MM'ed object editing tip.

[Monkeyfarm]

So I’ve spent most of the day trying to figure out multi-markers, and more specifically how to use them to be able to edit objects once they are part of the Multi-marker object. At least that’s what I thought!

Turns out the big thing that was hanging me up was thinking about the MM in the Tools pallet as an object. It’s not! It’s nothing more than a grouping tool. I was trying and trying to figure out how to be able to edit a MM object at the poly level, when all I could do was move the individual parts around, unless I created a polymesh, which introduced all kinds of problem of how to edit one piece without deforming the other piece(s).

So, instead of just figuring out for myself, I’ll try to pass on some of what I figured out so that it may help other people. I know there are a few MM posts in the quicklinks, but I didn’t find any that addressed this issue. Maybe I missed them… Would have saved me a bunch of time! ***61514;

Here’s the scenario, you have a model in mind that is going to be composed of more than one “piece”. In addition to the pieces being just stuck to each other (for example in a mechanical fashion like a bolt on an hard object) you want them to have some relationship to each other. For example, horns coming out of a character’s head, being able to edit the folds of skin around the eye once the eye has been placed so you have some reference, etc.

I wanted to be able to figure out how to accomplish this level of editing while keeping everything in the editable 3D state, rather than trying to tweak stuff once it was 2.5D. so that I had the freedom to try different poses, etc. later on.

Here’s a really simple example. I tried recording a zscript, but it flaked out once I tried to edit the MM object and did not play back correctly. So I’ll have to rely on screenshots and words.

Step one is to create your set of objects and marker each one (M). In this example I want the cylinder to look like it was slammed into the sphere and the sphere deformed from the insertion.
http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1042412022hfx.jpg

Step two is choose the MM tool from the tool pallet. Once you select the tool, do a ctrl-n to clear the layer. Place your MM on the canvas, and rotate the object to a good working position. Use the “reposition markers” button in the MM tool once you have exited out of the editing mode. You now have told the grouping tool to move the object’s markers into positions that match those represented in the MM. This is key!
http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1042412037apt.jpg

Now, make sure that the appropriate flags are set in the MM tool pallet. Most likely you will want to have at least tool and color checked if you are following this example.

If you checked [tool] in the MM pallet, choose any tool you want in the Tools pallet then press ctrl-n to clear the layer. Now assuming that you are in the default drag-rec stroke type, you will need to click on each of the markers in the document twice. Once to activate the tool, and again to place it on the canvas. You much click the object you are going to actually edit last!

Now enter edit mode, and deform your object using the other marked object as a reference. Here I just added a bunch of bumps. But the power I see here is the ability to create really fine adjustments to a face around the eyes, teeth, etc.
http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1042412048lxf.jpg


http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1042412058all.jpg

Once you are done editing, choose the MM tool you created the first time. Ctrl-n to clear the screen. Place the MM on the canvas and Voila! You now have an object that is the result of you editing that you can reposition to your heart’s content, or use over again, etc.

http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/zbc_uploads/user_image-1042412066ltx.jpg

Like I said, this is not earth shattering, and perhaps it becomes common knowledge after using ZB for a while, but for me figuring this out was key in getting an understanding about how I can use ZB. The fact that ZB seemed “limited” from my 3D modeling approach (what with stuff always having to be stuck to the background) I could not figure out how to do what I wanted to do. I think I’m starting to get it now.

Hope this was of some help to someone.

Later!

[Jaycephus]

Yes, this is excellent. I believe I have looked at all of the Multi-Marker tutorials and information, but I didn't figure this particular method out until recently. If I had had this tutorial available earlier, I would have figured this out immediatly! This explains a key practical usage of Multi-markers, whereas the other tutorials I have seen have been more general or focused on something else, and skipped over this particular point. Using the above steps, repeatedly, will allow you to edit each object in a multimarker object from many different viewpoints, which makes it easier to get eyelids shaped just right with respect to the eyeballs, for example.

BUT :ex:, I've been running into a problem that I still have not figured out. When placing and marking objects with MARKER:TOOL on, all markers are set to remember the last tool marked. So if I place three objects, head, left eye, and right eye, if I clear the layer and try to place the objects again with MARKER:TOOL on, the right eye tool will automatically be recalled and used at each position. It was my understanding that clicking on each marker twice would recall and place each different object, not three instances of the same object. I had this problem for ever, and have had to work without MARKER:TOOL set to ON.

