To all established artists who ignore us Newbies [Archive]

meanboythecat

10-08-09, 07:12 PM

I've noticed that all the comments and critiques seem to go to the established members of this community

You professionals should offfer the same amount of crits and advice to those who are not as accomplished as you yet. it's looking to me like this board is becoming a back patting opportunity for 3d elites. Everybody sucked when they started out, and honestly, it's kind of discouraging to post something, get like 200 views, and no replys: not for silly attention, but I beleive that established artists should give back a bit: if you see a model that's obviously beginner, COMMENT!!!! How hard is it? What works? what doesn't? what would you suggest as a method?

Like I mentionned previously, everyone sucked at first, and everyone got better by receiving COMMENTS, CRITIQUES, and POINTERS from better artists.

When one works one's butt off, does the best they can at their present skill level, presents their work, and gets ignored all around..................very discouraging. Makes us wonder if we are wasting our time.

Must be nice to have been born a superstar zbrush artist.

KrisKelly3D

10-08-09, 07:18 PM

Agreed

Bingo_Jackson

10-08-09, 08:20 PM

Bitter much? ;)

If it makes you feel any better, I tend to ignore everyone with equal opportunity.

By way of advice though, I would just tell you to keep practicing and improving. When you're posting regular work of high enough quality, you'll start attracting more attention.

magbhitu

10-08-09, 08:21 PM

Dude, i'm in the boat your talking about - not established, not amazing, pretty much ignored, but I disagree with your sediment.

Propose a solution to the problem you're wining about.
The obvious solution to me is to start writing fair and insightful critiques for your skill peer group. Hopefully you will find they will reciprocate in kind.

If you care to review my posting history, you will find that that is pretty much what I have been up to since joining.

I do not begrudge the fantastic artists on this forum not commenting on every stray post (mine inclued). Participation in this community is voluntary last I checked. As a teacher I can appreciate how hard it is to diplomatically admonish the work of folks less skilled than yourself. It's just not naturally something people are inclined to do without an exchange of value.

dk79

10-09-09, 12:19 AM

I couldn't agree with you more meanboythecat.
But as I found out myself people aren't so hot at giving critique.
You can be polite in your posts and be detailed in descriptions but it won't get you much attention.
People usually browse this place when they're working or they just want to relax and enjoy some pretty pictures. So when they see someone who needs critique
they might want to give some pointers but they're too bored to do it.
You better invest on some online course or something and just try out stuff as much as you can.
It's better to hear a critique from your teacher rather than little or no comments.
If you keep posting stuff here you'll only get disappointed by the lack of interest.
Try to get that extra push you need to keep working on it somewhere else. You family, your teacher, your colleagues.
And don't overestimate these kind of sites. People produce a very specific kind of art which isn't much of a big deal.
Don't get me wrong. It's amazing to see some great anatomy or some awesome huge monster. But you can only go that far with just that.
You only have one piece of the puzzle, and that's just about it.
So don't just focus on the creation of one amazing super sculpt. You need the whole package. Composition, colour theory, etc etc.
Don't stress over it too much. Most of us are in the same place you are so relax and enjoy the ride!!!

Morph Division

10-09-09, 12:20 AM

no comment is a good sign you need to improve...btw the only way to improve is to make those crits yourself ;)

Bingo_Jackson

10-09-09, 02:17 AM

I feel bad about my first comment, as I may have been a little too flippant. While I won't be goaded or guilt-ed into giving you crits (I owe you nothing, and it is not my job to train you as an artist...not that you'd even want me to...I am remarkably average), I will give you some general reasons why some people receive little in the way of feedback.

1) People wouldn't know where to start.

There is a threshold on work where it stops being a matter of "I think you could improve this, and this", and it becomes, "Go study anatomy for a year, fill up a few sketchbooks, and come see me again".

Also, try to resist the urge to post every early stage of your work. Post work that is more refined and less soft, where you have really committed to form. It makes it easier for people to latch onto specific aspects. There is little to critique or comment on about a soft lump of playdough.

2) You must attract people's attention.

People don't owe you their attention...you must steal it ;). Some subject matter is going to stand out more than others. Warhammer-esque game characters, fantasy heroes and monsters, Hyper-muscled superheroes, and space marines in power armor, in T-poses, are all good fun , but you must understand, they are a dime a dozen now a days, and tend to bore people. If you want to attract attention with that kind of subject matter, it had better be *really* good.

Give some thought to how you want to try and make your work stand out. Consider not posting a Tpose. Put a lot of thought into a pose, and how you want to imbue that character with an abundance of personality to try to make more of an impact on people. You can post a Tpose to try and get anatomy feedback, but try to keep in mind point #1. Consider a settings for your character. Consider color, texture, design...anything that you think you can "hook" people with. How are you going to "sell" your work?

The more remarkable the work you post, the more likely you are to draw people's attention, the more likely you are to get feedback. Once people start looking at your work, the more likely they are to continue looking at subsequent work you post.

Read this post about how to make thumbnails that attract people's attention:

http://www.pixolator.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=73639

If people aren't clicking on your thumbnails, they aren't commenting on your work.

3) Don't confuse being a novice to the software with being a novice artist.

