+pixel

Hope this helps a bit,
Escape

[Escape]

Ron,

Now you got me thinking as I looked more closely at the images you have provided...Specifically the one you divided without the edge loops(curtain rod effect)...It seems that either the verticies are not welded or that you have 2 meshes there...what I mean is that there is 2 seperate meshes exported as 1 scene = 1 .obj.

I'd bet on the Verts not being welded though...but who know's I've been up way to long...lol.

Escape

[Ron Harris]

yeah, you are right I think...I suspected that about something not being welded...what I also had to do was hide mesh and delete the hidden...

Is it possible for me to fix this in Zbrush, ie the welding? or will they have to do that on their end if its the problem?

btw..loved the links....

Was working on the original import with working with the texture, the problem I see is that though I am getting some detail on the low poly model even after projection master work, I still have the low poly blocky-ness of the membranes of the wing...

I read a thread by Aurick also last night talking about some tips and tricks....using the material in the color scheme basically with the model....below is the part of the thread I saved to my notes...

As filament9 has said, materials are native to ZBrush. Every 3D app has its own
types of materials -- known as Shaders in some -- and they aren't compatible with one
another. Some programs use reflection maps, specularity maps and other such things. Other
programs don't. So it would be very hard to ever make materials directly exportable -- and
even if it was accomplished they would have to be done through a dialog box that lets you
pick the particular program that you plan to use the material in.
However, there are ways that ZBrush allows you to transfer colors that are generated by your
material onto the texture. For one thing, Projection Master allows you to "Pick Shaded",
which transfers all visible color to the texture regardless of whether it's arrived at by
painting or through materials.
Also, Projection Master will let you pick up materials as a part of the texture. This is
awesome while you are working within ZBrush, but the material channel won't export with the
texture for use in other programs. However, you can unwrap the texture onto the canvas and
then use the MRGBZGrabber with Shaded RGB turned on to capture the material-generated color
as a standard texture.
A bump map can easily be generated by clicking the Texture:Make Alpha button and then saving
the resulting Alpha from that palette. For things like reflection maps, you can easily paint
them yourself by unwrapping the texutre, creating a new layer, and then using pure white
paint the reflective areas in. A moderately low RGB Intensity in the Draw palette will let
you have considerable control over how much reflection you want. More white means more
reflectivity. When you have your map painted over the texture, turn off the texture layer --
resulting in a pure, black and white map. Now you can use the MRGBZGrabber (with Auto Crop
OFF) to pick up your reflection map for use by any program that will use it.

some good tips.... I appreciate your brain power on this.....I have lost alot of sleep due to this fun little project. I have been seeing the sun come up at the end of every night the past couple of weeks or so.....a project that I thought would be a piece of cake to do.....(slapping my self silly now...lol)

your help is being very helpful...hopefully I will be able to hit their deadline.

thank you
Ron
catfishmn@aol.com

and Mike I see you out here lurking about..lol....please feel free to chime in...

[Ron Harris]

here is the low poly original mesh I was just speaking about that is now on my canvas....and the texture I have created this time around...
ron

ps, if anyone is watching tv right now, on the AMC channel (american movie classics....the Devil's Rain is starting... ) lol insomniacs will watch any and everything....

[Escape]

Ron,

Insomniacs....lol. Now you've done it made me look at the clock...yup I'm up way to late...good thing my wife isn't up too...LMAO.

Back to the topic/issue at hand before I crash for a few hrs.

Welding is possible in Z but at a very low tollerance .01. What you do is Import your chosen .obj then under the tools menu go to Import...click it and more options appear (merge/add/tri2quad/weld)...slide the weld all the way up to .01 then click Import and draw on your screen, then subD to see if it welded those points together or not. If this doesn't fix it for you then they will have to redo their mesh. Either way they should have checked this before sending it to you. I would let them know as during rigging/animation this could cause some trouble for them aswell...It would be like one of those out-takes/bloopers reels you see at the end of Shriek where his head moves and his eyes stay right there in the same place...although that was a linked objects problem and this is a weld problem...lol

I don't think the tri2quad slider will help you very much in this instance considering how low of a poly count you are starting with...but it never hurts to try it.

As for your texture issue...I think you have done the absolute best anyone could be expected to do seeing as that you are working with a all Tri mesh that isn't completely welded together.

I'd say your best bet at this point in the game would be to fake it...by that I mean just use RGB and materials no alphas and paint the details you want on the wing...Alphas won't turn out well due to the geometry being composed up of all tris and nothing will smooth out right either...Zapplink and PS would be your best bet...

Hope I helped a bit and didn't ramble on to much...lol. I'll check back in a few hrs after some sleep and see what else I can think up.

