Maya or Max for next-gen characters?

[nero5150]

Hi, I'm about to jump back into 3d art after a couple year hiatus, and was planning on using 3d studio max and starting to do some freelancing. So I'm free to choose between the two. So I was looking at the Gnomon dvds on their website and noticed that most if not all of the character modeling dvd authors use Maya. Anyone doing high-end modeling want to comment on that? Thanks.

[malc2304]

To be honest most of your work now will probably be done between Zbrush and a tool like Xnormal.
Either 3D application can be used it depends which has the tools you are most comfortable with you will find it is just mostly used for refining your low poly mesh, laying out UVs and rigging if you will be doing that. you could also look at something like the XSI mod tool which will offer everything you need and is free

[Jester]

And I suggest to move on Softimage. Because I hate May anad Max. I hate Max more than Maya, so if you like piuck up Maya :)

[Benj Wheeler]

I agree with malc2304 that a program like zbrush for characters especially, is what you'd want to be using most. Max or Maya are there basically for finalizing the character for the engine, applying maps (some created in Zbrush), and rigging. Seems like you may be more interested in Max so go with it. I started on Max and can work twice as fast constructing polys than on Maya. But I really like how Maya handles texturing and rendering though. One is better at some things than the other so it depends. Definitely Max I'd say, for its quick work flow.

[Intervain]

And I suggest to move on Softimage. Because I hate May anad Max. I hate Max more than Maya, so if you like piuck up Maya :)hahaha - I'm with you on that - Max is the messiest of the lot. Maya's not too bad, though there is some mess in the UI as well, but that can be adjusted. And unfortunately Maya's isolate selection tool sucks in comparison to the XSI one. They have added a lot of XSI type modeling tools to the program lately so it went up in my estimation ;)

but yeah most gaming houses use either Max or Maya. XSI is mostly used in film production [I lucked out and get to use it at work every day hehe]

[Disco Stu]

I agree.
Coming from cinema 4d i found maya better than max even though its still
a very intricating ui.
Max with all his modifiers makes no sense to me.
I just want to move polys after selecting them i dont want to add
some edit poly modifier first!
Makes no sense to me.
Maya in combination with Nex moddeling tools is quite nice.

@Intervain: Did they get you a xsi license because you prefered it or are all ppl at ubi (if youre still there) working with it?

[Clappy71]

The new version of Max has Polyboost integrated and offers the same poly editing and selection tool set as Modo or XSI. It also has a cleaner interface than previous versions.

NEX for Maya is great (one of my favorite purchases), but does not offer as much as the new Max Polyboost (or Graphite) tools in its current version.

Max 2010 also has a Shift Tool which works the same as Zbrushs Move brush (its like soft selection on crack). You can also convert curves into poly cylinders (seriously handy).

Download both trials and see which one you like best.

Good luck,

MC

[Intervain]

@Intervain: Did they get you a xsi license because you prefered it or are all ppl at ubi (if youre still there) working with it?I'm at Ubi's film studio [Ubisoft Digital Arts] and we're all using XSI here. The ingame guys use Max

Clappy71 - that's interesting about those Max changes.

[rimasson]

What's the best way to extract normal maps for a next gen character ?
Zmapper ? XnNormal ? Xsi, Max or Maya ?

Does a nomal map used in Unreal engine for example render best when generated with one of these app ?

[malc2304]

I find Xnormal to be the easiest personally as you can take your highres in without having to load it into a viewport also if you split your lowres you can just do it in smaller parts to avoid problems with the projection. Plus it can do AO as well as other stuff and has its own model viewer. Oh and lets not forget it is free. My second choice would be Ultimapper in XSI

[Intervain]

personally I'm using XNormal as well. XSI's Ultimapper does a good job but it's rather slow in comparison IMO, especially if you want a big map. I love XNormal mainly because of the AO - it's fantastic for texturing.

[rimasson]

Does Xnormal generate maps with smoothed Uvs ?

[Disco Stu]

I think it does.
I bet the programmer bites himself quite often for not charging money for it^^ everyone seems to use it.

