***** Generating Displacement and Normal maps in the next ZBrush version...

[Pixolator]

Hi :)

Since there is a lot of interest in the process of generating displacement and normal maps in the next ZBrush version, I have composed the following image which explains the process...

http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/uploaded_from_zbc/200307/user_image-1059270299uhg.gif


As you know, the currently-available version of ZBrush (v1.55b) already enables you to add fine details to dense 3D meshes. The next version will build upon this capability by introducing new features which enable you to work with even denser 3D meshes -- either ZBrush-generated (such as ZSphere models), or imported from other programs.

Those who plan to incorporate high-res meshes into native ZBrush artwork can incorporate them 'as-is' without further processing. Those who plan to export to 3D animation applications, and are interested in achieving these kinds of high-res details, can take advantage of new ZBrush features which extract the necessary displacement and/or normal maps appropriate for their animation package. This will allow the animator to use a low-poly mesh which exhibits the fine details of a very high-res mesh when rendered.

For more examples, see Dave Cardwell's (from Weta) work posted in this thread (http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=011729).

About Normal-Maps: The next ZBrush version will be able to generate normal maps for all 3D meshes; the currently-available version (1.55b) can already create normal maps of intricate -- though mostly flat -- surfaces (for such uses as in game environments: floors, walls, ceilings...). See this thread (http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=011260&p=).



The next version of ZBrush (a free upgrade to registered ZBrush users) is currently in an advanced stage of development. We are not yet announcing its release date, but you can expect it sometime in August or September. Further information will be posted as more developments arise.

Have fun ZBrushing :)
-Pixolator

[Bonecradle]

Ooh, you spoil us Mr Pixolator :)

I've already postponed several projects to make use of the new features, so those words "advanced stage of devlopment" are music to my ears.

Looking beautiful :tu:

[Muvlo]

This is beyond amazing! :tu: :tu:

I'd never have believed it would be possible to so fully interact with a 3D model... on both the millions-of-polys side and the detail-painting side. :)

It leaves me in awe. Bravo, Pixologic!!! :D

[Zendoftheworld]

Revolutionary to say the least.

Keep up the great work Pixolator!

regards,
Zendoftheworld...

[Hookflash]

Incredible! Would it be possible to show us how these low-poly models with displacement maps look when animated/deformed? I mean, can a person just bone/weight/skin the low-poly mesh and still get clean deformations in the mesh+displacement map renders? Thanks

[aurick]

Hi Hookflash. That's actually the point of displacement and normal maps -- to allow you to animate a very low resolution mesh, yet render it so that it looks like the high resolution mesh. Because it is a render process, the result is very low computer overhead and faster workflow.

[WingedOne]

Hookflash,

If you click on Pixolator's Gallery button, you'll find a dinosaur animation done using these features.

That's great news! I'll have to wait until Sunday evening to get a better look at the picture though because I'm away from home for the weekend and am stuck with my puny Pocket PC for the weekend.

With ZBrush being used for some work on "Return Of The King", you can't ask for a better advertisement than that! :) :tu

[Zendoftheworld]

Hi Hookflash,

Precisely - the main benefits of using these maps (normal and displacement) is so that an animator can sue a low poly version of a character, which gives fast interaction when posing etc.

The rendered result is the highly detailed version of your character.

See the upcoming issue of Highend Magazine for an review of this technique. Or you can see my website for a high level overview:

Zendoftheworld's Homepage (http://home.pacific.net.au/~phourmouzis/)

Regards,
Zendoftheworld...

[DMerchen]

This is quiten amazing to see. Thanks for sharing with us. :D

[Bruce Gregory]

Although this is a very wonderful function a feature of ZBrush, I believe only very high end applications can support the use of high resolution displacement mapping. Does anyone know any low to medium end applications that will support this technology?

Greg Smith

[Mentat7]

Thank you for the insights Grand Master Pix! It looks like some of my WIPS may make it off the Island of Lost WIPS thanks to these new features! :tu:

[Cedar]

Wow, that is wonderful! :D :tu:
Now if I just had the skill to be able to do that... ;)

[roger]

This looks wonderful Pixolator! :)
Are you going to be at Sigg next week and if so, are you going to be showing this??

Thanks!

[mr_exit]

Hi Bruce, the whole extracted displacement gig is still very new.... you may have to wait a while for this method of working to trickle down into lower tier, push button software.

Zbrush (with the beta) is letting you produce more detail then you can manipulate in highend 3d software, and more subtlety then you could ever paint into a displacement map. this is mind blowing stuff.