Not everyone "sucked", as you put it, when they first started with the software. Prior to that, they had spent *years* developing as an artist, and that experience showed in the new tool they were using.

Students that enroll in art classes in college (where they *pay* people to critique their work and train them, as opposed to here where people owe you nothing) are not beginning artists. They have already spent years of study on their own. Have realistic expectations and an honest appraisal of where you are. People don't just pick up a guitar and start producing output that is suitable for critique in a matter of weeks or even months. This hearkens back to point number 1.

4) Don't make expectations based on reaction to popular/established artists.

They have likely paid their dues in some fashion, produce work that attracts attention, or maybe they are just popular because they get all the girls. Life isn't fair. Either way, you cannot use them as a metric for the type of of attention you think you should be getting. Each case is different, and the internet is a strange, random place.

5) Nobody here owes you anything.

There are ways to make a name for yourself, and attract more attention to your work, and solicit feedback for your work. Making a whiny rant post about it is probably the opposite of the way you want to go.

cherub_rock

10-09-09, 02:42 AM

What 3D elite? If anyone thinks he's elite he's a moron. Perhaps people with jobs don't have enough time to comment on everyone's submissions.

And people will always confuse novices to software, I got used to it, because they don't know what you know. Perhaps showing your art...but no, I tried that as well ;) Some people are pigs, they bite and don't let go even if you're on top of your game. C'est la vie, and I think it's ok.

Gordon Robb

10-09-09, 02:50 AM

Bingo_Jackson

10-09-09, 03:06 AM

I can only comment from my perspective.

I rarely post anything unless I think it's finished, or I want some help/advice/nudging. The biggest problem with this site, as compared to other sites (non Zbrush) I post on, is that there are too many members and too many posts for people to notice things.

I have said this many times before, We need a part of the site that is either dedicated to beginners/learners, or even WIPs. That way, the busy, professional, experts can dip in if they want, or stay clear of it if they don't. But I think it would result in more people commenting from an advice/support point of view.

Just my opinion but there it is.I agree that I would like to see a separate WIP forum and a "finished work/making of" forum. But I don't think it would necessarily result in more feedback on WIPs...it might even result in less, as many people may not go out of their way to view "unfinished" work.

At the end of the day, life isn't fair, and there is still just a law of the jungle at work. The truth is that there is simply a level you work must reach before it starts attracting much serious or useful feedback...let alone praise. I've certainly learned this the hard way, and posted my share of goose eggs over the years on various sites. That, in itself, is a learning process that everyone goes through.

You must *earn* attention for your work...even to get it critiqued... and believe me, you wouldn't want it any other way.

In the meantime though, if you really, really want a crit, it would be best to make a thread with that in the title, like "Please Crit My Anatomy". You can't rely on people clicking through your thumbnail, as it is quickly gone, and it may not interest casual viewers.

industripop

10-09-09, 03:27 AM

Who gives a **** man? Really? Are you bitching about pros on this board not responding with insightful crits to every single "work in progress" you post? Guess what dude, they have jobs in the industry and don't have time to respond to every single little thumbnail that pops up in the second row on the almighty ZBrush Central. Get better with the tools and seek out advice on your own. Pissing and moaning about people that have fantastic work will get you absolutely nowhere. Take all of that time and energy it took to post this thread and get better as an artist if you want to get some attention.

If you're plopping all of your proverbial eggs in the basket here at ZBC, and getting hurt feelings because nobody raves about your work, then maybe you should seek out a new endeavor. Thin skin isn't going to serve you well.

dk79

10-09-09, 04:01 AM

Relax man.
He was polite, you don't have to be so aggressive.

Bingo_Jackson

10-09-09, 04:15 AM

Relax man.
He was polite, you don't have to be so aggressive.He wasn't that polite. His post was laden with sarcasm, bitterness and
and entitlement.

Polite is "Hi, I'd like to get a little more feedback on my work than I'm getting right now...any tips?"

What we got is "it's looking to me like this board is becoming a back patting opportunity for 3d elites", "COMMENT!!!! How hard is it?", and "Must be nice to have been born a superstar zbrush artist."

neozerahan

10-09-09, 04:21 AM

guys wat meanboy is saying doesnt look that agresive to me......comon i m 19...and sometime newbies like me who dont have proper guidance or cannot afford these things happen ...its nnormal..he not accusing the better artis.(my fav is alex oliver.)....he might just need sum help....or sum guidance....imajine learning a car by all urself....agreed that we can do that...but humans have tendency to sum times burst out their thoughts and thats wat he did....it would be better if we people just help him....instead of yelling at him.....at the end we r all humans...we all think the same....
peace...
meanboy work hard and hard and hard my friend.....crits wil com when they have to....

cherub_rock

10-09-09, 04:26 AM

industripop

10-09-09, 04:50 AM

The fact that he posted a new thread just to complain is going to get some fire. The reason artists get positive attention for their work on ZBC or any other forum, be it online or in the real world, is because they absolutely deserve it. I'm not being aggressive, I'm trying to lay it out the way it is. There is certainly nothing wrong with seeking guidance. If you're looking for advice on how to be a better artist, in any medium, then you learn by asking the right questions of the right people. Or...god forbid...learning something from the countless threads posted by the "3D Elites" explaining exactly how they achieved the pieces that earned them the top row status here.

