Tired of the "wow" , "amazing" comments on mediocre work...

[Codeman]

Does anybody else get irritated by the constant false praise going on in the forums (not just here)?

Over and over I see a hundred replies to a mediocre piece of artwork. They praise it and give little to no real feedback. Often saying things like WOW and AMAZING when niether of these is accurate. Although it is relative, mediocre art is mediocre art.

While encouragement and positive energy can be good, in this case it really is just promoting medicoraty.

The main reason for this post is to decide wether I should continue to offer opinions and constructive criticism on pieces, or just give up. What do you think?

[leandroloaiza]

almost all the comments for the other members are like critics and recomendations for the "rookie" posts (almost all the current members), only the novices make good comments for the novices posts...you must now it!. :lol: :lol: :lol:

apologize my poor English :D

[Xenier]

definitely keep offering criticism and opinions. As a newer artist myself, I dont want people to tell me my art is amazing and perfect (although it makes me feel good) I would much rather be told what is wrong and how I can improve it, otherwise I'll never become a better artist. So keep up the criticism!

[mokthemagicman]

Amazing comment. ;)

[Codeman]

Amazing!

[Facenna]

Do what you want to do, and let others do what they want to do.

Don't try to be judge and jury - neither of someone's work, nor of the validity, sincerity or suitability of their comments.

Opinions are simply opinions - give them, or don't. Listen to them, or don't.
Nothing to make a big deal about.

[Codeman]

Don't try to be judge and jury - neither of someone's work, nor of the validity, sincerity or suitability of their comments.
I love irony.

[SebastianWunnicke]

My opinion: Honest and sometimes hard critics are much better as false praise and the best critics are these you don´t want to hear.

[Facenna]

I love chocolate.

[Disco Stu]

I guess the reason mediocre art is being praised is that there are
a lot of zbrushers that couldnt do better.
So they take these kind of works as perfect because its maybe something
they could achieve.
Its not to hard to spot the talented people that take sculpting serious and offer those constructive
critisism.

[Codeman]

I know I have gotten some sharp feedback in the past, and yes it isnt something you want to hear, but damn it really makes you a better artist!

[Dman3d]

I agree with DiscoStu and facenna,
I love chocolate too...

and..

Alot is WIP and getting a feel for where you are at before going all the way.
Maybe there should be a WIP and a Complete section to the forums?

Or a blog like area to show your stuff and another to directly seek crits?

-d

[bicc39]

Speaking as a relative beginner, with your attitude, perhaps
silence is best.

[Codeman]

Speaking as a relative beginner, with your attitude, perhaps
silence is best.
I am confused by your comment, can you explain it?

[spaceboy412]

codeman:"While encouragement and positive energy can be good, in this case it really is just promoting medicoraty.
I know I have gotten some sharp feedback in the past, and yes it isnt something you want to hear, but damn it really makes you a better artist!"

um, if everyone critiques something, or a piece gets lots of critique, how is that not moving towards mediocrity and that status quo ("hey i made a troll, hey i made the hulk/wolverine, etc").
it is art, the rules are only suggestions, academia has screwed all this up. if every artist did what their peers suggested all art would look the same. is mideval art bad because they didn't follow the laws of perspective? is picasso bad because he drew eyes on one side of the head, would you tell him thats wrong?
shouldn't it be about promoting creativty and the outlet of expression, for that is what makes us all artists. art, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, should we cater to our audience, and if so, should that be other artists, or the common civilian, because there is a big difference in perception.

also, i too love chocolate.
and i would love to see a subforum just for sketcbook threads and once again allow the main forum to be about individual pieces.

in b4 tl/dr, as facenna said, its all just an opinion anyway.

[markkens]

I love irony too, especially when it's spelled "medicoraty"...;)

[Gordon Robb]

I have said this before in these forums - to no avail.

The problem is that ZBCentral has in its members an unsurpassed wealth of experience and skill, it's just almost impossible to get any feedback/advice from anyone.

Loads of the members are fantastic artists, and I love looking at there work. However, some of the members are newbies, hobbiests, 3D guys rather than artists. What this place is sadly lacking is a place that is dedicated to either newbies or WIPs.

Just my opinion. Now where's 3.5 ;)

[bicc39]

The main reason for this post is to decide wether I should continue to offer opinions and constructive criticism on pieces, or just give up. What do you think?

You should not, silence is best.

whether....just mentioning

[Sandman79x]

dude i read some of your past posts...and you have done the very thing that you are talking about right now.