:qu: Anyone know what I'm doing wrong, or if this is a known problem? Thanks,

EDIT: It doesn't happen consistently. I just restarted ZBrush, and worked with it doing the same thing, and I haven't had the problem yet. But I have had the problem occur many different times with multi-markers.

[Monkeyfarm]

Jay... I noticed this a few times as well. I think it may be a bug. One of those nasty non-reproducable types.

On the MM, it seems that the MM flags (tool, color, etc.) are applied at the time you "stamp" or recall the MM. They don't need to be set when you create an object. I had color off when I created and MM'd an object and then turned color on and recalled the object and it had the correct color.

[Jaycephus]

Right, methinks it is a bug as well.

And right, I believe, though I haven't read this in a manual, that the marker is stamped with all of the data, even if you have all of the options off. Where the options come into play is when recalling a tool. If you set them all on later, then it normally recalls perfectly the tool/color/size, etc. Except for sometimes when is goes 'buggy'. As I mentioned above, I started over with a fresh session of ZBrush, and I didn't have the mismatched tool problem this time, but after moving my head and eyes around, repositioning the markers, editing the head, etc., I suddenly ended up with a head that was off from the eyes. I was rotating the whole group in 90 degree increments to work on the MM objects from the front, left, and right, and after each reposition, I simply hit Reposition Markers. After several iterations, I suddenly had the head 90 degrees off of where the eyes were. It was easy to fix due to the fact that I had constrained my rotations to 90 degree increments, but still, it shouldn't have happened.

[Bonecradle]

Many thanks for this informative and concise tutorial.

This technique is probably one old hands take for granted but it is a real epiphany for anyone learning the ropes.

I just spent a hard afternoon trying to orientate two multimarked objects that did not have any obvious geometrical relationship in order to make them into a polymesh (from my experience, moving objects around in the multimarked tool is difficult at best). Although I didn't need to edit either, this method would have made short work of my troubles as it makes it much easier to move the objects about and to see them in relation to each other.

[ArfGraf]

Monkeyfarm,

That's a good bit of research on your part.

I had some bumpy road experiences with MultiMarkers at first until I figured out the Reposition button.

The objective you were trying to reach was similiar to a project I was working. In this instance I had a modeled head and then later on I created a hat tool.

Then I had the problem of the circumference of the head and the circumference of hat not matching close enough in shape.
Anyway was able to 'snapshot' the head and use it was a reference in remodeling the hat.

But what you have done here is a little more interesting technique wise.

When I initially decided to purchase Z-Brush I had a gut-feeling that I was on to a really innovative piece of software. So far I have not been wrong.

When other peoples on this board share their discoveries and techniques this further propels the software's innovative features and overall development.

My two cents worth ;)

[Rage]

Thanks for the tutorial, it was useful, though I still have a problem. I did the same thing you did, place the sphere, MM it, place cylinder, MM it, except for the cylinder i used Zcut instead of Zadd. The problem is the MM didn't capture it as Zcut, only Zadd. Anyone know what I did wrong?

[Bonecradle]

Hi Rage, I asked a similar question at one point.

Unfortunately zbrush does not include any truly boolean operations, i.e. zcut works only in 2.5D and not in 3D.

Pretty sure that's right - if not one of the boffins will put us right :)

[gummie]

Hey Rage, I believe it's been posted, Zbrush doesn't quite have true boolean functions added. It only works in 2.5d application.

--
edit: wow, beat me by 1 minute. :p

[Jaycephus]

Rage: what they said, and also, placing the multimarker should result in a sphere with a psuedo-boolean cut defined by the shape of the cylinder. I call it psuedo-boolean because ZSub and ZCut will not result in a true boolean subtraction, either in terms of the polygon structure of a live tool, or the pixol volume of dropped tools. You can cut pixols out of an object, but you can't cut all the way through the object, for example. You can fake this, though, with some of the other capabilities of ZBrush. If all you want is the pixols, then fine. But if you want to create a polymesh tool out of the multimarker object, then the resulting polymesh tool will consist of the sphere and a boolean-added cylinder, not a boolean-subtracted cylinder.

[Rage]

Ah I understand now. Thanks to everyone who replied :) though it is kind of disappointing. Hopefully in the future it will get true boolean abilities.

