Sketching in layers?

[Jaycephus]

Question for anyone who knows...

I would not doubt that there is more than one way to do this, but I'm having trouble doing it at all.

Is there a way to be able to sketch a drawing in ZBrush, and then change to a different layer and continue sketching, with the first layer visible. It would be nice to be able to switch between 'layers', but it's not necessary. I say 'layers', because I realize that maybe the solution involves turning the sketch on one layer into a texture on a 3DPlane or something like that.

What I am trying to accomplish is to sketch guidlines and a rough form, quickly. Then have that in the 'background' while I refine the sketch on a different 'layer'. Then the guide lines or rough initial sketching can be deleted or 'turned off', so that only the refined sketch remains.

It would be great to be able to do this with ZBrush's layers, so that different elements could be on different layers, and yet all visible at the same time, but I realize that ZBrush wasn't designed to be a 2D sketch gizmo.

Examples:

http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/uploaded_from_zbc/200305/user_image-1052068162gzn.jpg

I would like to be able to get rid of the guidlines or rough sketching with out always having to erase it by hand:

http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/uploaded_from_zbc/200305/user_image-1052068184xjp.jpg

And the final...

http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/uploaded_from_zbc/200305/user_image-1052087462nyl.jpg

[Skaven252]

The problem is, pixols don't have an Opacity value, so you cannot overlay a flat color over another so that the one behind the other would show.

Maybe you could create the lines with the Single Layer brush, by disabling the Picker and switching it to a constant Z value?

[Pixolator]

Hi :)
Yes, it is possible, I'll post a mini-tutorial later today/tonight :)

[gummie]

Thank you Pixolator! I was wondering about this also sometime ago, not relegated to drawing but I gave up. :)

[LWTB]

whoa very nice ending sketch
cant wait for the tut.

[Frenchy Pilou]

Hi Jay
It's the reason of Layers :)
You have perfectly resume the possibilities of Zbrush !
What have you don't try that you have describe ?
It was excactly the answer :)
Just draw on 3 layers !
Have you don't see the little :: on each layer icone : if you Enable it or not it's visible or not :D
I have describe this for Vikki, if I remember ;)
But in a short time you will have a "Pixo tut" on the subject :cool:
Pilou

[Jaycephus]

Frenchy, I tried using two layers last night, filling each one with a base color, and then trying to sketch on each, and I always had a problem that prevented me sketching on one of the layers.

Today, I tried it again, since you posted that it could be done. Now it's working just like I want it to, which is great! I don't know what I did differently.

I hope to see Pixolator's tutorial to see if there was a step that I was prone to leave out.

[aurick]

I'm looking forward to seeing Pixolator's tutorial, too!

But one idea that I have relates to the fact that materials remain live until baked. If you turn Flatten Layers off in the Render palette, you can then put your lines one one layer and do your drawing on the second. When drawing, use a material with the Transparency modifier, and set it to a value that allows you to see through to the guide layer as you work. When finished, delete the guide layer, turn Flatten Layers back on, and change the material transparency back to 0.

[Frenchy Pilou]

Hi Jay
A little trick is not filled a layer : just keep a black background and all is easy :)
Pilou

[juandel]

just an idea for staying inside one layer... and i realize it wont be possible in all cases, depending on backgroundmaterial and colour used: fill the layer with basic material or any other that has colorize diffuse in its modifiers. save basic material as basicmateriala and load it into another slot. set colorize diffuse to 100, which will make it kind of black without changing paint-colour. draw helplines. draw cubes or whatever with another material. when you want to get rid of the helplines (all of them) just set colorize diffuse back to 0 (so as to get same properties as basicmaterial used for fill layer) and they will vanish into the background :)

- juandel

[Jaycephus]

Juandel, that is a good idea :tu:

I had the same problem again with multiple layers, and I haven't figured it out yet. I started out being able to do what I wanted to do with two layers, and now I can't, and I can't reproduce the steps I took to get back to where I was. :(

[Frenchy Pilou]

Good trick Juandel :cool:
Pilou

[Pixolator]

A lot of information is already available in this thread and in here (http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=000478) and here (http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=010948)

Jaycephus: I thought you had it solved :) Can you post more info about the problem that you have encountered? I may be able to determine which step is missing.