I don't know...maybe the thread was just started out of frustration. Ughh..who cares.

danko75

10-09-09, 05:02 AM

I can only comment from my perspective.

I rarely post anything unless I think it's finished, or I want some help/advice/nudging. The biggest problem with this site, as compared to other sites (non Zbrush) I post on, is that there are too many members and too many posts for people to notice things.

I have said this many times before, We need a part of the site that is either dedicated to beginners/learners, or even WIPs. That way, the busy, professional, experts can dip in if they want, or stay clear of it if they don't. But I think it would result in more people commenting from an advice/support point of view.

Just my opinion but there it is.Agree totally with Gordon, the main problem is that being this site a very big comunity sometimes even lot of great works (the kind of you look at them and ask yoursefl why nobody replied) disappear from the images row in minutes, and for the same reason every user cannot go digging through every single post to look at all the works posted. Being said that, it's the same obvious that every great artist post calls a lot of feedbacks, simply bacause, as said by someone else, all those artists already paid all their deeds to be this sort of nucleus of attention.

troy1617

10-09-09, 05:08 AM

a word of advice this is not the way to get attention if anything its good way to be ignored or get a whole lot of flack back from the zbrush community..

the only advice i have for you is you get back what you put in..
little to no effort means scant or no comments..
alot of effort and dedication then the work stands on its own...

and im sure all of us that have been here for a while no what i mean by that..;)

Disco Stu

10-09-09, 06:14 AM

Everyone here at some point learned this by himself.
The mayority probably without internet.

Times were never better for someone to improve his technical and artistic
skill.
You have 4 mayor 3d forums, you have countless genius works free to view
in many cases you have a work in progress thread for it, you have countless
tutorials, you can read gazillion gabillion critics on work that is not that strong.

If the lack of critics in your one thread on one 3d forum is holding you
back to improve as an artist you have a wrong reason.
If your motivated by a true passion and fun with 3d work you should
be well able to critic yourself by comparing to other artists.
If your not willing to put in that bit of effort you should understand that
most people who have learned it through effort and lots of trial and error
wont be to keen to extensivly comment on your work as they know you can
find out most obvious things yourself if you decide not to take the path
of blaming a lack of comments for a lack of dedication and work.

Heck the first comment i ever got i gave myself because i was so pissed
but what gives with time you will maybe get better
and you will have more people that know you on the forums.
If you participate that is.

cheers

scottleroc

10-09-09, 06:58 AM

I think Disco Stu ha summed it up but I think others on this thread have offered some very useful advice. It's hard to get started on ZBC and it makes you feel like you have failed when you don't get a comment. I understand it can make you feel low because of the time you spend on a piece that no one seems interested in. You CAN'T let that get you down.

I always say turn you negitive passion into positive passion and take it out on your work. There are many talented artists on here who will eventually help you out but you need to get to know people :D

It is the hardest board to get any respect on and people crit very harshly sometimes BUT that is the main reason I stick with ZBC because it is so hard to get noticed.

Oh and I am an artist who is not technical (I have only really used Zbrush in a commercial sense for about 1 and half years) I try hard to translate my traditional skills into 3d and sometimes I DO fail :D

As some of the others said - start a sketchbook and start it for you. Don't think of it as gathering fame and respect use it as a tool to learn and every now and again a 'zbrush superstar', when he or she is not busy, will leave a comment ;)

Finally I will just say when you do get advice it is very good on here so stick with it.;) :tu:

magbhitu

10-09-09, 07:09 AM

I'd like to third or forth the WIP forum idea. It's a great suggestion, that I hope the moderators take seriously. Education is something I always found to be pretty strong within the zbrush community, but perhaps the WIP forum idea would expand the encouragement and critique aspect of that mission.

looga

10-09-09, 07:18 AM

i kind of like the current setup, with the two rows of thumbnails in one main room.. but i can see your points for a separate wip room

@meanboythecat: keep your chin up man, and make sure through hard work and good attitude that you don't get swallowed by the sea

take care

Maxmate

10-09-09, 07:24 AM

samar vijay

10-09-09, 07:33 AM

wow... Entertaining thread !! lol
looks like Meannoy got more attention from starting this thread rather then his sketchbook thread. ha ha
u could have tried learning and improving ur skills instead of wasting ur time on such stupid discussions.
plus the thing that makes me laugh is ur joining date.. its say "2005"
how come u be a newbie :P
BTW i will be keepign an eye on this thread,, loved prople views on this discussion

farazmobin

10-09-09, 07:40 AM

TOP ROW FOR SURE :tu:.

Bingo_Jackson

10-09-09, 07:48 AM

I HAVE AN IDEA!!! Zbrushcentral should have a rating system that rates how well people give critique to others. If your rating is too low, you can't post your own stuff. So everyone who wants to show their own work is forced to contribute."Yeah, sorry Rick Baker, I know you're all busy and stuff being a Hollywood Makeup and effects industry icon, but you're not allowed to post any more top notch work here helping Pixologic show off the power of its software and educating the community by answering questions about how you did it...because some 15 year old is angry you didn't spoonfeed him years worth of experience for free on his Hellboy model..."

