The OFFICIAL Monday Night Challenge Discussion Thread

[aurick]

Greetings, all!

There has been an excellent discussion going on in the Monday Night Challenge (http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=012548) thread, but it has unfortunately started to overshadow the artwork being posted there. We've decided that it would be a nice idea to start this thread to continue that discussion, leaving that thread to its original purpose: artwork within the current topic.

Enjoy! And thanks for keeping this place so interesting. :)

[ed_the_atom]

Good idea Aurick...and possibly to start a ball rollling...

Expressionism link http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/tl/20th/expressionism.html

The Fauves..... http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/tl/20th/fauvism.html

Abstract thought portrayed visually. To be able to paint in this manner really depends on a great understanding of all facets of art. These genres are far harder to paint 'properly' than any type of realism. Balance of colour , form, breaking rules and formatting your own...ie making it work. Understanding emotion etc... However all can carry over to realism or vice versa.

It has been argued that Henri Rosseau (the conductor) was probably the greatest painter of all time....yet he knew little of art. What he did know was himself and his own self educated approach to art. The sleeping Gypsy, War......wonderful pieces.

Monsters...you will find very few...Maybe in the odd Goya painting. You will not be able to answer questions such as....where shall I put another horn? Instead you will be wondering ...what can unify?, what can contrast?, for what purpose shall I use this form, this colour, this line? etc etc.

Sure a rusting tin can is a lovely painting, a skeleton a great sight, but they are only objects... to be able to take objects and enrich or imbue them with meaning, to imbibe, a far greater step. The symphony and the pop song.

To often I see the approach of basically thrusting an object on to a background, sure the object may be staged, but that is all. Give that object to say a window dresser, allow him/her to place it on a background in a window....the difference in this analogy for the object would be remakable (providing the window dresser was adept in their vocation).

That's about minus a dimes worth.

Another great love......cubism <A HREF="http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/gris/cafephil.jpg" TARGET=_blank>
Where the chair the table the man the cafe are one and the world cut off but outside.
Because the action of the man, table, cafe are a common purpose for all these things they become one, and the outside world another 'one'.

&lt;A HREF="http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/gris/cafephil.jpg</A>" TARGET=_blank&gt;http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/gris/cafephil.jpg[/URL]&lt;/A&gt;
http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/gris/gris.lavabo.jpg

Reduce them to get the full effect.

[havran]

cool post, ed! I have read it several times ... well-expressed and stimulating ... it's helping me to clarify my thoughts about composition

thanks also for the ibiblio link -- this fall and winter I plan to visit more online galleries to catch up on my art education and inspiration

re: staging an object versus putting it in a context or composing a scene or poem:

for some reason, the shadow-box maker from Neuromancer [a novel by Wm. Gibson] came to mind ... two or three objects juxtaposed in a box which somehow seem to evoke some elusive meaning (in that story it might have more to do with the perceiver than the maker)

this is also relevant for poetry, music, cooking, home decoration, fashion, astrology -- ars combinatoria, or the art of combinations

a single object on a background might look like an item in a catalog, whereas interaction among additional elements (including the background) can make the scene more evocative and open-ended or spacious in some dimension, avoiding opacity and stasis

however, ZBrush is a magic art-box whose users have different intentions and goals ... I can certainly understand someone expressing their joy at making something by posting it, even if it's not museum-quality ... and there are many computer-graphics artists whose craft is to model and texture individual objects

MNC does a couple of nice things: it nudges people to try out different technical aspects of ZBrush, and it gives them a project to work on that they can do just for fun -- it's part of the great chain of teaching and mentoring that I have seen since I joined ZBC last spring

There's definitely room for other threads with a theme though, e.g. in homage to various cool artists or schools or pictorial subjects -- but I'm hoping without a deadline

[some of the above is in response to the discussion on the other thread, and perhaps some is just my usual incoherent tangential rambling]

[Frenchy Pilou]

Damned, there was a wondeful Site with very beautiful galleries and numerous!
With some articles about beauty in painting, critics, theory etc...
Move or desapear ....
Pilou
Ps Yep ! I refound it!!!!!!!
Moving indeed!
Bryan Yoder's Art Gallery and Critic's Corner (http://www.goodart.org/art.htm)
Have happy surfing and debates :)

[zerebrom]

This here is nice, so:

Looking back to all those years, trying to get somewhere where I could say "yep this is mine, this is me!" - it was frustrating sometimes. There were times where I had so many pics in my mind - only to find out that I was unskilled. Then again it happened that I sat on my drawing table (old school, I worked in this field long before our plastic/metal-boxes were able to do more then some weird calculating), and even though I had no plan what to do some kind of strange mechanism took over and suddenly I was half way through a new pic.

What I mean is: you need both, the crafting skills and at least a bit of vision. No matter if it's abstract or realism - without this knowledge and some sensibility you end up doing Poser (NO offend to anybody, just my opinion!!).

Now, today it is easy enough to present yourself as an artist in the grafics-field. All you need is some nifty software (I am talking NOT about ZBrush or any of them more serious applications), and turn three wheels, flip two switches - and BINGO, your good old HP presents you with a hardcopied piece of "art".
And, while it is a good thing, that art is now possible in every living room (alright, it was possible from that moment on when the first cave was decorated): how can you tell someone that presents you with his latest work from his "mauve-phase" that all he has done was ruin this nice piece of paper??
You simply get no additional skills or imagination as a upgrade when you go and buy some software.
That is why I liked Glen's pencil-case that much: back to the roots, for good and in the middle of a phantastic piece of software!!