If you aren't afraid of getting your hands messy with a little renderman shading language you could have a look at the AIR renderer (http://www.sitexgraphics.com/html/air.html) or the open source Aqsis renderer (http://www.aqsis.com/)
I believe these both have a better displacement method then the maya renderer does. If you want some resources on getting started with renderman language then just yell, the simple stuff (like a basic displacement shader) is rather straight foward

-James

ps. hey dave!

[mr_exit]

right. found it.

have a look at Malcolm Kesson's great site, his cutter software is a must for writing or hacking apart shaders or mel code.
http://cmpa.ca.scad.edu/faculty/kesson/Ca301/

If you can catch Malcolm on the conference circut, he gives a great shader writing tutorial

[aurick]

Poser 5's Firefly renderer is actually a micro-poly renderer, and has a displacement channel. So there is at least one low-to-mid range application that supports the technology.

[Mahlikus The Black]

First off, amazing as always Pixologic! :tu: :tu: :tu:

Second, as to other, lower-end apps using such displacement, couldn't a plugin be written to allow such a thing. For C4D or Max?

[upham]

Oh Magic! Really Magic! How in the world can you top this one in upcoming versions?
:tu: :tu:

Also I noticed the unwrapped 16bit displacement map isn't AUV-tiled! Sign of things to come??
Upham :)

[Antimorph]

My belief is that society should give very large prizes to innovators like pixologic. Scientists and Politicians are lauded for qualities of mind and for achievements that scale (at least in terms of difficulty and endeavour) to insignificant fractions of the accomplishment inherent in something as magnificent as zbrush.

We should be naming schools and streets after Pix and Co. Such people are the role models I'm interested in, books and documentaries anyone?

I hope Pix and Co get very very rich, I'd feel anything else to be horrifyingly unjust.

cha cha cha

[grassynoel]

Oh god I can't wait. I have just been trawling through this process the long way and having limited success.

check it out. (http://www.3dluvr.com/glenn/tuts/displacement-tut/displacement.htm)

Well done Pixolator from a complete convert.

Grassy Noel

[marciani]

Hi Pixolator, very interesting upgrade.
But i have a question:if i understand well to achieve a final model in a low resolution like yours, if i follow yours step, there is a moment which i have a very very dense mesh ( 1,1 million), then if i haven't a very fast cpu, your gol is hard to reach.
I thought to reach this goal i only need paint over a map around a low intensity model....
If i write somethingh wrong please forgive me.
bye
Leo

[Skaven252]

Looks truly amazing!

I'm also wondering about the same thing as marciani... I fear that editing a 1.1 million polygon model could be very slow. I got the impression that the displacement map only becomes visible in the Best Renderer mode? Or is it actually possible to paint onto the low-res model's displacement map in ZBrush - does it have a fast preview mode for displacement that looks like bump mapping or such?

All in all, looking incredibly promising. Can't wait! :D

[TVeyes]

I've learnt from my past mistakes and now I allways have a paper cup handy before viewing Pixolator's threads. You know.... for the drool.

Seriously looking forward to the next version. It is going to be such fun. Top notch paper cup stuff :tu: :tu:

[Eventide]

As I understand it, Poser's Firefly is based on Pixels3D Tempest renderer (REYES with micropolygon displacement). It runs only on Mac though and it's in the same price range as Poser.

Chris

[KenH]

@ marciani

I've used programs that allow loads of polys at very usable speeds. I've got a mid range PC. I assume Pix have streamlined the code to do this. In any event, you will only need use it while you model...say the facial features on a sphere. Once this is done, back you go to the low poly sphere with the displacement map on it giving you the same look. Displacement maps are now a standard in any 3d program worth it's salt.

[Hookflash]

I am confused. That image has been *displacement* mapped, right? So, what's the difference between that and normal mapping? Thanks

[aurick]

The new version is optimized to allow the editing of very high numbers of polygons without bringing a user's system to its knees. So those of you who have voiced concerns about this do not need to worry.

Hookflash: Bump mapping moves rendered pixels along the camera's Z axis. This is why it is less convincing on surfaces that curve away from the camera. Displacement mapping also allows the movement of polygons or rendered pixels in one direction, but that direction is in relation to the surface of the model -- 90 degrees perpendicular to the polygon's surface, to be precise. Normal mapping, on the other hand, modifies the direction that points face, which in turn affects the amount of light received and reflected by that point. Displacement mapping actually gives the truest representation of the surface.