Here's another idea. Why don't we get over ourselves a little bit,worry less about what other people do, and concentrate on our own work.

tonysculptor

10-09-09, 08:00 AM

First of all, think about this:

There are tens of thousands of posts, and a handful of good artists. How can they possibly comment on every piece of work posted. It would be a full time job.

Secondly, as an artist when I see great art that is better than mine I don't get depressed, I get motivated and analyze what they've done and improve my own work.

So please stop whining and step it up on your own. I've spent well over twenty years of my life honing my art skills before zbrush existed. Its just another tool in my art arsenal - it doesn't make me a good artist - it allows me to express myself as an artist.

One more thing: You are not a newbie - according to your profile, you have been using the program since 2005.

Crotalis

10-09-09, 08:13 AM

"Here's another idea. Why don't we get over ourselves a little bit,worry less about what other people do, and concentrate on our own work."

How dare you try to use logic and reason in an internet discussion ... :p

Seriously though, I think that's the best thing I've read so far. Thread won. Can we close it now?

sadicus

10-09-09, 08:28 AM

There have been many times someone has posted, I missed it and only dicovered their amazing work months after the fact, noob and Pro alike.

Sometimes a post gets overlooked. Here is my sad story example ;)
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=75363

Although I can't rule out that perhaps it is not wothy of comment. :rolleyes:

mangaboy

10-09-09, 08:33 AM

I agree with you, Ive been an artist for 40 years and just now getting into the 3d design and get frustrated trying to learn everything so i can reach the level im trying to get to, I became pro artist i am now just by alot of hard work and advice from other pros and my Father who was an Artist,No i feel like ive started all over again like i did on my very first drawing but its 3d and so pumped up by what we can create with it and where it can take us, So yes everyone had to start at the bottom at some point and now they are on the top of the hill looking down at others,,Thanks

dk79

10-09-09, 08:34 AM

@sadicus
What a shameless plug!!!

Maxmate

10-09-09, 09:22 AM

"Yeah, sorry Rick Baker, I know you're all busy and stuff being a Hollywood Makeup and effects industry icon, but you're not allowed to post any more top notch work here helping Pixologic show off the power of its software and educating the community by answering questions about how you did it...because some 15 year old is angry you didn't spoonfeed him years worth of experience for free on his Hellboy model..."

Here's another idea. Why don't we get over ourselves a little bit,worry less about what other people do, and concentrate on our own work.Your dumbass comment proves you don't understand the issue. You are totally distorting my idea with your little anecdote. I didn't suggest posting would be totally denied. You'd think posting some c&c for beginners wouldn't be that big of a deal for masters like Baker, but I geass its too much for their huge egos.

"ME??!! COMMENTING SOME NOOB'S ****TY WORK??!!! HAHAHAHAH!!! YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING ME!!"

sadicus

10-09-09, 09:43 AM

@sadicus
What a shameless plug!!!I agree. ;)

G-Dub

10-09-09, 09:49 AM

Hardly,
No offence to anyone intended but it looks to me as though the people on here getting zero replies need to pay their dues in art school 1st.

It usualy looks like these people can't draw and have little to no clue about design and concept and are just trying to use something like Z-Brush to make hobby art.

Which is fine, but it's laughable that you demand pros to go over your work with you.

Why should they give up their time to help someone who hasnt even put in time themselves?

People work hard and pay thousands to learn in art schools from masters....and you expect it all for free on here\/..

Honestly you are lucky to have a place like this to learn from and expand your ideas....and if you get the chance to speak with a professional about your work consider yourself lucky.
the

scottleroc

10-09-09, 10:17 AM

Errr didn't the ZB gods just extend the bottom rowor am I going mad? :D

Intervain

10-09-09, 10:17 AM

If anyone thinks he's elite he's a moron.I can definitely agree with that... art is too subjective to call anyone the best or any image the best ever... it's nonsense.
I try to comment on stuff from beginners as well as professional artists, whether I do usually depends on the subject matter - there are amazing [quality wise] sculpts that I don't care about in the least, cause the subject just doesn't inspire me at all. So yeah if some beginner is doing something exciting to me, I'll comment just as well as if he/she was a pro. Anyway there are a lot of hobbyists who can be just as good at this as some pros..

thing is... very often newbies constantly argue that the mistakes are not mistakes but 'what they wanted to show' or simply don't try to work hard enough to improve... it happens... if you post constantly, without caring about comments, and your work improves then comments will come. We all started somewhere - those who are pros are usually those who persevered despite the lack of comments and worked on their stuff every day. simple.

Bingo_Jackson

10-09-09, 11:20 AM

Your dumbass comment proves you don't understand the issue. You are totally distorting my idea with your little anecdote. I didn't suggest posting would be totally denied. You'd think posting some c&c for beginners wouldn't be that big of a deal for masters like Baker, but I geass its too much for their huge egos.

"ME??!! COMMENTING SOME NOOB'S ****TY WORK??!!! HAHAHAHAH!!! YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING ME!!"
Zbrushcentral should have a rating system that rates how well people give critique to others. If your rating is too low, you can't post your own stuff. So everyone who wants to show their own work is forced to contribute.Dumbass indeed.