-Pixolator

[Jaycephus]

OK,

I am using the Simple brush, ZAdd Off, RGB On, to sketch with. This requires that I fill a layer with pixols. As far as I know, from reading the ZBrush manual, I can't use two layers with this method, and have each layer's pixols visible at the same time. And if I don't fill a layer with pixols, then there are no pixols present in that layer upon which the simple brush can operate.

[havran]

Jay, I just tried an experiment that seems to work:

Fill Layer 1 with FlatColor material and background color of your choice (select them first, then ctrl-F)

Fill Layer 2 and any others with Basic Material (with some positive Transparency)

Render: Preview mode with Flatten Layers Off

Picker: Active Layer

SimpleBrush with everything off except RGB

[P.S. -- make sure all layer thumbnails have their visibility triangles turned on]

[Pixolator]

Hi :)
Here is a 640x480 two-layers sketch document (preset with black background )...
Click here to download the document (only 2k in size ) (http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/uploaded_from_zbc/200305/user_file-1052190482bxg.zip)

Open this document in ZBrush, select Simple Brush, set drawing mode to RGB only (not MRGB) and turn off the ZADD.
To start, set RGB intensity to high value (100), select white color and paint in one of the two layers. Layer 1 is the ‘dirty’ layer, and layer 2 is the ‘clean’ layer.

About the document...

1. Layer one is filled with black color and modified FastShader material (this material is not transparent). The layer has been ‘pushed’ one pixel deeper than the default (by using Layer ::Displace Z).
2. Layer 2 is filled with black color and a modified ‘BasicMaterial’. The material has transparency set to -100 and the transparency curve has been modified to allow low-intensity colors (black) to be transparent and high-intensity colors (white) to be opaque.
In order to activate the material transparency, the Render ::Flatten Layers has been turned off.

After experimenting with the above document, you may want to further modify it to fit you needs by adjusting the transparent curve for material 2. This curve will allow you to control the minimum and maximum transparency and the sensitivity to various color intensities.

In the image below, horizontal white lines were drawn in layer 1 and vertical white lines in layer 2...
http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/uploaded_from_zbc/200305/user_image-1052191207qbz.jpg

Snapshot 1: The default settings of the above document. Black is fully transparent while white is fully opaque.
Snapshot 2: Modified transparency curve. White strokes in layer 2 are partially transparent.
Snapshot 3 & 4: Modified transparency curve emphasizes stroke edge (outline).


Hope this helps :)

-Pixolator

[gummie]

Okay, I first thought that it might be limited to black and white but then I tried it and it works very well, with color! :)

Thank you Pixolator for another great tutorial. :)

You know this Zbrush is like a blind man's diamond? :D

[Jaycephus]

This works pretty well. :tu:

I'm doing black on white, though.

http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/uploaded_from_zbc/200305/user_image-1052210955efy.jpg

Now we could really use an elipse, circle, and arc Stroke!!! :)

http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/uploaded_from_zbc/200305/user_image-1052211072jve.jpg


Thanks, Pix.

[Pixolator]

I'll post a white-background version shortly :)

[Pixolator]

Here is the white-background version of the sketch document..
http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/uploaded_from_zbc/200305/user_image-1052214759eue.jpg


Click here to download the 'white' version (2k in size) (http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/uploaded_from_zbc/200305/user_file-1052215201eqr.zip)
OR
Click here to download both (black and white) versions (4k in size) (http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/uploaded_from_zbc/200305/user_file-1052215241yye.zip)

About the document...

The settings for this document is similar to the black-background version with the following exceptions...

1. Layer 1 and 2 are filled with white color (instead of black).
2. Layer 1 uses a Colorizer material (instead of fast shader). The colorizer shader of this material allows you to control the amount of fading that will be applied to layer 1.
3. Layer 2 transparency curve is reversed. i.e. Black =opaque and white=transparent.


Hope this helps :)
-Pixolator

[Mentat7]

This is a great resource Pix! I would have to concur with with what has been previously said...we could do with some enhancements in the fielld of 2d tools....arcs, selection tools, blah blah blah. Thank you!


Jay...that is one fab looking Amazon!