What about those drawers "abstract"/"real" (with all their different under-drawers??

People like to think in categories: "green" is for walking, "red" you have to stop, "Picasso - I can do that too (so it can't be art :D), and besides all: it's ABSTRACT", an so on. All these drawers have some rules or codes of conduct to them - if they didn't, well - they would not suit the customs of this system.
A good friend of mine (Prof. in English literature) will ruin his reputation, if he would comment a piece of art with "... I like it!". No he is forced to not just like what he sees, but he will write some essay of how that piece of art blends with social, political and formal things. He can "describe" it, but if you ask him if he likes it???

What do I mean with all this? Well, I think we should not categorize art (the next logical question would be something like: "... and do we need this kind of art?"), but only make the difference in liking/disliking all those pieces of art all around us. Imagine you were five years old, full of emotions and curiosity: it is enough to feel good looking at the works of anybody. And, in doing so you will be able to do something worth the time you put into - just be yourself.

Ok, long speech and nothing is clearer :D - please fogive me, I will NOT do this ever again!! ;) :D

[Grub]

Now I know MTB's been kindly running the MNC for several times in a row, although I thought the challenges were supposed to rotate from member to member at some point, like they used to.

How about handing it over to Aurick for the next challenge, to make it more of the official ZBrush challenge? After all, Pixolator used to set the ZBrush Halloween challenges. :)

Of course, We can still debate the content of the challenge on this thread as has been decided. Speaking for myself, I'm just one to go with the flow, but I'll chip in if an idea interests me. :tu:

[Stonecutter]

Thanx for this Matthew...As a sort of instigator, I felt badly about the possibility that the discussion MIGHT derail the purpose of the thread, but felt compelled to make the discussion possible, which is why I suggested MTB and I doing it elsewhere, and 'Voila!'...You provided the space...I do have lots of thoughts on this, but since I haven't had my cappuccino yet, I will leave it at this...

Thank you for starting a 'context' thread here...I see major growth for all of us as a possibility, and I'll be back when my tissues are properly caffeine-impregnated... ;) :cool:

(Later, and fully caffeineated...)

First Havran, thanks for the Gibson reference, and that's a great example...I live in the same city as Gibson, and I have copies of Neuromancer, Count Zero, and Mona Lisa Overdrive about 5 feet away in my studio as I write this.. ;)

As my membership number indicates I've been here for a while, and I still remember being puzzled when I first came to this forum, at the plethora of bumpy-skinned monsters everyone did with ZBrush. As a lifelong working artist, I thought it was like a detour, because surely if you had tools this powerful, they could be used to express practically anything, and since most monster pics seemed to only have (a)Rage or (b)Dementia as an emotional range, this puzzled the hell out of me...Of course, I understand the textural fascination, the cultural familiarity and 'comfort zone' of these sorts of images, but it seemed less relevant to me than the 'feeling' Ed discusses. They just didn't have the range. Of course there are people who can do these very well, but given the limited emotional range, they would require a very sensitive approach to make them unique, one from the other...In a letter to a friend along the lines of this topic, I referred to the stories of 'Grendel' and 'Beowulf', two of the oldest pieces of literature in written form. These deal with the concept of 'Monster as Outsider', and could perhaps be imbued with some life with a thoughtful approach...

Now the reason I started the discussion with MTB in the first place was that I saw the idea of an abstract concept as a challenge, not only more 'challenging', but also that the monster makers could also participate as fully as anybody else...
This is inherent in the concept I suggested.

For instance, 'Loneliness'. An abstract concept, an emotional state caused by isolation, either physical, moral, cultural...You name it. Now given this abstract as a beginning, obviously it would be perfectly appropriate for the depiction of 'Loneliness', if you were inclined to experiments in the depiction of Teratogenic variation, ('monsterism), then this would be a perfect opportunity to depict Grendel, of ancient repute, staged against an enlarged moon, on a craggy rock, with a warm looking farmstead in the valley below, a curl of smoke from the rustic chimney, and the sense of home, denied to this miserable creature, as the element of isolated lonliness to tie this particular monster to the theme...

By the same token, an Impressionist might isolate color, and arrange the balance to depict loneliness with a soft spot of mordant blue, surrounded by all the colors and shapes of Spring...

The 'ABSTRACT' concept has much more flexibility from an artistic point of view, than the tangible, hard-edged physical subject choice might have...

And as far as learning ZBrush goes, there is nothing about the abstract subject choice that restricts the tools used, the process used, or anything else. The 'ground rules' haven't changed...The methods of approaching the subject have been broadened, the imaginative possibilities increased, and to me most importantly, the hand, the mind, and the heart have all been involved in the project...

Personally, I'm prepared to offer suggestions for topics, participate in those challenges, and enjoy every minute of the process! :cool: On the other hand, the ONLY reason this useful thread these guys started, the MNC, exists IS through the efforts of a group of people who get together on the IRC Chat, and that deserves respect, so I have no right to complain, and by no means was I doing so, when I started the discussion on the MNC...I was offering input only, as I hope others will do here on this thread.
I have always believed in 'Context', so thanks again for starting this Matthew, because in the time since July 2001 when I first came here, this seems like the most likely source of 'Context Developement' I've seen. (And I also think it will be informative as hell, and fun as well! :D ...Rhyme intentional. It is Friday! :D :cool: )

Cheers, All!