Nobody owes you anything. Worry about your own work, and be grateful for any feedback you get.

sadicus

10-09-09, 11:26 AM

Tuff Crowd.
BTW, did you actually post anything for comments?
maybe I missed it.

ncollings

10-09-09, 11:32 AM

... We all started somewhere - those who are pros are usually those who persevered despite the lack of comments and worked on their stuff every day. simple.

That's pretty much my story ^^

Dman3d

10-09-09, 12:13 PM

Most people wont answer for a few reasons but one is certainly attitude.
If you look at some noob post they get incredibly pissed off or just blow off any comments even though they asked for them.

If you ask for a crit be prepared. If you dont want a crit dont ask for it and just post your stuff to share.

The other thing is, it just might suck that bad. That is something that is hard for artists to deal with.

These guys are good, I dont expect them to drop what they are doing to pat me on the back or give me advice. If they do great I appreciate it, no ones owes me anythings and me or no one else is entitled to ****.

All you can do is keep working and expanding your perception, yes perception and skill. Once you can see through things you can understand and make them.

-d

sadicus

10-09-09, 01:17 PM

Dman3d
good point indeed.

AVBN5000

10-09-09, 01:41 PM

In many cases, as stated from prior posts in this thread, people are trying to train themselves via online videos (youtube, veoh, etc), and could potentially getting frustrated because they do want to do high quality work but just arent achieving it. I know my workflow in zbrush is all over the place and it can be frustrating. Sadly I havent posted anything yet because I feel that it is not up to par. I, myself, want to practice more before getting something on this forum just for my sanity.

I would also like to know for the people that are trained where they got their training from. I live in an area that currently doesnt offer any zbrush training via classroom.

Also, the critiques that are the most supportive are ones that give a method, a concept, an idea, and potentially take it a step further and actually give out a file or a zscript showing the workflow. That is the most helpful in my opinoin. Seeing others workflows help me the best because at least i can see where they are struggling at times and know its not just me thinking too much inside the box. I am all about optimizing my time and I always feel like im doing it wrong even though i am getting the same outcome. Some things I feel shouldnt take me as long.

Anyways back to the topic, listening to others is also a big way of getting noticed. There was an artist that I spoke with a number of times that was gracious enough to talk about a concept i needed to do. I hadnt posted anything but i had an idea. He didnt hold my hand through the process but he gave me some tips that in the end lead me on a "better" track...but I just didnt think it should of taken as long as it was. Either way, it was the simple matter of me needing to practice and experiment more. Learning the background of 3D art is a great start. I have a Degree in Maya but when it comes to Zbrush its a whole other ball game, at least on the surface.

Most of the posts I've made try to give some kind of insight of info or help but I am no expert and no where near an elite artist. Hell, I haven't even posted anything yet!

Gordon Robb

10-09-09, 02:04 PM

A couple of things..

I am not saying that I want the 'handful of good artists' to comment on my work. My point is that becuase there is so much work being posted, good and bad, many threads just get missed. I have had threads with a good number of comments, and threads with next to none.

For me the benefit of having a WIP or Noob part of the forum is that people will actaully choose to have a look, and if they have, they are more likely to post.

The other thing I think is that this is a Zbrush forum, but a lot of people seem to think it is an Art forum. Now sure, there is some fantastic art, but a lot of people her are not all about form and composition of the image, they are creating a 3D asset that will only evern be rendered in an other package.

I love this site for finding inspiration, and for learning from tutorials etc, however, I honestly do not find it as useful as other sites for crit and advice (and that doesn 't have come from the hand full of good folks).

Anyway, bring on a WIP areas I say.

CrazyMatt

10-09-09, 02:10 PM

I'm not going to read all the posts on this thread, but what I will mention is this.

Not a lot of Zbrush artists that may be of quality or top row. Use the computer as much as "you / demand a critique" user does.

If you are already demanding crit's for work that you have done. It tells me right now, that you are spending way..... too much time on you're computer, and are not spending time elsewhere.

I mean, sure it's discouraging. But fact is, you are trying too hard at the point of where you are not taking time to breathe. Which is almost as sad as seeing some 30 year old act like a spoiled 12 year old. Which no one wants to be remembered or recognized as. Try freeing up you're time, and do something where the computer, and you're art are of low priority.

Get a girl, or if you're a girl, get a guy! :D

jamespthornton

10-09-09, 02:43 PM

Seek out training and you'll get better. Most comments won't promote progress nearly as much as lessons. Find books and video training. Get them on ZBrush of course, but also on drawing, painting, and sculpting in traditional mediums. Also pay attention to how the contrast of hard surface and organic modeling can make the art more convincing.

You'll be rockin the forum galleries before you know it. :tu: :cool: :tu:

Atwooki

10-10-09, 07:37 AM

AVBN5000

I would also like to know for the people that are trained where they got their training from. I live in an area that currently doesnt offer any zbrush training via classroom.My own most useful training was as a professional traditional artist for 30 years before ZBrush: portrait painter, draftsman & sculptor.
Learning these skills will boost your ZB skills no end.