[Jaycephus]

Ahhh, thank you very much for coming up with that White version using the Colorizer material. I had simply swapped white for black and reversed the slope of the Transparence graph in the Basic material to get the white version I used to produce the Jet Engine. However, as you know, drawing on the first layer would not be a grayscale unless the color was changed to a grey.

Mentat, thanks! Yes, I would love to see an elipse stroke (which could also do circles and arcs). Preferably, it would be easy to align with guide lines or other elipses already in your drawing, as well as quick and easy to use. It would be great if I could lay down arcs and elipses at least as quickly and accurately as I can with an elipse guide on a piece of paper.

(You might as well ask for everything.) :)

Thanks again, Pixolator, for coming up with this solution! :tu:

[havran]

For arcs and ellipses currently, you could use custom stencils or the Ring3d tool with ZAdd off and Initialized with appropriate Small Radius etc. -- scale and rotate along any axis (even though it only leaves a 2d mark) -- this would have to be on a layer that was already filled with some material.

[Mentat7]

Thanks havran for bringing that up. Some of the drawing functions we are desiring are indeed available...if in a roundabout way. I think what Jay is getting at though is we would like to see enhancements in these capabilities that would make them more efficient and more accessible. Photoshop and Illustrator for example (bare with me...I know this is a worn out comparison :) ) have a number of tools that do this...just click the tool, drag it out on the canvas, instant results. I think that is the ease of use, power etc that we are after. How it is ultimately incarnated in ZBrush is anyone's guess...I am sure Pix has many ideas up his sleeve...many of which will most likely redefine our fundamental concept of these types of tools. :)

[Mahlikus The Black]

As simple as this looks and sounds...I am still lost. I guess I just have to go home and play with it. I have questions though.

What material do you use to draw on what layer then?..basic?...colorize?
Which layer is acting as your transparent/guideline layer? Layer 1 right?

Argh..like I said, Guess I have to go home and fool with it for a while. Let me tell you why, I am going to try my first big raster paint job (now that I finally have a graphire). I know PS well, and Painter not so well. Now I hate the way PS's smudge tool lags. So, after seeing some lovely painting/sketches done in ZB from other users *looks hard at jay*..lol I am dying to give it a good whirl. This will be my guideline image (nowhere near final BTW)

http://www2.zbrushcentral.com/uploaded_from_zbc/200305/user_image-1052243251ooy.jpg

Finally, can this be done with more then just two layers? More then one working layer?

Thanks

[Jaycephus]

MTB,

I do see one source of confusion with the white version Pix created: Layer 1 is filled with the Basic material instead of the Colorizer material he included in the second material slot. I would just fill layer 1 with the Colorizer material and use that. Then you use the Blend Amount slider in the Colorizer material to change how black the pixols in Layer 1 are.

<EDIT> Pix has cleared up the above issue: Using the material picker function with this document will pick the material in Layer 2, even if you are in Layer 1, unless you switch from All Mode to Active Mode in the PICKER palette. So actually, Layer 1 in this document is already filled with the Colorizer material. </EDIT>

Layer 1 is the guidline or quick-sketch layer, and you would want to use the Colorizer material on it in order to be able to vary the greyscale color of any drawing you do on that layer.

Of course, Layer 2 is your 'finished' work layer, although, it is certainly possible to simply use it as an intermediate layer, I think. (Do a material swap to change all of the pixols on the layer from the original material to the Colorizer material, and create a new higher-level layer.) And you would want to use the Basic material on this layer.

Of course you probably know the fastest way to switch to the correct material without making a mistake is to change to the layer you want to work on, click and hold on the main material icon (the selected material), and drag out onto the layer and release. Before you release, you should see the material selection change to the correct material. <EDIT> For this to work on this document, set the PICKER mode from All to Active. </EDIT>

Yes, you can use as many layers as ZBrush allows. If you just want a 3rd or 4th layer that allows you to view the guidelines or base sketch, without viewing anything on any of the other sketch layers, just Duplicate layer 2. And then if you want to take a refined sketch in layer 2 and make it the base for a final sketch or painting, you can:

1. Dup layer 2, and move the new 3rd layer forward 1 pixol in the Z-axis (-1, not +1).

2. Then save the materials (Colorizer and Basic) used in both layers 1 and 2, and load the layer 2 material back into an unused (un-needed) material slot.