[TrackZ]

If you like poly modelling then Max has best tools at the moment with Graphite. Agree with the xnormal comments - thats all you need really.

[Intervain]

fair point, haven't thought of those companies and didn't know that Capcom was using XSI ... good for them :D

[jaystein777]

XSI and MAYA are what I would choose for next gen game development, come to think of it I would have MAX on hand too. So basically all of Autodesks technologies.

[Disco Stu]

How about cinema 4d ^^ Does the same thing exept for having
a very stupid normal map baking technique.

[jaystein777]

That's funny, we just got cinema 4d at the TV station where I work, it's a nice little app. Also I didn't wan't to come across as an Autodesk fan. I neurotically tell myself that Alias is still developing Maya and that XSI is still an Avid product. :D

[Disco Stu]

Yeah i guess its the main market it has right now.
Its mograph module is very good for those kind of things.
Its also a very nice for everything else but not many people use
it for games or movie work so its lacking some plugins and
things specific for character work such as max´s fast skin shader and
biped rigging system.

[jaystein777]

Yeah i guess its the main market it has right now.
Its mograph module is very good for those kind of things.
Its also a very nice for everything else but not many people use
it for games or movie work so its lacking some plugins and
things specific for character work such as max´s fast skin shader and
biped rigging system.

Well the advantage of Cinema 4D is that it has nearly complete integration with After Effects, not sure exactly how yet but since AE is the tool of the trade right now I can see the benefits from such an App. I am mainly a Maya user but if it makes things easier I will happily learn C4D.

[Disco Stu]

I guess if you dont plan on going into motion graphics
youll be happier with maya i guess.

[jaystein777]

I guess if you dont plan on going into motion graphics
youll be happier with maya i guess.
Well, I think knowing as many programs as possible is always better.

[maddox.br]

I started on Max and can work twice as fast constructing polys than on Maya. But I really like how Maya handles texturing and rendering though.
Then you really should've spent some time tuning your Maya interface, 'coz there's nothing in Max that can make you model polys faster than in Maya once you customize the interface. That's the one thing that befuddles the most people that try Maya, you really have to take your time and setup your shortcuts and hotboxes 'coz the default settings, tbh, suck hard. Now, I come from a super-strong Lightwave background, with all its friendliness and "fun of use", there's no way I'd use something slow and clunky as people advertise Maya to be. On the contrary, I found Maya to be actually much more organized in its structure and way more consistent in its tools and feature layout than Softimage. Maya is damn fun to use, not to mention exceedingly productive, once you "tame" it. If you really want to compare it to 3DSMax, which I think it's quite non-sense btw, try making a mental picture of a Ferrari (maya) going against an old beetle that was turbo-charged (max). The Ferrari is a much more sensitive machine and sure, the monster-tuned-up beetle might even beat the Ferrari on a straight line, but once the first turn comes you'll be glad you've got the Ferrari :) There's actually no turn this baby can't tackle with grace.


If you like poly modelling then Max has best tools at the moment with Graphite.
That Flow thingy in Graphite is kinda cool, yet not much more than a souped up smooth mode. People are over-hyping it imo.


Max with all his modifiers makes no sense to me.
I just want to move polys after selecting them i dont want to add some edit poly modifier first! Makes no sense to me.
Does it make sense to *anyone*? I think people just get used to how it does things and move on without ever really thinking about how stupid some workflows are. How about adding an uvwunwrap modifier just to check on a UV map? :rolleyes: At least even Max users admit its texturing tools are a joke, and bad ones at it.


Maya in combination with Nex moddeling tools is quite nice.
After version 2009 enhancements default Maya can do pretty much all that Nex can do, and what it can't, there are free scripts to do it (like auto-reload of textures). I've used Maya, Lightwave, Max, Silo and Modo for modeling, and so far I haven't found anything as powerful and productive for poly-modeling as Maya.