In my opinion, it would be best for ones own personal energy, to not judge other peoples opinions, especially if they are encouraging ones.

I myself have commented on other peoples "mediocre" work simply to encourage them to keep working on it. That is how you get better. Not simply by crits and feedback, but by passion and pursuit.

also "mediocre" is a relative term. what you think is mediocre could be very inspirational to others.

it reminds me of a wolverine vs hulk piece that i saw on these forums a while back. The artist was obviously new to zbrush, and the work wasnt the best. but what i saw was potential, and passion. this guy created an entire scene in zbrush, and that is to be commended. even if its not rick baker quality.

as well as the guy who set the goal of 4 characters in 2 weeks. he set a goal and completed it....it wasnt the best, but he now can move on to the next project with more experience, that gets my support any time.

so to you....i suppose....do what you feel like :)

[slocik]

I myself have commented on other peoples "mediocre" work simply to encourage them to keep working on it.this

I guess the reason mediocre art is being praised is that there are
a lot of zbrushers that couldnt do better.
this


um, if everyone critiques something, or a piece gets lots of critique, how is that not moving towards mediocrityand this

I think zbrush central isnt the palace to get good feedback, i have the bigger problem with somthing elese. Wheneevr someone makes a comment he thinks some work isnt good, there is a 50% chance that a flame war will start, with ppl butting in. Ive seen this many times, and it actually happened once to me ;f Its like many ppl dont really want to hear anything besides amazingand wow, great work.
Also the idea with a separate forums for complate and wips will fail, just look at other portals where they have it, the complete section is pretty much always dead. And considering 99% of stuff posted here are doodles, it would just create another subforum where ppl wont come in.

[Kravit]

This is why I stopped posting WIP :)
Too many newbies crits. I personally find it hard to take crits from inexperienced artists. But I'm not saying all Newbie crits arnt valid.

So I'll just post final Art, Stop me from constantly replying and justifying why I made something a certain way.
Plus you waste a lot of time replying on WIP forums, when you could be doing work :P

I've been member since 04 and only have 137 posts :P

[Bingo_Jackson]

Does anybody else get irritated by the constant false praise going on in the forums (not just here)?

Over and over I see a hundred replies to a mediocre piece of artwork. They praise it and give little to no real feedback. Often saying things like WOW and AMAZING when niether of these is accurate. Although it is relative, mediocre art is mediocre art.
Wow. You sound like a lot of fun.


Did you ever consider that...opinions might vary? If somebody likes something, by all means they should say so.

Hopefully, people that are soliciting crits and feedback should be able to receive some that is useful, but getting worked up because someone else likes something that *you* consider "mediocre" is fairly petty.


I generally find that the most talented and successful artists are not very concerned in a negative fashion with what other people are doing. They certainly don't lose any sleep over someone else getting a compliment. Since that seems to work pretty well for them, I've always considered it a good philosophy to emulate.

[Morph Division]

i think most of what would be deemed medicore, is made by people craving attention for their work...really they're just fishin for free confidence boost.

they don't want to hear neg crit because their not use to it and don't know how to handle it.

The people who think they shouldn't say anything because maybe they couldn't do better, lack the keen artistic eye for detail which is a skill needed to be an artist.

although i think its a fair arguement that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, realistically it isn't the case.

personally the most useless comments happen when senior or ''famous'' artists post their work and you have to wade through noob fan drool to see the image.

don't get me wrong, its great to see the good and the bad, but 99.9% of the time the brave noobs who post and tag on ''crits welcome'' are lying.

ok now i need my happy anti-jaded medicine...and to kill a few innocent zombies online

[ISK-86]

You should critizice...


even if you're a noob:

"I love this piece, the pose of the character gives him a great sense of strenght and power... the muscles look so freak'n good and the expression gives a final touch"

or a pro

"The artwork is really good, but I think that you should focus a little more on the sense of weight, the muscles of the leg should be under a lot of effort with a character of that weight... the facial expression complements really good the pose"


But not if you're a "Forum jumper"

"Wooow, thats an amazing work!"

Ctrl+C...


(Forum, jump)

Ctrl+V

"Wooow, thats an amazing work!"

(repeat AdLib)

I think the real trouble lies in the lack of attention or time from the ones who critizice... if the time is taken to give a real crit of an artwork, no matters if a noob or a pro is critizicing a noob or a pro.... there will be someone that learns from the critic.

[holto]

I would be very careful what you wish for.

I would say the character and spirit of this post can easily answer your own question.