[havran]

hey SC: it took a while, but Neuromancer, Gibson's poetry ("lunar concrete", "the color of television tuned to a dead channel") and the names of bands and their album titles in music mags gave me a huge insight into poetry and why I loved science fiction book covers but usually didn't care to read 400 pages of sf prose --juxtapositions of two or three key words -- distillations and evocations -- in 1993 and 1994, I even copied and distributed little poetry leaflets and fake band flyers around town in Gainesville, FL

p.s. -- at the time I was the lead singer of the fictional band Overmind Resistance :D

hey zerebrom: your post completely made sense to me :) -- I can certainly say that no matter what vision I had in mind, the painting in the common world turned out differently ;)

these are some good questions that you have raised -- the same is happening in music as well as art -- the tools of art are in the hands of the people -- nowadays, beyond making your own party mix of other people's music, you can make your own music on your computer with virtual-studio software and burn it on a CD or post an MP3 on the web -- maybe music and art are becoming even more non-commercial, something more like cooking, dancing or poetry -- a gift to other people or just something one likes to do -- little wildflowers and melodies from our transitory human flowerboxes :D

hey Grub: [I'm] still working on that "opacity" hindrance ;)

[zerebrom]

@havran:
what I said about art was meant for any kind of art - and speaking of music: I pity those poor souls that are content to have bass and drums beating like the shredder on that car-graveyard, all this with a tonal expression of I don't know what. And: this is NO generetional thing. As an artform it might be ok (describing the absence of hope that is widely spread among our teens), but music - no!!
But, perhaps has my playing of anything with strings on it (for over 30 years now) ruined my hearing-abilities - with Townsend and Beck (to name a few) I think I am in the best of company :D !!
Uhm, sorry for leaving the thread!!

[Grub]

Hey Havran: I just want some friendly clarification. :)

[havran]

"opacity" in the sense of over-concreteness, fixity, the claustrophobia of surfaces, lack of spaciousness -- in the context of dissatisfaction with my own compositions

well, it might not be much of a clarification :rolleyes: -- I think I am destined to be obscure as well as opaque :D

[ed_the_atom]

This thread needs a text break......

http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/uploaded_from_zbc/200309/user_image-1064671586ovz.jpg

[havran]

it sure does, and what a nice break it is :) -- although I was trying to take a vow of silence until I coughed up some pictures :D

[Mahlikus The Black]

Not to offend or sound irritated but I will say it again for thoughs who missed it in the other thread. I do not pick challenges nor do I run the MNC...I only post them...and make a graphic for them. Since the 5th challenge (afer starting them up again). It has been a collective discussion in IRC about what to do next.
We also kinda stopped picking people to continue MNC with their idea because for one...not too many people show up in IRC anymore to pick fairly...and finally...we don't want any other participants to feel as if the have achieved less by not being picked.

Tonight, I will be in there a while to talk about how we should 'mature' these challenges. I will be 'suggesting' that we have two levels of participation. One for new and intermediate users and one for advanced users. This will leave it up to the participants to decide where they fit best. I will also suggest that when we do start up a new MNC...we start up a new MNC-Discussion thread. This thread will be for input and suggestions for the next MNC to come..and so on..and so forth.

see yall later

[Stonecutter]

First MTB, as I said when this all started, it IS the IRC crowd who are putting out the effort to keep this MNC going...
That alone demands that you guys shouldn't take heat from those not involved enough to be in the IRC, among which I count myself...I'm not much on 'Chats'. ;)

But...I hope you DON'T do this 'Intermediate and Advanced' deal...To me, that's just one more division...There is enough misplaced elitism in the world already. I would suggest you reconsider creating still another artificial division here...

The 'maturing' of the challenges on the other hand is a great idea, and having a regular discussion thread like this to get the input of any interested members is also a very positive step. You can do this without pigeonholeing, and subdividing groups here...Imagination in the choices of subject, and more range of expression, and choice of approach will do the job! ;) :cool:

[Ron Harris]

Stopped by during lunch to check stuff out..interesting....my input is that I agree with SC on this Mike. Rifts of elitist plague the internet art sites. I think CGtalks is doing somethign along those lines now as some of it is going on at Rosity to a certain degree. There have been rifts here from time to time since I have been a member and division resulted. The thing that attracts people to this forum from comments read and some that I remember making is that we are a good community with a mix of all skill levels. The maturing idea, sounds promising I also agree. That still is dependent on the group. In case people don't know how this stuff happens is basically we have a good BS session of sorts most of the time and talk about everything under the sun or moon (depending on what time zone yer in). At some point during the chat before members have to leave (for whatever reasons..ie supper, sleep, kids etc) everyone starts blurting out their ideas. Then from that list of goodies we start forming more refined subjects on the challenge and finally vote on a finished idea. Yeah, sometimes we come up with some turkeys for sure....but other times we come up with some pretty decent ones. Mike posts the MNC logo and criteria for that challenge and we get on with it. There is no real committee or anything. We have some fun and hopefully everyone back on the ZBC forum likes the challenge for that week. Everyone learns from everyone. Now personally contacting someone like Mike in a PM to put in your vote for an idea of a challenge would be great ( if you cant make it to the chats). That way you get your input taken into consideration. But as the MNC split...I think that would not be a good thing. It would not be a community effort if we did that. kewl thread...thnx Matthew

[Mahlikus The Black]

Awesome..see that was one of the points of posting the ideas here. I whole heartedly agree as not to divide the MNC...If it means making ZBC and the MNC a tumultuous place then scratch it.