[maddox.br]

I like XSI myself, at least the front-end of the interface. I just found it to be very confusing, or should I say disorganized, once you delve into its feature set. Having dropdown menu lists that extend beyond my screen resolution doesn't transmit any resemblance of organization and streamlined workflow to me, although many will swear by the opposite.

Maybe it was just me that couldn't quite adapt to XSI, but Maya still definitely proved to be a much more organized, thought-through product.

[Clappy71]

Let me preface this with Maya is a sweet app and I love it, but, it is still missing some key features that NEX and Max offers:

1) if I insert and edge loop, or use the cut tool, with Maya's native symmetry, it won't update on the other side. You can only translate components around currently. You could just work on half the model with a sub-d proxy for the other half, but that is an extra step.

2) Quaddraw for retopology: Nex offers you some of the same retopology tools as Silo, 3D Coat, or Max 2010.

3) Edge loops which conform to the curvature of your mesh. If you insert an edge loop in Maya you get flat spots. In Max, if you hold down shift your edge loop will match the surfaces curvature and you get no flat spots.

Maddox: if there are scripts for these, or something I am missing please let me know as I would love to know where to find them.

Cheers,

Matt:cool:

[Xsmoke]

How can anyone compete with Maya's marking menus?
I feel like a magical man when using marking menus.
Just the motion of my hand can pick,select,render,swap
and do anything my mind can come up with.It's not hard
to memorize since you create them.

I wish all appz would intergrate this method of selection.
Including "ZBRUSH".It would easily replace Lightbox in a way
cooler way! So until someone comes up with a faster more
conveniant way of doing this, Maya is my best pick.

[Clappy71]

Max has Quad menus - exact same thing as marking menus. I am sure XSI has its own version.

Zbrush can do the same thing as well - just look up how to create custom menus and map it to a hotkey,

Cheers,

Matt

[maddox.br]

You could just work on half the model with a sub-d proxy for the other half, but that is an extra step.I just use a mirror instance, works just fine and takes only one click to setup tbh. I haven't seen a single implementation of symmetry that works 100% flawlessly, even Modo screws up the symmetry when using some tools, at least when I use mirror instance I know that I'll only have to do things once and not worry about symmetry ever breaking.


2) Quaddraw for retopology: Nex offers you some of the same retopology tools as Silo, 3D Coat, or Max 2010.I've used Silo and 3DCoat's retopo features and sure, those "1-click" quads are cool, but you can do them in Maya using a more precise three-click method (modify->make live; edit mesh->append to polygon tool [limit points to 4]) or a two click process (select edge; edit mesh->extrude). Pretty quick to do if you have your shortcuts set up in a handy fashion. As for the 1-click quads, I always find myself having to manually tweak their vertices after creation, so I don't see much of a point other than the "fanciness" factor.


3) Edge loops which conform to the curvature of your mesh. If you insert an edge loop in Maya you get flat spots.True, slice options aren't "live aware" in Maya, at least not up to 2009 version. I don't find it hard to snap the points later on with the new "tweak" feature, but hopefully that oversight will be improved soon.

Once again, I'm not saying Nex isn't a cool plugin, it definitely is, I just don't find it mission-critical, at least not after the last Maya versions improvements. Nevertheless if you're heavy into re-topo you should definitely go for it.


We XSIers don`t really need them, as our hotkeys are customizableWow, custom hotkeys? Seriously? :cool:

Sorry, j/k ^_^ I find marking menus to be really cool but they're overused by the majority of users, who actually lose productivity that way. If you use a function more than once a minute you should *definitely* have a straight, easy to remember, preferably one-click shortcut for it. Things like switching to the main selection modes (vertex, edge, polygon) for instance, and by all means keep it close to your power hand natural rest position, things like F8 or F9 definitely won't cut it.

[Sebcesoir]

MAX IS BEST FOR NEXT GEN GAME CHARACTERS!!!!!



Ok now you can shoot me if you want!

[maddox.br]

BANG KABOOM TDDDDAAAAAAA!!!!!!!

OK, you`re deadx2. Just to make sure :P