[melampo]

Hi Monkeyfarm, i've tried to follow the tutorial, but i'm stopped at this point:
".....If you checked [tool] in the MM pallet, choose any tool you want in the Tools pallet then press ctrl-n to clear the layer. Now assuming that you are in the default drag.........."
Can you explain again.....please, i'm very interesting to aquire a workflow traditional like in other software 3d.
Thanks Leo :qu: :qu:

[Monkeyfarm]

If you can tell me a little more about what part you are stuck on, I'd be happy to help.

[melampo]

At the step two when i clear and replaced the MM objects, i obtain the sphere and the cilinder have the same color.
I don't understand this step:"......Now, make sure that the appropriate flags are set in the MM tool pallet. Most likely you will want to have at least tool and color checked if you are following this example.
If you checked [tool] in the MM pallet, choose any tool you want in the Tools pallet then press ctrl-n to clear the layer. Now assuming that you are in the default drag-rec stroke type, you will need to click on each of the markers in the document twice. Once to activate the tool, and again to place it on the canvas. You much click the object you are going to actually edit last!"
By Leo

[boozy floozie]

I see said the blind man to the deaf dog :eek:

I feel like I'm reading some instructions for swedish flat pack furniture.

All goes fine up untill this point below.

"Once you are done editing, choose the MM tool you created the first time. Ctrl-n to clear the screen. Place the MM on the canvas and Voila! You now have an object that is the result of you editing that you can reposition to your heart’s content, or use over again, etc."

Question: Are you using this technique just as a guide for model alteration( this bit goes well) - or at the final step should the MM tool contain both the cylinder + the new deformed tool as a group?

When I go back to the 1st MM tool and pull out all I get is the original unaltered group.

"I don't know what to do and I'm always in the dark" :(

[Jaycephus]

melampo, have you figured out your problem yet?

The options in the Multimarkers Palette are on/off switches that control how the markers will respond if you use them. If you have all of the options on, clicking on the marker will recall all of the parameters used on the original object from which the marker was made. What makes this a little complicated is that several conditions will determine exactly what happens when you click on a marker.

If you have all of the Multimarker Palette options turned on, and you have a marker created from a red sphere, then clicking on the marker will do one of two things. If the same Sphere ztool is currently selected in the TOOL palette, then a red sphere of the same size and orientation as the original sphere will be created in the layer. If a different tool is selected in the TOOL palette, then clicking on the marker once will result in the original Sphere tool being selected in the TOOL palette, but nothing else will happen. Clicking a second time will place the sphere in the layer.

The step that you quoted is talking about placing all of your tools back into the layer by selecting the markers. If you don't have the TOOL 'flag' or option or parameter set to ON in the MULTIMARKER Palette, then you will have to manually select the correct tool in the TOOL palette before you place each tool in the layer. For example, if you have a head, left eyeball, and right eyeball, you will want to place each tool on the correct marker. And if you want to edit eyelids of the head tool in relation to the eyeball tools, you will need to place both eyeballs first, and then place the head, so that you can go into TRANSFORM:EDIT mode with the head tool.

In this explanation, "tool" and "model" and "ZTool" are the same thing.

[Jaycephus]

Boozy,

I have tested this, and the only thing that I can think of is that you are not pressing REPOSITION after making changes to the multimarker object.

I placed three objects, marking each one.

I cleared the layer.

I drew the multimarker object, went into TRANSFORM:EDIT mode, and shift-dragged to the side of the object to get it rotated in a side view.

I then TRANSFORM:EDIT:MOVEd one of the components a bit.

I exited TRANSFORM:EDIT mode, and the TOOLS:MODIFIERS:REPOSITION button became active.

I pressed the REPOSITION button.

Now I can use the Multimarker tool to draw the object with the change I have just made to the position of one of the components. It doesn't matter if you use the original MM tool, or a copy (clone) of it. At least in my testing, the change was present whether I used the base MM tool, or one of the copies of the MM tool. (I can understand why some tools are cloned automatically by ZBrush, but I don't know why the MM tool is.)

[mixel]

So we're pressing reposition every change we make to the model.. And when we rotate/move the model?

I ended up with a seriously deformed mish-mash of all of it's component parts.. I was okay until i tried rotating it to edit the back. :( (oh well it was a rubbish model anyway!)

[Frenchy Pilou]

Hi Jay
Cloning is the primordial thing to make in any situation ! So if you make some mistakes (I don't know noboby to make any errors :) you don't need of the classical "undo" (yes you can use it) but you will save in any circumstance ! Especially on the textures making ! (undo don't work)
I shall try your resume :)
It's very clear !
Pilou

[Jaycephus]

Yes, Frenchy,

I was wondering if there was any reason to clone the MM tool. Some tools can be edited so that they have a different effect. I just figured out that you could have a MM tool that uses the DragRect stroke, and one that uses a different stroke, and then you would just select the MM tool you wanted. I knew that this is how other brushes work, but I've never really used anything but the DragRect stroke with the MM tool.