As for IRC being the only source of input..not anymore..with threads like this one. :tu:

[Stonecutter]

Right on, MTB and Ron... :tu:

(a)The MNC Challenge is a good idea, and a fun one...
(b)It can be even better...
(c)A debt is owed to those who brought it this far...
(d)It's time we ALL got involved to see just how good it can be...

Count me in, any way I can assist the process... :cool:

[TVeyes]

Good thread. I believe we should have a discussion like this once in a while. I join the IRC chat whenever I can, but I am not there on a regular basis. I thoroughly enjoy the chats, even when they go astray(in my mind) ;), and especially enjoy the ideas discussed for the next MNC.

But with an ever growing ZBC member count it does seem essential that the next topic discussion spreads from the IRC chat to ZBC. Though it has been fun to listen to the various suggestions when on IRC, and I will miss that, more people need a say IMO. But this seems like something Pixologic should organize, as I think they have already hinted at will be happening in the near future.

It might be more static, with a vote for the next MNC subject, but everyone can be involved.

Or maybe, even better, we could start a european chat, at a more godly hour. That way it isn't just sad european farts like me who chat away at 2 in the morning :D

[Grub]

Well said, TV Eyes. :tu:

MTB thanks for replying about the challenge. :tu: I would actually like to see the challenge run by Pixologic as it would then be completely impartial and not appear as if it's run by one member only, who's not a moderator.

Also, the challenge should not be exclusively set by chat members, which is putting boundaries between people who don't go in chat and people who do.

This is Pixologic's site and it would be official if a real representative of ZBC ran the challenge, as opposed to being run exclusively by just one member. No matter how you look at it, running the MNC is a privilege, since it empowers the member who has set it.

Either that or it should rotate between members of this forum like it used to do- that was a fair system. MTB, I actually recall you saying on a previous challenge thread that you would be passing it around after you'd ran three challenges. It's now up to about six challenges!

As I said to you by PM, I don't ask for myself but I'm sure many members would like to have a go of setting the challenge themselves. Give us a chance, man! :D

Anyway, I really think it would be great if Aurick or Pixolator could take charge of an Offical Challenge. this will in no way harm MNC at all, rather it will probably make it even better.
MTB, you or anybody else who fancies starting up independent challenges or interest threads could still do so- for instance, like Kokoro's thread. The thread by Kokoro has attracted a lot of participation.

I hope after this 'Monsters and Villains' challenge is up, Pixolator can surprise us with a 'Spooks and Bogies' challenge (or something) for Halloween. I feel a little sorry that the current challenge is eclipsing this ZBC Halloween tradition that Pixolator used to set for us. What a shame...

I also hope my humble opinion will be viewed constructively and not be taken out of context or as a reason for reprisals. It just seems like common sense. I enjoy posting here and if people can take the debate while keeping cool heads, more respect to them.

Here's to an Official ZBrush Challenge, decided by members but run by Pixologic. :tu: :tu:

[Mentat7]

The MNC was established by a small group of people who thought others could benefit from the practice and the exposure to the creative energies. It was never a Pixologic endorsed endeavor and was in all honesty never intended to be decided upon by all 5000+ members of ZBC. To say it should be now taken over by Pixologic is not an accurate assumption. Pixologic is surely going to be launching their own ideas for challenges by whatever name they so choose. It is not neccessary to turn the MNC over to other people as there is nothing broken. If anyone would wish to participate to do so they are free to jump in. The MNC was first and foremost and still is in most part designed to put forth a challenge focusing on a small group of technical features found in ZBrush. It was designed to help people learn those tools and techniques. It was never about "higher concepts of art". I have attempted to initiate such challenges in the past but let's face it; the majority of ZBC members do not participate. The MNC is and always will be in my mind about technical achievements....helping people learn the tools and techinques. We have attempted other "types" of challenges and no doubt will do so again but the main focus is technical skills. Anything else would be beyond the scope of the original charter. If something else is indeed desired I suggest a new challenge be created (point in fact there is NOTHING stopping ANYONE from initiating their own challenge). The title MNC belongs completely to the IRC group that created it and it belongs there. It may come to pass that in the near future that with the roll out of the new version the MNC may subside into obscurity and be completely replaced by a better embodiment of challenges by Pixologic. Such is the way with change. However, until such an occurence becomes reality the MNC is the MNC. If you wish to participate come to IRC or email someone you know that frequents there and make a suggestion.

Here is a short list of IRC frequenters:

Myself (Mentat7)
Ron Harris
MTB
TVeyes
DMerchen
Polaris
Havran
WingedOne
DeeVee
Raphael

There are others I can not remember off the top of my head.