First of all, if you think everything that's art should be technically (in your ideals and archetypes) perfect, maybe you should consider engineering instead.

I think if someone asks for a crit give it to them. If it's obvious they are trying very hard, but just can't do the amazing things that some of the group can, well then you have to make a decision between giving them encouragement/criticism that's relative to their skill level and potential or telling them that maybe they should consider another form of expression. I would say that that's a hard call to make considering how much is based on personal preference.

Sometimes a piece that isn't technically great may be truly inspired or capture an overall atmosphere or effect. It may be amazing to some while other find it does nothing for them.

Art is about many things. Whether they overlap or come in groupings isn't relevant. Any one thing can stand on it's own if it's effective in that one thing.

Also what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If you decide to be overly blunt and crude about someone's attempts be willing to open yourself to that same thing.

Some people react best to gentle motivation while other crave knowing all the gory details and feel that all criticism is good criticism. I find it's best to deliver everything with a bit of tact.

But now that you have shined such a hard light, I would hope that you are open to that same scrutiny.

If you really want to test your awesomeness with a group of fairly blunt folks, go post your work at conceptart.org. You mind find yourself longing for the slightly more nuanced approach of fellow zBrushers.

Cheers,
holto

[lemonnado]

I am confused by your comment, can you explain it?

Later today BICC39 will explain his comment in the form of an expressionist dance. After that he will answer your personal questions with high pitched screams while knitting the ZBrush logo.

Lemo

[Disco Stu]

hmm now i cant decide what i look forward to more... zb3.5 or bicc´s
performance.

[cherub_rock]

I guess the reason mediocre art is being praised is that there are
a lot of zbrushers that couldnt do better.
So they take these kind of works as perfect because its maybe something
they could achieve.
Its not to hard to spot the talented people that take sculpting serious and offer those constructive
critisism.And you would know? Oh the ego :lol:

On to the topic. Yeah I was like that, all reactionary, but it's a fight you can't win. Stick to what you do best and don't bother is what I'm doing.

[Atwooki]

Later today BICC39 will explain his comment in the form of an expressionist dance. After that he will answer your personal questions with high pitched screams while knitting the ZBrush logo.
Great news Lemo!!

And for those wanting to crit the forth-coming spectacular:

'Fanboy' crits: post ONLY on the LEFT-HAND side of the thread
Serious crits: post ONLY on the RIGHT-HAND side side of the thread

[joshmathews]

Hi Facenna,

I like this your comment.But I am not getting last statement.Please explain me in detail....Do you have any example for this statement???

[Disco Stu]

And you would know? Oh the ego :lol:

On to the topic. Yeah I was like that, all reactionary, but it's a fight you can't win. Stick to what you do best and don't bother is what I'm doing.Come on its obvious and it has nothing to do with my ego, its simply the
ability to seperate a sculptor with understanding of form and volume
from the hobyist that is happy to do what he likes.

[QFStudios]

Does anybody else get irritated by the constant false praise going on in the forums (not just here)?

Over and over I see a hundred replies to a mediocre piece of artwork. They praise it and give little to no real feedback. Often saying things like WOW and AMAZING when niether of these is accurate. Although it is relative, mediocre art is mediocre art.

While encouragement and positive energy can be good, in this case it really is just promoting medicoraty.

The main reason for this post is to decide wether I should continue to offer opinions and constructive criticism on pieces, or just give up. What do you think?Art is very much an personal view and opinion. One persons beautiful piece may be another persons ugly piece. This is true for traditional art and 3D art.

So its hard to set an overall standard which all can be compared equally.

Most of the time I notice the opposite of what you mentioned (where crits are given to pieces that really seem like they dont need it and it is clear that the creator shows/has artistic talent). Now if the crits came from someone who, for example, had been doing this for 10+ years in the industry then the crits are good and constructive and should be noted through their years of experience. But most of the time I notice that novices give the most crits, and their points are medial or are about such small things that it really doesnt matter.

But then again, sometimes someone may see something that someone else missed or didnt notice.

[bicc39]

1. The answer to the personal question is to fake it and move your hips.

2.Does anyone know where I can rent a snake and/or ostrich feathers?


One has to look their best, doesn't one?

[Blaine91555]

Why stop there when you can go all the way with a Carmen Miranda, banana hat? You have got to get creative to stand out in a crowd.

carmen_miranda.jpg (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:zb_insimg%28%27157471%27,%27carmen_miranda.jp g%27,1,0%29)

[MudboxRules]

Picasso also had top row realistic art, and medieval drawings were made before art advanced very much as a whole, so I don't think that's a fair comparison. imo, this creativity and self expression would only result in good art if the artist has good fundamentals down first.