If you live in an area that currently doesn't offer any zbrush training via classroom, you can learn anything online for free about ZBrush
(as many here did, including myself), aside from being dedicated, by diving into the software and endlessly experimenting.

splodge

10-10-09, 07:44 AM

If you can't see the faults in your own work then you're never going to get it.

I'm fully aware of the faults in my stuff and I don't need somebody pointing them out. Not everybody strives for perfection.

If you want people to comment on your work then do something that compels people to comment. After all, do you really want to be patronized by people with empty words?. When you have people automatically saying "Oh that's nice" like programmed robots then the words will have no weight. That's when we'll get forum threads titled "Say it like you mean it!!".

You get what you're given in this world. You can't ask for a ego stroking, you have to earn it.

Maxmate

10-10-09, 08:19 AM

If you can't see the faults in your own work then you're never going to get it.That is a load of bs.

I don't get you guys who argue people should learn on their own. Where would man be today if the ancient tribes had taken your advice?

"No son. I'm not going to teach you how to make these arrowheads that are critical for our survival. Learn on you own!"

Intervain

10-10-09, 08:34 AM

bicc39

10-10-09, 08:44 AM

New guys should not expect posts because their work is too bad.

Talented guys should not expect posts because they intimidate.Unless
the poster is looking for a job with the artists company and wish
to kiss a portion of the artist's anatomy. In this case the talented
artist cannot trust the post.

Middle of the road should not expect posts because they are not
as good as older but better then new....Unless it looks like they
will be getting a job in the industry, then the talented rule applies,exception
is that the poster works for the same company and wishes to get the
artist fired.

Posts should be polite, so as not to insult, but not too polite because
it will be deemed to be demeaning

Posts should not be polite, to teach and be honest,except if the poster
is looking for a job, wishes to be liked and/or hired than the polite rule
applies.

Poster wishes people to post to his/her crap, so posts glowing to all
submissions.
Words such as kewl should be used unless the work is good, then
you cannot post unless it is the third Monday of the month.

All posts that end with the letter r will be deleted.

Just want to make sure I understand the rules

jamespthornton

10-10-09, 10:16 AM

Hey I like the new ZBC layout! More bottom row thumbnails will equal more views for newly posted art, which may lead to more advice for newcomers. Just be sure and make the best thumbnail you can. That's the trick. There is advice on this somewhere, maybe in the main forum or Q&T, don't recall.

splodge

10-10-09, 11:04 AM

splodge

10-10-09, 11:35 AM

one cannot learn just on one's own - the thing is, one has to actually listen to what others say and not argue as soon as a shred of criticism appears in their thread...which unfortunately happens with a lot of newbies [I hate that word!]I think one can learn on their own. You can't be told how to draw a horse. It's all just practice.. But I suppose it's possible to be shown general techniques to help draw/sculpt/create things in general. Although this can't be taught in a comment on a forum.

From being a child everything I've ever created I've been aware of the flaws and yet I just couldn't be bothered to correct them. Or in many cases I couldn't correct them because I'd drawn the item in ink! So it was actually irratating to have somebody point out the flaws. I just used to think "Yeah, I know!! Shutup already! I don't care!". This is why I don't criticize other people's work because I assume they're also aware of their flaws. But if they aren't then it's hopeless for them.

Gordon Robb

10-10-09, 12:37 PM

Have I missed something. I don't have a new layout. I only have thumbnails at the top that are the 'top row' threads. do I have to set something up to see thembnails of new stuff?

bilster666

10-10-09, 01:02 PM

Id just like to say that im a newbie and my work isnt that great. I have never posted anything of mine on the site for fear of embarrasment. Seriously when you see some of the stuff here its unbelievable the level of detail the realism, and the form. I also see other newbies like myself posting stuff, i dont see the point really just look at some of the good stuff and read the comments and critiques about thoseand then try and get a better idea of what you need to do. I know its gonna be a good while until i make anything worth posting.

On a second note. yeah i probably would post something if there was a newbies section, but until then ill leave my efforts for my own criticising until i KNOW they are as good as i can do without any help.
:)

bicc39

10-10-09, 01:15 PM

Anybody know the weather in Detroit?

skullbeast

10-10-09, 01:16 PM

You have to sharpen up and do some homework. reference. nobody was born a good artist. reference. It comes from what you can visualize and produce. reference. skill comes with practice. do it once. then do it again faster. then do it again with no mistakes and faster still. now your employable. I sure as hell don't have time to respond to everyones work. and thats because Im doing ARTWORK INSTEAD. I actually sat down and read this whole thread. and I was not planning on saying anything.... enjoy your saturday fellow zbrushers! :idea: :D

jamespthornton

10-10-09, 01:22 PM

Just remember that with ZBrush, hard work and persistent study truly does pay off. It's not always like that with everything in life, so keep your eyes on the prize! It's there, I promise!

Have I missed something. I don't have a new layout. I only have thumbnails at the top that are the 'top row' threads. do I have to set something up to see thembnails of new stuff?

You have to be in specific areas of the forums, such as the main or question and trouble shooting section, to see the two new bottom rows of thumbnails. They have also redone the main top section of the whole site. I dig it :tu:

Bingo_Jackson

10-10-09, 02:11 PM

That is a load of bs.