Hope that clears things up a bit. :)

[Hookflash]

aurick: So, normal mapping doesn't actually modify the geometry? Doesn't this result in a faceted silhouette, like with bump-mapping?

[Ctrl-Z]

hookflash
My understanding is that the use of Normal mapping alone (as is done in realtime gaming applications like Doom III or Halflife 2) does indeed leave you with a low-poly silhouette.

Displacement Mapping adds geometry at render time (conforming to whatever mesh deformations your animation has already applied). This changes the silhouette, but each new polygon's surface normal mimics that of the low-poly model's face it's derived from. Lighting and shader calculations are thus lacking detail.

Used together, you essentially re-create the high-poly reference model. New polygons are created, each facing the proper direction.

There'd obviously have to be some sort of optimization involved, new polys only appearing where more detail would be evident. But, that's implimentation - it'll be different in every application.

Don't quote me on that, though. The science may be very different from my fantasy...


upham
I think the unwrap we're seeing is based on the imported .OBJ file's UVW map. Which is great - this process doesn't interfere with your workflow in that other 3D software.

But, I don't think it means we should get our hopes up for ZSpheres dynamically unwrapping to an intuitive photoshop-ready surface, much as that would rock.

[RUNEMASTER]

Hi! What do you mean by hacking apart shaders.Is that like removing the 16 bit greyscale displacement map.If so any tips on how to hack a shader appreciated.

[Northstarr]

wow! this looks like what I have been wanting to do since I started with zbrush. But the truth is I really don't understand the concept of maps period never mind displacement maps! I hope there will be a good tutorial with the next version that can explain to me how it works in terms that I can understand so I can use it. So far I haven't found any information that I am able to assimilate. Maybe I am slow, or maybe I just haven't caught on yet???

:( :o

[DeeVee]

You guys at Pix never fail to amaze me! I do not want to get too excited..I will wait for the delivery day..This is just sooooo good. Thanks guys, you are tops!!!

[andreseloy]

I am in the same situation Northstarr and want to propose that in this period until the new version release to make in the forum (guiding by the expert team Pixolator, Zuzu,Davie,Aurick) a didactical presentation for update and understand everything related about UV mapping:utility,types ,aplicattion, indication,etc...a sort of "online program update" that begin with the very basic concept each one ilustrated with examples...
I am sure that the "permanent helpers" give us some light in this field because i suspect that new version is a technological revolution in UVmap and animation among other aspects¡¡
This of course has to be considered by the administrator related to the viability od this propotion.
Thanks for your attention

[Reyd]

what is the difference betweeen a highend and a low end program, I thought Zbrush and Poser were high end programs?

[Stonecutter]

It's a matter of opinion, Reyd... ;)

Generally MAYA, LightWave, 3D Studio, and SoftImage are referred to as 'high-end' programs...They cost a lot more, usually thousands of dollars, have radiosity, true reflection, volumetric lighting and materials, animation capabilities, real-world lighting and refraction...You get the idea... :)
The trade-off is that they are VERY technical, and demanding to learn and use, and can tend to make the process of art more like 'double-entry bookeeping' than the immediate nature of the process that ZBrush offers.
On the other hand, the tools in ZBrush seem to work well with most 'high-end' apps, and as a LightWave user, I find that it is possible to use ZSphere building for instance, to short-circuit the process, making a quick model for refining elsewhere...Some here, use LW or another package, to do the rough model, and then detail in ZBrush...Sort of 'use whatever works' right? :D ;) :cool:

[aurick]

ZBrush stands on its own as a very powerful application for creating still images. In fact, because it is a paint program powered by a real-time 3D rendering engine it could be considered to be much more "high end" than other paint programs.

In addition, it supplements most any animation workflow very effectively. There are many, many 3D tasks which ZBrush can do faster and/or more effectively than the packages which were designed purely for animation. Since time=money in the world of animation, programs like ZBrush which save time are well worth getting to know!

[sirquadalot]

I'll second that! :tu:

[Mentat7]

I'll third it!! :tu:

[Calypso]

I've had Zbrush for like forever. I remember seeing it at an expo and being dazzled by the presentation, and how lovely the apple was. :D
But it just doesn't 'click' for me. I hang out mostly at Poser forums, and a great deal of users find Zbrush hard to get into & understand. But give me Bryce or Vue or Photoshop or Painter. They seem intuitive in different ways.
The script tutes are nice, but I don't learn by watching things happen passively... I've tried to print out stuff, and sometimes that helps, but I don't have a printer at home. :D
I just don't know. I've been frustrated no end, but I hate to give up.
In the long run I'd love to create and texture my own 3d models. In the short run I'd like to use Zbrush with Poser. Morph targets, textures, and if at all possible, hair & clothes.
But at this point... well, it doesn't seem likely. :(
But one can always hope for the future.