Escape

[Ron Harris]

Thank you so very much. I have posted for them 3 low poly ztl's and 3 low poly wing .obj's and pointed them and the director toward this thread. Those may work for them or may not....I will have to wait till I get up as well to see.

I don't think this is for a game though...forgot to mention that....I don't know how long the film is supposed to be, but I have read the basic storyline and it looks pretty interesting...and that was why I have tried to put alot into it on my part...and it's also a great chance to learn a little something along the way...

If anyone else also has any input, comments or suggestions for anything on this thread, please feel free to chime in....it's all appreciated.

night night,
Ron
catfishmn@aol.com

[Ron Harris]

ok 625am...growlies....and I see the sun.....

well while waiting to hear back etc....I thought I would try to copy the original modelers wing with zspheres...and this is the result...had to wrap my brain around it.....ouch.....will work more on the model when I get back up hopefully...but it was only a about 1600 polys at subd 2.....it didnt look back at that, and then bumped it up to level 6 which was alot smoother....gotta detail the wing bones and the membrane....hope it ends up as a useable mesh....here is the result of that experimenting...

thnx
Ron
catfishmn@aol.com

the large brown is the wing from the original model...all the other and smaller colored is my new mesh....C and C and anything is/will be appreciated..
thnx
rh



now I am going to bed as my wife looks over my shoulder and growwwwwls at me...

[Jason Belec]

Looks pretty interesting Ron.

Are you sure thes are problems...

1. How can the mesh be Evenly divided to be able to accept all the little bumps and ridges on the wings without distorting?

2. How or what can be done in order for the model to accept the textures and maintain their integrity.

As for 1), just divide the mesh until you have enough for the detail you want. Then you can use bump or normal to get the extra. As for distortion, not 100% sure what you mean in this case, but a surface should distort, especially on such a mesh for animation - skin stretches, flows over bones and muscle.

As 2) again not totally clear from what I'm reading here, but if you use Projection Master in small areas and jump back and forth to PS, you should be able to get something pretty good quickly. Just remember not to try and do it al at once.

If you don't want a texture to distort as you distort the object, the only thing I can think of is to project from a camera inthe app of choice and the camera is always between you/viewer and the object. I don't think that's really what you want.

How about posting 3-4 frames of the animation showing what you think is not correct reperesentation??

[Escape]

Hi Ron,

"now I am going to bed as my wife looks over my shoulder and growwwwwls at me... "

LOL...I barely escaped the same from my wife this morning also...but that's why they call me Escape...lmao.

Any news from the people your working with? Let me know how it's going and I'll keep thinking too.

Escape

[billrobertson42]

I think wings3d is the answer for wing problem here. Or if you have another modeller that lets you edit edges then use that. (remember zbrush only ever edits points )

Bring it into wings. Get rid of those nasty tris, and then start adding geometry until you have a good mess of evenly spaced quads that zbrush will love when it comes time to get down and dirty with it. You don't have to make it uber dense at this stage, it's the even spacing that you're interested in. Then bring it back into zbrush and go to town.

Good luck.

[Ron Harris]

Hey Bill, I don't know wings well enough...wish I did....

See the original I had to add edge loops just to be able to divide the mesh. If I divided it without adding the edge loop, the wing membrane would seperate from the wing bones. In doing this that edgeloop that was created on the edge of the wing would not divide enough to take the work I did with it in PM.

Now what I did on one of the trials was to take the wing and just paint color on it in PM, rather than deforming the mesh so it looked alright, but was not at that realistic quality the deformations would have given in PM had I been able to use that option.

I have no frames from the movie to show. I am just doing my little thing and sending it to someone else to do the movie. Whilst I await hearing from my contact, I have went ahead and began making a whole new wing using their wing as a model...

I laid down a pic of that wing on a layer and then modeled on another layer. my hope is to make two zsphere models (as I have been doing in the pic below)...and use the MM tool to join them making a more uniform model I can work with and send them.

The bones on the pic below still have alot of tweaking to do, but it is getting closer to what I want. The wing membrane is thin and the bones should lay in there nicely (fingers crossed).....

I used a model someone posted a while ago (Super Average Human)...please forgive me for not putting your name in the model file...but thnx.... But I used it as a maquette of sorts for this test....

thank you all for helping me try to sort this out.....Jason, Bill and Escape

the model on the last image I posted I ditched and started over....

The one below depicts the membrane and bones I am working on at present...

thnx

Ron
catfishmn@aol.com



if nothing else this will be a great modeling lesson for me....always had trouble making wings......(thnx Jason for your tuts etc...mucho appreciated.)