[Stonecutter]

Sorry Lonnie, but at least one of the members you list, at least wants to have the discussion...I understand your proprietary feelings, but I for one find the distinction you make a very fine one. Rather than working out a method of broadening participation, you think it should be restricted to IRC participants, or those who contact same...Fair enough... ;)

But, I do think that since it is a forum thread here at ZBC, others might have different opnions about how it could be more inclusive, and it harms nobody to entertain some ideas, and have the discussion, although your opinion is also relevant, and truth be told, a little more than most, since you have been a participant of the IRC...
But there are others with different views, most of whom haven't spoken yet...At least we have a place for the discussion now! :cool:

[Grub]

Ah, but Lonnie this thread is called the 'Official Monday Night Challenge', so it's confusing if you're saying it's supposed to be unofficial. ;) Maybe it's time for Pixologic to start an additional challenge- a monthly OFFICIAL ZBRUSH CHALLENGE. That way you can have the Monday Night CHAT challenge too, set by MTB or rotational if you wish (you set some good challenges in the past, M7).

As I've no wish to become a chat member for the foreseeable future, I'd like to see a Challenge for all members. :)

[Mentat7]

That is exactly what I was suggesting Grub.


And SC....unless Pixologic wishes to create their own "Official Challenge".... and that word official was never decided upon for the MNC by the way...it needs to be removed........the MNC challenge will stand as it always has......those who wish to participate can do so through IRC, contact an IRC regular, contact one of the IRC mods (these will be posted later), or post their requests in one of the MNC challenges. I am sorry to say that it is impossible to orchestrate 5000+ members across varying time zones. The MNC is about teaching ZBrush...not about teaching art. It is a resource for people to learn the software. It was never intended for anything more. Now with that said you will be happy to know I have resigned from the MNC "board". I wash my hands of this mess. Happy ZBrushing SC.

[Mahlikus The Black]

This thread is called the " The OFFICIAL Monday Night Challenge Discussion Thread.

Just to clear that up..thanks

I also wanted to clear up that MNC is an IRC chat creation to learn ZBrush..Pixologic later showed interest in our musings and made us a nice gallery for the entries (thanks guys). This is were I think people confuse MNC as being a Pixologic instated challenge..but it is not..though..great news is that they will be making their own soon after the new release..(or something to that effect as was mentioned).

[Grub]

The Official tag hints that the Monday night challenge is the Official ZBrush challenge, Mahlikus. What do you think about rotating it from member to member?

[Stonecutter]

Sorry to hear that you have 'resigned' from the MNC Lonnie, but frankly that has nothing to do with me, or in fact this general discussion...What you choose to do at MNC is definitely your business...

And 'Happy ZBrushing' to you, Lonnie... :cool:

[Mahlikus The Black]

I am sorry to sat that i took it upon myself to start the irc-MNC up again...not knowing what it stood for on all levels. One major one being the interactivity of members in IRC. Afterward...those of us in irc discussed new topics. I am not in control of MNC...I do know that after this challenge...The traditional halloween gallery starts...(if pixologic starts it again this year). So there will not be one for a month after this..I haven't discussed this with the other IRC regulars but I am pretty sure that this is the case unless we come up with something to add.

[Grub]

Yeah, but MTB what's so hard about rotating the challenge round the members? This would solve a lot in making the challenge free to all. We can then get back in the spirit of sharing... That means all the ZBC members, not just the chat group, can have blast at it. :)

PS I'm glad you're agreeing that there should be a Halloween Official ZBrush challenge. :tu: :tu:

[Ron Harris]

hmmm Mike what are you apologizing for? The irc channel isnt going away. We have stated a way for all to become involved...as it was stated in public a long time ago when similiar issues were presented, and issues of people wanting into the chat but werent able to get there due to time restraints or computer and program issues...The rotation stopped due to people not showing up regularly on the chats. Then the way it's done now came to be. Nothing wrong with it..and though the irc group posted the challenge all members were invited to participate. This discussion thread seemed to be started due to the themes being picked...a villain or monster can also be created using a storm or fire or something like that rather than a regular monster like we normally see and that I always do...I own that particular irc channel...but the members run it..and members being anyone that wants to log in there...Mike was kind enough to take the reigns and do the posting of the challenge...he doesnt pick the challenges though he does have input as does everyone...when he posts on the threads for the MNC that is as a mouth piece for the group. Group being, once again, whoever joins. I personally was away for several months from the chat this summer. hmmmm well that is something for everyone to ponder over...but personally I dont mind him posting the challenges..it makes him feel good about himself and he is familiar with the wording for it...and honestly alot of people when asked before to do the postings of the new mnc's seemed very disinterested in that part of the business...and would ask others to do it...if you remember I posted them for a good while..then it got tedious and I would hand it off to another member..but just because I got lazy about it...anyhoo...just had some more thoughts that I had wanted to share on the subject.

[Grub]

Well, more the reason for it to be run by a mod.
However, I honestly don't see why it can't be passed around- there'll always be somebody to take it up, especially since the Challenge has got bigger now. I said before that I was not asking for myself, but maybe some time in the future if the challenge was properly rotating I might enjoy having the chance of doing it. Why can't everybody have the chance? That's not a big thing to ask.