BTW, Poser 5 was out for the PC over a year before the Mac version came out. hrmph. I'm still using Poser 4, and a great deal of people are hoping that Daz Studio will improve and expand upon what Poser does.

[+Lazarus+]

I too found Zbrush a little overwhelming at first, but now feel it's more like a second appendage that just needed a little execise to build up it's strength and bring feeling back into it. Perhaps get rid of that horrible pins and needley feeling.... You get what I mean.

Most apps out there tend to mimick each other in layout and features, so that, when you know one, you know em all. ZBrush, however, is so original and unlike any other app in features that it would be hard to have it feel and work like other apps, too.

My comment to anyone is always 'if you suddenly found yourself with a tail, you might not like it at first, but just look at all the cool things you can do with it... Like lifting skirts of gorgeous women without laying a hand on them'.

Actually, I don't say that, but it does have a ring of truth in this situation. ;)

[MaxF]

Hi

When does this come out and how does one make a map.


:)

[Frenchy Pilou]

Be patient and take the time to training with the other features of Zbrush :)
Pilou

[aurick]

Hello MaxF. An official release date has not yet been announced. When the new version is released, tutorials will be included for how to make use of the new features.

[Fouad B.]

hi all!

this post seems to me very interesting, and the functions of displacement mapping, make it possible to work the details with much precision, only I do not understand all (yes Google has its limits) the French community could it have a clearer translation? I I believed to understand that it is about a function which would be implemented in the next version of Zbrush, is this good that?

[Frenchy Pilou]

Hello Fouad
C'est tout simple :D
Il suffit de regarder les images :)

On modélise un petit modèle 3D de rien du tout tout léger, tout rustique :)
On le sauvegarde !
Puis on "divide à donf, on ajoute une foultitude de détails, un nombre pas croyables de facettes,
on "smooth" à re_donf :D
Une fois que c'est fait on presse un petit bouton (enfin je suppose) et Hop! :cool:
Une magnifique carte haute définition de "Bumpage" est créée !
Il suffit de la "remaper" sur le pauvre petit modèle 3D de départ qui lui est en "low Polygoning" !
Et voila miracle, un même aspect visuel pour un object 3D super léger prêt pour l'animation !
Et tout cela dans Zbrush!
Ai-je été clair ? :)
J'ai tout compris je pense sauf évidemment comment pixo calcule sa carte ! (nobody is perfect) :rolleyes:
Ni combien de temps cela prend !
M'enfin cela à l'air terrible!!!
Je ne comprend pas que d'autres logiciels n'y aient point pensé !
Have happy Zbrushing!
Pilou
Ps
Evidemment ne pas rater ceci (http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=012018) qui explique cela :D
Pilou
Un rapport de 1 million de polygones à 281 c'est de la démence !!!

[Fouad B.]

oui, pilou :) je connais le principe du displacement mapping ( qui existe dans les autres logicels egalement, soit dit en passant) je l'utilise sous 3dsMax,
notement Final render qui comprend une fonction similaire.
seulement cette technique rassemble apparement le Displacement mapping + le texture Baking puis qu'il garde les mailles en basse resolutions.
mais merci neanmoins de repondre :D
je n'ai pas pratiqué l'anglais depuis un moment et j'ai du mal à m'y remettre.. :D

[Frenchy Pilou]

Donc j'en savais encore moins :D
Nobody is perfect again :)
Pilou

[CGDude]

:D

[pshenk]

Hi, this thread may have died away, but I've got a question about the original image posted here. What tools were used to create such a clean, sharp definition in the straps wrapping around the torso? It almost looks as though there is a way to have a tool only add a certain specified "additve amount" to an object. In other words, to not have it keep adding with every stroke. The way I'm using it now, it seems like it would be pretty hard to get such a clean, precise object.

Thanks for your help :)

Phil

[aurick]

There are two tools that were used.

In Projection Master mode, the Single Layer Brush was used.

In Edit mode, the Single Layer transform brush was used.

Hope that helps. :)

[aminuts]

check out the zscripts ......it shows how but not this particular model. the sword one shows all.