But as far as having a different affect on how the MM object is placed, the different MM tools that might show up in the TOOL palette do not use 'different versions' of the multimarkers.

[boozy floozie]

Jaycephus , many thanks indeed for your reply. The results you describe of altering the position of a particular chosen object/tool in the MM tool and for that positional alteration to be included in the updated tool - that part indeed worked fine.

What I seem unable to reproduce is the ability to be able to edit the mesh of a chosen object/tool within a MM grouping, and for that alteration to be updated in the MM i.e to include the altered mesh.

I can edit a chosen object's mesh using Monkeyfarm's method by using the double clicked markers to recall the tools/objects, positions of elements of the original marked group etc - then use these recalled objects/tools as a guide to model the last and chosen recalled object to mesh edit.

Have I misunderstood i.e is Monkeyfarm's MM method used as a guide technique to alter a mesh or should I have an updated MM tool inclusive of the mesh altered object/tool?

[irenicus118]

I could never really understand how the MM tool worked because it wouldn't do what it did before.. I guess this was the bug you guys were talking about. But I have tried Monkeyfarm's technique, and it worked fine with me. Thanks everyone! This was a great realization on my part. :tu:
irenicus118

[Monkeyfarm]

I'm sorry for not reply to this earlier...

To answer the question re: a guide or actual deformation, this is a technique to actually deform the sphere that is part of the MM tool.

Whenever I write up this kind of stuff, be it for Photoshop or whatever, I get a new appreciation for people that write well written manuals and training books. It's a real biatch to get some of this across, which is why it's a shame that for some reason the zScript did not record.

I also appologize for using inconsistant terms with regard to ZB (models vs. objects vs. tools). I'm new at this so I have not really internalized the terminology.

[Jaycephus]

Boozy,

I was thinking about your problem, and it occurred to me that maybe you are working with a clone or copy of one of the objects?

Try this and see if you have a problem:

1. Save two tools to your harddrive with unique names.

2. Make sure that both tools are loaded.

3. Draw, mark, and clear the two tools.

4. Draw the MM object. Go into TRANSFORM:EDIT mode and rotate it to a view that will allow you to edit one of the tools with respect to the other. It is not really important what these objects are, or how they are situated, in this test. We really just want to get to the editing stage.

5. Go out of edit mode and press REPOSITION to get the markers re-aligned. Clear the layer.

6. Place each tool on their respective marker, placing the tool you want edit last.

7. Go into TRANSFORM:EDIT:MOVE mode, or some other edit mode, and move some polys around. This should result in a change to the tool. It is not necessary to save the tool at this point, especially since ZBrush is not prone to crashing while modeling. (Thank you, Ofer!!) The change, if large enough, may also be apparent in the picture of the tool in the TOOL palette.

8. Clear the layer and redraw the MM object. It doesn't matter if you have multiple MM tools to choose from. (The only possible difference that I know of between different MM tools in the TOOL palette is if you chose a different Stroke type or Draw Size for a given MM tool. Then it will behave a little differently than the original MM tool with the default DragRect Stroke.) The MM object should incorporate the tool you just modified with whatever changes you made to it.

At least this is how it works for me.

[boozy floozie]

Jaycephus,
Hey hey Rock'n'Roll your solution worked. :)

Many thanks indeed for taking so much time and trouble to consider my problem I appreciate that immensely. :tu: :tu: :tu:

In my previous efforts I was attempting to use 3 objects within the MM group. Following your instructions I just used two objects and it worked perfectly.

Attempting to repeat my earlier experiments using more than 2 objects and it failed to work.

I've no idea why this should be so but atleast I've got it to work with 2 objects and that's plenty.

[Jaycephus]

Hi Boozy,

You're welcome. Actually, when I did my testing earlier, to make sure that what I was saying was in fact true, I was using three objects, not just two. All I can think is that when you recalled a tool and edited it, it was not the actual tool that was used to create the marker in the first place, therefore, the subsequently created MM object did not incorporate the edits you had made. I also have had some seemingly anomalous behavior with multi-markers, but I cannot say that it was a bug. I need to get some more experience with them. They are kind of hard to master.