[Mentat7]

Will you make the decision on who will take the reigns Rob? What will you do when that person doesn't follow through? What do you do when it happens again and again? We make those decisions in the IRC on a weekly basis because those very problems exist. The MNC was created by the ZBRush chat group. If anyone wishes to have an input on it they are free to join that group. There are no restrictions. Several people that have voiced their opinion here on how the MNC should be changed were in fact solicited to join but summarily snubbed us. I am sorry but if someone doesn't wish to participate then they do not deserve a controlling interest in the MNC. Consequently the MNC is a privately operated enterprise. If you wish to change the MNC I suggest you create an all new challenge and ask for sponsorship by Pixologic, the MNC by the way is NOT sponsored by Pixologic, call it a different name other than MNC and leave the MNC alone. It will probably disappear of its own accord eventually anyway. As I have said before I believe Pixologic is going to create their own Official Challenges.

Changing the MNC is not a debateable issue. Ownership of the MNC remains in the IRC chat group and will remain that way.

[Ron Harris]

well the challenges were dropped due to lack of interest and participation. Mike revived it. This is a good thing. Let's hope it stays alive. Something I do want to illustrate, is the thread I started on the forum a little bit ago. There can be as many challenges as can be posted. It's all about interest in the forum. If no one posts then it dies. That kinda happened apparently with the KenB threads. Notice they kinda died off. Good reference threads but no longer really alive. It is like tv and Neilson ratings....if the ratings arent there the show goes away. Same goes for these thread. MNC was rumored to be ran by pixologic for a while. I never saw that happen and the members took it upon ourselves to grab the ball and run with it. But once again it boils down to interest and participation. In the past several months we have had a lot of great young blood enter the forum here. So interest is back on learning. What do they want to learn. Well they apparently all want to learn to do heads. (some of us never quit doing those..they are so much fun)we are back to square one...and the challenges have to be kept with the new members of the forum in mind to keep it fair. Like you Grub, your modeling is outstanding...what challenges you? I have not seen second rate stuff come from you. Its always been top notch. Look at all the members also taht could be responding to this discussion group? Are they interested or is it just a small minority of the people that are here now on the thread?

[Stonecutter]

I've already responded to your challenge thread Ron... ;)

I can see how it might involve a lot of organisational skill to keep things going on the MNC, but all I was proposing in the beginning is that there were more diverse subjects for artistic endeavour available.


So, I think we should all take it easy, have a good time, and enjoy the ideas, and 'challenges' how we see fit. :cool:


[Edited By Moderator]

[Ron Harris]

well I observed Mike having to take the defensive over doing somethign positive on behalf of alot of people. Intiative..and some were threatened by this for wahtever reason. Because the over tone was that suddenly he was in an apologetic state and really for no reason. Some things have been said that might suggest trying to take over what the members started. That is what might bother me. Not that others couldnt do as good if not a better job, but it is the point of matter. We already fixed the original topic with another thread as you saw and replied to, SC. If we get the caht group up in numbers things could be alot more involved with the group as a whole. And the baton could be passed around again as it was originally.

[Grub]

I hear ya, guys. But where's the animosity- it's just a healthy debate to me, cleans out the cockles. :D It sounds good about the proper Pixologic Challenge- to me that's the way forward. I think the confusion stems from MNC being the chat members idea and therefore the question of who has input and who's running it follows. But put that to one side, I think if Pixologic started up a proper ZBC Challenge it would snowball from there. Who will participate remains to be seen, but we can only find out if it's started up. ;) :tu:

Well, I've voiced my opinions and I hope people respect that. As I respect all your opinions- here's to a friendly forum whoever is running challenges. :) At the end of the day it's about having fun. :tu:

[Ron Harris]

:tu:

[Stonecutter]

Me too... :tu:

[Rafael Hernandez]

SC, Grub, with all due respect I think that you are missing the point. If you feel some resistance from the IRC group is because the MNC is their baby. It was started by them not by Aurick or Pixolator. And as such they are within their right to deside what kind of format it should have. And they have that right not only because they created it but because they maintained it as well. The reason because it's so popular right now it's because they took the time to deside the topics, post images, support people who posted their own images, as well as providing explanations on how they created their work (Mentat particulary). Furthermore, they are not creating a private club that only a few can join, from the begining they have invited everyone to participate. For a time there was talk of meeting at different times to accomodate those who could not meet Monday nights (which i guess did not pan out due to lack of interest).

Another thing that I think you misunderstand and that Mike(MTB) seems to be getting some flak from is that things are desided by comittee at the MNC. It's not a matter of passing around the desition of what the topic is going to be. Everybody proposes a topic, then those topics are discussed and finally one is chosen. If Mike deside it some of the recent topics is only because he was the one who brought the MNC back with some very popular ideas for the challenges. On the last night I was at the IRC we all agreed that he should post the topic.

Another thing that I don't understand is why do you have to take the challenges so literally Stonecutter. If you want to challenge yourself in a more creative way, why not take a creative approach to the topic. As an example: this week's topic was Monsters. You don't have to do a classic monster head if you don't wish. There are many different kinds of monsters in this world not all of them physical. Goya wrote in one of his paintings: "El sueno de la razon produce monstruos" , The sleep of reason Produces monsters. Doesn't that seem more up your alley. You could post a very creative and challenging work within the context of the topic.

I know you mean well. And I hope that you understand that I also mean well. Always a fan of your work Rob.