[bicc39]

flip this:D

[Svengali]

Start populating your IGNORE list.

Sven

[jamespthornton]

There are both positive and negative ways to give feedback. Constructive criticism helps even the most experienced artists. Many of the best had to let go of their egos to achieve such a level.

Artists new to a toolset need that boost of self esteem sometimes. Relativity. What may be slop to a long time modeler could be quite an achievement for a new guy.

Positive, constructive criticism combined with good tips makes for a forum that promotes artistic growth. Rudeness OR being too nice to give someone honest and polite advice has the opposite effect (if they are welcoming the input).

So I agree that sometimes people over praise in art forums, but I also think people get overly critical. It's an honesty and maturity thing. Regardless, forums are a revolution to sharing and growing as an artist. They'll never be free of either extreme ( too :D or too :mad: ), but they are a priceless and free resource. ZBC is one of the most active and useful out there, too. :tu:

[bicc39]

You and bicc39 (http://member.php/?u=8495) will now be in the IGNORE list.

Wish to thank all the little people for this honor!!:tu:

What willl you do when there is no one left?

[Morph Division]

they will stroke the warm air their absent egos once occupied.

telling me true artists have no ego is like saying mickey mouse is king of Disney land. :lol:

[slocik]

what was this threadabout again ? ;f

[silvaticus]

"telling me true artists have no ego is like saying mickey mouse is king of Disney land"

Wtf, he isn`t?

Now you, bicc and 7 other randomly selected dudes are on my ignore list. I`ll ignore you until it hurts! I`ll remove you from myspace too!

[mec_os]

but i joined the forums just to say "Wow" :cry:

[Slosh]

I'll probably get a lot of flack for this, but here goes anyway:

When I started in ZBrush, it was a fairly new program. I was brand new at digital art, and as anyone who has been around ZBC for any length of time will tell you, the program was more difficult to use in the beginning. So, getting praise for even mediocre work was meaningful and felt very good. The "wow" and "great job" comments I got at that time fueled me to keep creating and provided motivation for me to get better and better.

This was a double-edged sword, unfortunately. I got used to hearing that praise, and people seeked out my advice and techniques. As the level of skill on ZBC increased, people like me (who are mediocre at best, I admit it) got less and less of that positive feedback. For me, I lost much of the joy of posting my work. Now, I rarely post anything, and in fact I rarely feel motivated to create anything period.

I know this is an immature way to react, but it is what it is. Now, when I post, I get about 95% criticism and only maybe 5% pep talk. Makes me shy away from posting at all. I am fully aware that the critiques I get are meant to make me examine my work and improve upon it, but I'm kind of a big baby and would like to hear more of the "oohs and ahhs" that I was used to getting.

I don't think it hurts the mediocre artist to hear really good things when he/she posts a Bowling Ball with Lips. It's like telling your 5 year old that the scribble he made really looks like a tiger hunting an octopus in space. It helps to nurture his creativity and encourages him to keep trying.

That being said, none of us is a 5 year old, and we should be able to take criticism without pouting and storming off to our rooms. I would suggest maybe tempering your comments about what can be improved with additional comments about what IS good about the work submitted.

"Yes, Johnny. I see that you have made a tiger hunting an octopus. Maybe take a look at some tiger pictures and notice how long the body is related to the length of his legs. That would make it a bit better, but you've captured the fierce look in his eyes very well."

If we could all create the amazing pictures that so many ZBC members submit, I think that would be great. But we can't, and I don't think it's right to discourage the Johnnies of our community by only telling them how crappy their scribble looks, or simply ignoring them altogether. The positive feedback is one of the things that has made so many people fall in love with this forum.

On a side note: Why does everyone suddenly have a Scrapbook Thread? That is so annoying. I would like to read a thread that focuses on a single project, rather than having to weed through 6 months worth of stuff that I already saw when it was first added to the Sketchbook, just to get to the new stuff.

Edit: I checked out some of Codeman's threads, and there were alot of these "wow" and "amazing" comments there. Would you have preferred that those comments were not made? Or, do you feel that your work was greater than mediocre? I'm not saying it was mediocre, I'm just wondering where you place yourself in this debate?

[dustinbrown]

Fact of the matter is, if people only commented when they had the time and inclination to give detailed, thought-provoking feedback, this would be a very quiet forum indeed.

Considering how much work flows through this site on any given day, more often than not "Great work!" is about as much energy as I can bring myself to invest in feedback. And that's assuming I like the piece!