I don't get you guys who argue people should learn on their own. Where would man be today if the ancient tribes had taken your advice?

"No son. I'm not going to teach you how to make these arrowheads that are critical for our survival. Learn on you own!"You are not my son. I don't owe you anything. You certainly havent paid me for my time, and Ive got other things to do. If your work happens to catch my attention, and if I think there is something *specific* I can offer you beyond "Study Anatomy", or "Go practice drawing or modeling for years like everyone else remotely successful had to do before they started getting noticed", then I'm generally happy to do so.

But even if I weren't, that would sill be fine, because life isn't fair, it doesnt revolve around you, and the cold hard truth is if your work were remarkable enough to attract attention (and therefore, feedback), you would be getting it. I've had to learn this, and work to get to a certain point where people at least bother telling me my work sucks ;) ...why doesnt someone else?

Nobody is arguing that people should, or will, always learn on their own. We are just more realistic about the level at which work starts to get attention, and what experienced artists *owe* to beginning artists. Knowledgeable feedback has *value*, should be appreciated when it is received, but not expected for free. The most talented artists on this site and elsewhere charge good money for their time and feedback, in training courses, and why shouldn't they...they had to work really hard, and invest a lot of money in getting their own abilities to the point where their feedback had that kind of value.

We are also realistic about the purpose of this site, which at its core is a corporate site devoted to promoting and supporting a commercial product. The fact that people can also learn from other artists here is a happy secondary effect, but there are better places in life, and on the web to do that. There are (non product specific) forums out there dedicated expressly to giving artistic feedback to people, on an entirely volunteer basis. They are populated by people who hang out there *soley for that purpose*, whereas people on this site have myriad reasons for being here.

The fact that you would ban high profile artists from promoting their work here ( and teaching others by answering questions about how they did it), if they don't live up to your imagined standards on how much or how high a quality of feedback they're giving to every 15 year old who just picked up the software... shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the primary purpose of this website, not to mention a massively swollen sense of entitlement.

You can call me a dumbass again if you want, but I'm speaking as someone who dedicates a significant amount of time answering the questions of other users (mostly new users) about the software, and "how to do x" in both a technical and practical sense, every week, and have been for years. I'm generally happy to do it, but I don't *owe* it to anyone. If your commitment to helping people in the community doesn't at least match my own, you should probably quit running your mouth about what you think some artists "owe" other artists here.

AVBN5000

10-10-09, 02:22 PM

Cloudy with a slight chance of apocalypse. :-)

Morph Division

10-10-09, 04:42 PM

get back to work! <img src="http://www.zbrushcentral.com/pixo/atn.gif"> (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/faq.php?faq=vb_read_and_post#faq_zbc_display_image s)

Dman3d

10-11-09, 09:24 AM

I think what splodge might be eluding to is that you cannot help someone percieve something or somehow give them instant awareness.

I most everyone can absorb the application of a tool. A brush and paint for example.
You can show and have understood that you dip the brush in paint, certian amounts of paint, or paint mixed with something and when you use it at differing pressures and angles you get varying results.

What you cant easily convey is that realization of the application or the steps before and after it that come with either and in born freaking gift or long practice and experience.

You can make endless tutorials but the conveyance will not be instant.
Everything takes time.

I have been doing art for a long time. I suck at it, but I love it. The one thing I have certainly learned that simply looking at other work will not make be better.
A new tool or software will not make me better. The only hope is to keep
practicing and attempting to understand what you are looking at more clearly.

You must "see through" the illusion you are attempting to make. To know that
if I use this tool them destroy some of it with this tool, then use this tool on
top of it I get stone or bone or whatever.

So, like before if you want a crit better be ready for it. If your first response
is to be offended and be like this http://www.flickr.com/photos/sagespot/566145002/ then no one can help. (yes I brought a lolcat kitten to the rant)

So yes bummer no one gave responses. Want some, ask again if you must and be ready. Be ready for the hit, be ready that you may not "see" it. Be ready for more practice. Be ready to be humble, be ready to get over yourself and get to work.

Mikeporetti

10-11-09, 07:27 PM

If not getting comments makes you think your wasting your time then you are, and you should quit.

I'm no pro but I got what skill i do have by burying my head in my desk. I posted just as you do, and received little to no feedback just as you claim.

Shouldn't this motivate you to do better?

Nobody can say they haven't heard the golden advice, "use reference". And if by some miracle you have yet to hear it... there you go, I just said it!

...Now go make something.<img src="http://www.zbrushcentral.com/pixo/atn.gif"> (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/faq.php?faq=vb_read_and_post#faq_zbc_display_image s)

TrackZ

10-12-09, 06:37 AM

I don't know, I think you can learn on your own if you have drive and an enquiring mind. To be honest this line of work is all VISUAL, which is skills we all have so it as a matter of unlocking them.

Being honest I never learnt anything from college/uni, I am totally self taught, you will also find many people who work professionally who don't have qualifications.