[Stonecutter]

100% on the money Raphael! :tu: ;)
And if you check, you'll find that all the way through here, I have stated that I had no say over the challenge, since I DIDN'T paticipate on the IRC chat...So, all I was doing was discussing some general ideas, which I would hold is a positive, not a negative, nor an indication that I missed any point...And...ALL the way through I have recognised the work done by those members who do choose to participate in the IRC...They deserve respect for their time and effort. I do not feel threatened by new ideas, nor am I enchanted by old ones...

And, if you check the 'Monster Challenge' thread, you'll find that I HAVE come up with a non-conventional idea for a 'monster', and you'll be seeing it soon there! :D So, in no way am I, (or my iimagination), restricted, or in fact affected in ANY way, by the IRC chat, or any rules they might have for their challenges...I particiated in the last one, 'Mascot', and am also participating in this latest one...I merely wanted an open discussion, and thanks to Aurick, we have a place for that...

Cheers, Raphael! :cool:

[Grub]

Hey Rafael, I totally understand what's going on. My last post was intended as my final on it. I need to catch some zzzz's. :)
I'm missing no points, friend. I see that MNC is decided by the chat group and posted by MTB. :tu: At one time I was in IRC chat and that was when the original rotational thing was going down, but that's history. So you can see where I'm coming from...

I just wanted a challenge for the whole of ZBC. :tu: If MNC continues, it's all good to me- I did participate on the Mascot one. If any further MNCs tickle my fancy I will again. ;)

Thanks for your input, see you on the board. :)

[TVeyes]

I tried three times to write something that would clarify my position in this debate without stirring anything up. I failed, so I will just say that I will still be in the Monday Night Challenge chats on irc.sorcery.net channel #Zbrush3. And will also try and do my best to get some European chat going (If anyone joins the channel on a Monday evening/night post it on the community forum please)

[Mahlikus The Black]

I need to clear up (or rather repeat) a point. MNC is all about advancing one's skill in ZBrush. Subject matter or artistical inspiration is just a fluffer and is designed to be limiting for the purpose of concentrating on mastering the application.

Now, SC *sigh* okay we all know that this is the opposite of what you were suggesting the MNC do. But, it is a good thing to diversify artistically. I agree...but not in MNC. Now, when Pixologic starts their Challenges up, this should be remedied. I am sure they have noted your opinions as well as others. I do hope ZBC starts up its own challenge soon.

Another highly overlooked key to MNC is the interaction within the week(s) @ IRC. I post an image and someone wants to ask how I made a certain element...they PM me saying, "Pop into IRC tonight if you can so I may ask a few questions about your image...,” *IN A PROFOUND VOICE* And low, the knowledge is shared! lol And that’s what its about. This is not to say that someone from ZBC who doesn’t frequent IRC cannot PM me with the same question…as Ron said, though this challenge is all IRC…ZBC members are always welcome.

Also, one reason why we don't divide MNC into new and advanced challenges is that we do not want to facilitate a division of the masses (even if it is the individual’s choice to place themselves). That’s not what the MNC goal was. Knowledge is its drive and so is passing that knowledge on.

I have Mentat to thank for my current knowledge and experience in ZB and IRC. IMO and I am sure most in IRC too...Mentat is and shall ever be an entity synonymous with MNC and what it is all about.

This is also the reason why I started it all up again. He has taught me too much with IRC/MNC for me to just sit and let it die…especially with such a boost in new users. Oh yeah…*gives Ron a big hug* Thanks buddy! The reason why I am apologetic lately is that MNC has now suffered a little because of conflict and a lack of understanding. Though I know it won’t really change, in so many ways, it already has. I am both sad and angry but there is nothing to be done now save to move on.

Well, I am at work and getting paid to sit and discuss ZB is great…but I have to get to work…
:(

[zerebrom]

Well, I wonder what this is all about: reading of "reigning", who will/should take the lead over ... exactly what??

What do we have here: we have a forum that is "regulated" by standard manners (and aurick if things get rough ;)), we have the possibility to post all kinds of pics, this is a democratic thing.
Let's look at the immediate past: what exactly did Ron do?
Yep, he challenged every member that would be interested for some pics. He had a motto - what makes this differ from any "organized" challenge?? Simple: anybody can take part. There are no restrictions of any kind - not even quality is listed as a door to enter the challenge.

And now - please - tell me: what is missing if we all can do just that: think of a motto that is interesting, do a post and see what is coming in!!?
Nobody reigns, rules, leads - just some friendly members, trying to do their best with the soft of their choice (Painter....ooops, forgive me:ZBrush!! :D ).

[Mahlikus The Black]

exactly..nobody 'reigns'..there is no leader...only representatives of a higher purpose...uh oh...don't want to sound religious..lol...thats a whole other battle.

[DeeVee]

I think this whole thing is a storm in a teapot. I enjoy the Monday night's chat because they are fun..You get to meet other members on a different level and you learn something about the software that brought us together in the first place. I must say that I was a bit ticked when I saw the word 'Official' in Aurick's post. This I am surprised at because Matthew is very good with words, and I am sure that his vocabulary is large enough to have found another word, unless there is more to it than meets the eye! What is wrong with "The Monday Night Challenge discussion Thread" This is my twopense worth, now let us go back to enjoying ZBrush! I certainly intend to! :D :D :D :D

[zerebrom]

@ DeeVee: may I quote &gt;&gt;&gt; "You get to meet other members on a different level and you learn something about the software that brought us together in the first place." &lt;&lt;&lt;

Now: learning something avout the software - I am doing this whenever I visit here: either in the forum or at the quicklinks. I get my questions answered (and often enough receive answers without having a question!).
Anything special to the challenge?