Even if I see a piece that looks great, I'd usually rather eat a bullet then go on an artsy-fartsy diatribe about the merits of the piece, so guess what...they just earned themselves a "wow!"

Hell, if I'm being honest, if my work weren't mine, I probably wouldn't comment on it.

[Facenna]

Well said, Slosh. Nice to know some people around here know how to give good critique. ;)

I don't get tired of positive and encouraging posts, but I do get tired of people being too negative, and of all the sentences that start with almost a command ("do this...", "you should...") or "make this the way I think it needs to be...". I get even more bewildered when people actually change their work in reaction to comments phrased that way!

[10000hours]

i think the artist itself
who need to be the tough judge for his/her own art work...
others are just oppinion for you to considerate.
btw THIS THREAD IS F#REAKIN GOOD its really educational.but you guys should put color on your fonts coz white is sooo last year.

[Facenna]

btw but you guys should put color on your fonts coz white is sooo last year.

Errrm, OK...! lol
Trouble is, I can barely read that purple/blue without highlighting it first! :p

[Lakai]

a good way is to find some kind words and also give honest critique.
In nearly the most pictures their you can find bad and good side, it ''only'' takes you some time.

[mestophales]

I think the point of posting WIPs or finished peices is 2 fold - yes you want people to go - WOW, but I post for crtitics, I know I need improvement but what pisses me off is when someone offers a critique that is nothing more than a thinly vieled "You Suck", the criticism should always be specific and constructive in order to get better.

[Gordon Robb]

I agree completely. I want genuine comments and help, and if people think it looks great, I don't mind if they tell me.

I have to say, that compared to other sites (non-Zbrush), it is not that easy to get that kind of help here. I still maintain that we need a WIP part, or a noob part. There are some really talented artists here, and beginners stuff gets lost in the fantastic stuff.

[malc2304]

I think crits should certainly be encouraged it is the only way you are really going to improve your skills if people tell you what isn't working and long as it is done in a constructive way and not just such a part looks wrong.
If you don't like something it is not difficult to say why. At the same time they should be telling you what does work in the piece so you know what is being done right and don't go changing it or maybe work it into other parts of the model as well. Again why does it work. At least this way people won't get totally discouraged and give up through just getting negative comments all the time.

Getting crits is quite tough on the forum it seems you only get a decent amount if your work is really good or if you are relatively new to the tools if you fall in between you will find crits are few an far between.

I do think having the extra sections in the forum is a good idea or people start flagging their thread titles if they want the feedback My Scuplt - CRIT ME.
At least people will know who is posting to seek advice and who is posting just to show what they are working on.
There is that much posted alot of work gets overlooked and I am guilty of just checking the thumbnails at the top unless I have a decent amount of time free. I have missed out on some pretty good work only to come across it weeks later. having the separate sections with their own thumbnails up top would help this and let more peoples work be exposed to the community.

[Intervain]

I try to say what I think needs adjustment even if I love a piece. I know some people think I comment 'I don't like the head' because I think it's bad, which is not true... I just try to point out what would make it even better...
Very often there's something that's really excellent technically that I simply don't comment on because I hate the subject matter, find the idea not to be my kind of thing or the like.
If I like something I'll say it but usually without the WOW, Awesome. The WOW Awesome comment isn't really helpful IMO

I am sometimes blown away by somebody's work and then I simply cannot but scream WOW but it rarely happens. Happened with the Batman over in the top row for instance - I love the execution and even though it's a character that I've seen a million times over it still blew me away. Generally though I try to refrain from that sort of comment.

As an artist posting I admit it's nice if people love your work but it's also nice to get a good crit [even though sometimes you want to kick the person who wrote it in the behind for being right ;)]. It's rue that with the more known artists the public seems to expect more with each project which can me discouraging as Slosh said, beacause really one sometimes wants to just do something simple without a huge number of wrinkles or folds or whatever - just for the fun of it and not to impress others...

Slosh: about the sketchbooks - I find them quite enjoyable to follow, however I do agree they should be kept apart from other projects. there should be a part of the forum for sketchbooks, which I've been shouting about lately all the time but it doesn't seem to be happening unfortunately...

[stuart1983]

I'm slightly confused.
There are a few words for the people like us (English learner) to admire the works. :(
What do you think that I can do to praise the works which really surprise me without making other people unconfortable?
Should I try to write what's good as much as I can?
I'm asking this because I just want to admire when something moves my heart and I don't want to stop doing it.