On the issue of posting, if experienced people don't reply to posts its probably because they are busy or, to raise the touchy subject of "look at the reference" - unfortunately it's something which new artists often miss. If you are doing a likeness of say Brad Pitt and your end result doesn't look much like him then I'm afraid I wouldn't post a reply, it should be obvious it doesnt. However, if the likeness was nearly there, maybe I would post a reply as they are obviously on the right lines. The same goes for glaringly obvious anatomical flaws that should be picked up by the artist themselves.

bicc39

10-12-09, 06:43 AM

In conclusion: if you want crits then that is OK but do not expect that others have a duty to do this as it is a pure gesture of kindness if someone takles time to make a comment. Most of the people I know are really busy and just can not afford to spend time on such stuff.

Thank you Mr. 77, could not have put it better

Disco Stu

10-12-09, 06:51 AM

ysKopie.jpg (javascript:zb_insimg('161955','ysKopie.jpg',1,0))
Please sir can i please have some more comments please

splodge

10-12-09, 06:56 AM

Please sir can i please have some more comments please
Yeah.. It sucks!.

Kenmasters

10-12-09, 07:01 AM

If not getting comments makes you think your wasting your time then you are, and you should quit.

I'm no pro but I got what skill i do have by burying my head in my desk. I posted just as you do, and received little to no feedback just as you claim.

Well said I think. Everyone should rely on their own motivation, that's if they are really serious about cracking into the industry. If such a thing as lack of comments put you off now, you're not going to survive when you're working in the industry that's for sure. No one's gonna hand-hold u and just like all artists who have made it, you've gotta take massive action on your own and make things happen - that's if you want it bad enough.

Ken

dhasian

10-12-09, 09:53 AM

wow....

cj3d82

11-04-09, 01:00 AM

Eh I get very little comments here and on CGTalk when I post stuff. However for those that are defending the pros by saying they have industry jobs, they're always busy, and they don't have to comment on every thumbnail. That goes back to his original point that they have time to comment on each others posts and give feedback but not the less advanced? Not trying to complain myself, just making that point.

I agree on most aspects of the original argument though, that the pros do spend a lot of focus on their "peers" when it would be nice of them to give a tip here and there to us "lower class".

I also tend to look at it this way: If nobody comments then that means they recognize that your model is coming along just fine, you seem to know what you're doing, and their is nothing for them to say that you probably won't figure out. I mean why comment on something that's obvious with a little more study and research on your own right? So, it's best just to think about it differently, chill out for awhile, maybe even ask your friends for a crit. Honestly I hate using the word peers, but ask your "peers" for crits.

Also, I just want to point out how funny it is that a thread started about how nobody comments on the guys work is getting bombarded by comments and critiques for how to start an asking for comments and critiques thread lol. At least you got some feedback now :p

CJ

sadicus

11-04-09, 06:46 AM

Maybe it's like Extra Terrestrials.They won't show themselves until humanity has a paradigm shift in consciousness and achieved a new level of awareness.

:: Struggling artist = Humanity
:: Extra Terrestrials = Zbrush Elite, you know they are out there, but you don't hear from them or see them
:: paradigm shift in consciousness = The ability to learn the basics in Art, and ZBrush
:: new level of awareness = "I don't need you help, but thank you so much If you decide to comment"

So imagine the newbie struggling artist that hears encouraging words, from the right person, and that inspires them to do do better than if they had learned trial and error all alone. They take that experience and return with it to ZBC and do the same for others. (I feel this happens already because there are so many helpful artists here at ZBC, professional or not!)

The worst is doubting yourself, not knowing if you are doing a task wrong, OR if it's a bug in the software.
you don't want to reach out for help just yet and waste ( insert name_Auricks _time lol) at the same time your using your best new age logic and whatever your trying just will not work, and you don't have 2 weeks to hope someone will reply to your posted question. Then you find out the software is at fault.

apologies for the ramble, I have not yet had my Coco.

Disco Stu - :lol: good one!

wayniac

11-04-09, 07:15 AM

I think everyone goes through this initially. It SHOULD be a motivator for you to keep pushing yourself until the pro's DO comment on your work. Instead, we get whiny posts (imo) complaining about the professional's not giving you a cookie every time you throw up a thumbnail. Just keep your mouth shut, keep plugging away and eventually you will earn the respect and time of those who did the same before you. There are a TON of pro's who contribute to the online community and this thread is (imo) a smack to their face. Get over yourself and get to work already. If you're passionate you'll get somewhere in this business. Plain and simple.

cj3d82

11-04-09, 06:18 PM

Sadicus: Extra Terrestrials! lol Nice!

CJ

Mr.Storm

11-04-09, 06:57 PM

jamespthornton

11-04-09, 09:23 PM

I also tend to look at it this way: If nobody comments then that means they recognize that your model is coming along just fine, you seem to know what you're doing, and their is nothing for them to say that you probably won't figure out.
Unfortunately this is not necessarily true. When you really know what you're doing, you'll usually get some comments.

That doesn't mean take it so damn serious, though! Even if you're wanting to do a professional job, the real goal is to have fun and experiment! :D

However, the fact is everyone has to improve on their own and find ways to study. Seek out training and tutorials rather than depending on freakin' forum posts. C'mon, that's not the solution.

This thread is just misperception combined with a little frustration, that's all.