But more interesting: meeting members on a different level &gt;&gt; I don't get the point there. Do you mean the direct contact via IRC - or .... what???

I am only asking, because I never participated on one of those challenges, and this discussion made me kind of curious.

[Stonecutter]

Peace guys... :cool:
If people want to go to an IRC chat, that's fine...(I don't) If a group of people there want to do challenges, with their own criteria, that's cool too...I just wanted to discuss topics and artistic challenge as a concept...
MTB did nothing wrong here, and in fact as I understand it, he's the one who kept the idea going, after participation dropped temporarily, so for that he deserves credit.

Great discussion, and lively debate... :tu:

(And Joe? I believe Matthew used the word 'Official' as an indicator of the fact that this is a 'Discussion' thread, rather than the MNC thread which rightfully was not the place for this discussion...So, 'Official Discussion Thread', NOT 'Official MNC Thread'... Hope that clears up the missapprehension for you... :cool:

[zerebrom]

sc, your call for "peace" might indicate, that this is missing here - I can't see that. I found a lot of interesting info here, some of it made sense - some .... well: considering that I was not involved in a lot of things very often around this forum, it's no wonder that I missed the one or other "fact" - that much for asking questions.
But: calm and peaceful - just curious!

[Stonecutter]

Hey Z! :)
Yep, interesting discussion, and yes, generally there is peace here...I was just expressing thoughts based on a long time here, and trying to make sure this doesn't go to any place less constructive than it is now... :cool:

[Grub]

Yeah love n peace sounds good, let's not pick at the scraps- dinner was yesterday. :)

[vincentducos]

Hi all,

just wanted to paste here some comment I made in a past MNC, that, I think, has something in common with Stonecutter's idea that started this whole discussion off :
Past MNC page (http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=011673&p=5)
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>and a suggestion about next contest :
let's have a plot driven challenge.
a theme instead of the typical "head
modelling" stuff. also something that
would rely more on everyone's personal
vision than on technical ability. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Would not change a comma... ;)

[Stonecutter]

Thanks Vincent! :tu:
You put it a lot more clearly than I did...!
I was trying to suggest that abstract concepts, (NOT necessarily abstract ART), would be more interesting, more challenging, and more imagination driven as topics, than merely modelling 'objects'...I meant no disrespect to anyone, but was motivated by a desire to see more 'wing stretching' in these challenges. I feel that if you have to get a 'grip' on the concept first, then decide how to depict it, there would be a natural exercising of the 'artistic muscles'...
Thanks for digging that out...(I have a feeling it might have saved some 'setting of hair on fire' in this thread, if that concise commentary was available at the beginning!) :D ;) :rolleyes: :cool:

[vincentducos]

Well, I'm happy if it serves...
Now, I'll be even happier if it serves...

:D :D :D

[Frenchy Pilou]

Hi Stone
Yes, exploration of new worlds of representation is very exiting! :cool:
You are the "Christophe Colomb" of Zland :)
Pilou

[zerebrom]

I don't know, but:
take all that has been said, put it in a big pot, boil it until all "unwanted fluids" have condensed - what do you think would remain?

Maybe I am wrong, but I can see it all leaning more toward pics that are done in a more careful way - maybe just as if this pic you are working on were the last pic that you ever would have the chance to finish!?
If that's so (I am with it in every way): hey, this here is ZBrush, a "tool" where even "unskilled" (I have no other word, sorry) folks can do something colorful. And, the majority of all those users will remain at entry level, only scratching the surface of what is possible. For the others (call them gifted, ambitious, whatever), well: you can't keep them from developing their skills anyway.
Only by saying something like "... we want more high-class thingies!!" you might change nothing and end up frustrated.

Like sitting in some ivory-tower, wondering why company is missing ....
As I said, evolving to something "better" is something that I would go for, but: this you can't demand, order - only for yourself.

And: I wonder if it is wise to do a post for this thread... BEFORE BREAKFAST :D !!
(off to get coffeined)

[cameyo]

Hi all,
i can't partecipate to IRC channel ... but i have a request for you: can you post the discussion (plain text) on this forum ?
In this way all can benefit of your insights.

cameyo

[nocturnal451]

I agree with vincent in a way, to have some theme oriented challenges rather than just overly general Monster, heads, vehicles, etc. type challenges... That would put parameters on people to create a certain theme, while still giving them freedom as to how they create and express it... I think thats a better way to have people challenge themselves... For example, instead of just saying the next challenge is monsters... When everybody and their brother here has created a monster at one time or another... Have it a specific monster... Frankenstein, Wolfman, One-horned one-eyed flying purple people eater, whatever type creature... When you place a theme and make it specific and narrow down the options of what to make, you have people creating something they normally wouldnt be making... Thats the challenge.... Just a suggestion.. Regardless, Im glad the MNC is back in whatever form it takes and while Im not able to participate in every challenge, I still enjoy participating when I do, whatever the challenge.