3. Select layer 3, select the newly loaded Basic material, select white, and Fill the layer. This layer is now using the material from a different slot than layer 2.

4. Now select layer 2 and the material used in it (the first Basic material), and load the Colorizer from disk into that slot, changing all of the pixols in layer 2 to the Colorizer material.

5. Hide layer 1.

You will now have the same setup as you started with, but layer 2 is the new guideline layer, and layer 3 is the new drawing layer. I've tested this and it worked for me, if I did everything as I've outlined above.

Your sketch looks good, Mike! Was it done in ZB? If so, how did you get the perfectly circular moon?

[Mahlikus The Black]

Thanks for the info jay. I will try it out when I get home. Its that it just seems to be alot of work when I could just pop into PS...that smudge tool though..argh >=( I will still try it though.

As for my sketch, no it was actually a scan of a little drawing I made during lunch. I love post-it notes. I then enlarged and expanded on it in PS. As for the moon and fade..thats PS. If you want to know how make a circle then use the ring tool and set the inner radius to desired number for your preferred thinkness. I would guess that would work. Its if you havent tried it already...lol. of course turn off everything save RBG.

Thanks again...2 hours and counting till freedom

[Pixolator]

Mahlikus The Black: The material has already been applied to each of the layers. When you paint, make sure that you use RGB mode (not MRGB) which will not modify the assigned material.

Jaycephus: Layer 1 of the ‘white’ version is filled with colorizer1 material . If you used the material-picker function (clicking on a material and dragging to canvas) you select the material that is used by the front-most Pixol under your cursor, since layer 1 is further than layer 2 (layer 1 was pushed back 1 pixel), you get the material that layer 2 is using. In order to check which material is assigned to layer 1, turn off layer 2, switch to layer 1 and then ‘pick’ the material. Another method of picking data from the currently active layer (without turning off the other layers) is to switch from PICKER:All mode to PICKER:Active mode.


Quick tip about turning layers on and off: The fastest method to turn off (or on) all other layers is to SHIFT+CLICK on the icon of the currently active layer. This method is faster than selecting each layer and turning it off or on.

While mentioning a shift+click shortcut, I’ll mention one more tip (This tip is not related to the current topic but nonetheless, you may find ‘handy’)...
As you already know, clicking on the title of any palette will close/open the palette. Shift+Click on a title of any palette will close/open ALL palettes in the tray (the left or the right tray).

-Pixolator

*makes note to self... more 2D tools.* :)

[Jaycephus]

If that would work, it would be great, because you can then use multimarkers, and move with constraints to really help keep things aligned. Maybe we even could use the perspective effects in ZBrush, as long as your tool is in front of the drawing plane. I don't know yet. I'll test it tonight.

I tried using the ring tool in the past for creating perfect, aligned elipses and arcs in my sketches, but that was with the simulated charcoal/pencil method before I had guide layers, and the effect was not the same as an actual brush stroke in that method. With simple grayscale sketching, it might work. :)

[Mahlikus The Black]

If I may mention one more thing to you Pix. When the white cursor (circle that shows draw size) is on a white background, could it change color to see it?..lol..Another note..lol

Oop, oh wait..nevermind..Dohp!

Thanks for the info Pix!
:D

[Jaycephus]

Pix: Ahhh, thanks for that explanation of what I was seeing.

And thanks for the tips! :tu:

[Jaycephus]

Mentat:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Jay...that is one fab looking Amazon!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amazons? What are these 'amazons' that you speak of? That is a sketch of my wife.


Mu-hahahahahah!


OK, I'll admit her hair isn't that big and long, and her knife is more like a bowie, and not that nasty, serated thing.

;)

[Grub]

Very informative thread, Jay- I've been experimenting with the layers myself.

Btw, the amazon babe looks great. :tu: :)

[Reyd]

please forgive a really stupid question, what are those lines in the picture of the Z pixolator?

[Frenchy Pilou]

Hi Reyd
It was just construction lines that Jaycephus
would like simulate for a tradditional perspective sketching :)
and Pix has given him one elegant solution and files :)
Hope this help!
Pilou