Voxels, Volumetric Sculpting

[Josh Tiefer]

Hi, I've been a dedicated Zbrush user since the day version 2 was first released....It was like the modeling Gods finally had mercy on poly pushers when the ability to brush on millions of polys became possible...now...I appreciate that ability still,...but one thing that has always been troubling, was that within Zbrush you mostly were locked into the shell of geometry that constituted your base mesh; this just meant a lot of pre-planning or bouncing in an out of another package like Maya,..which just discouraged a lot of creating in one package...

I recently tried the latest version of this program 3d Coat (the new alpha)....and it introduces (I know it isn't the first, Sensible Technologies had something similar) voxel sculpting....check it out at this link here:

http://www.3d-coat.com/v3_voxel_sculpting.html

basically you can branch out, mush and merge seperate pieces, and cut holes in a way that you can't with traditional poly's, and currently cannot do in Zbrush...its pretty bizzare, but you can literaly just paint strips of geometry in mid air and join them together like clay;

Now I'm certainly not here to promote another package on a Zbrush website; because this package just lacks the sculpting sophistication, brushes, ect that Zbrush has, I don't feel compelled to use it instead, rather I wanted to bring it to the attention of the guys at Pixologic and ask that they might consider investigating this kind of technology for a future release of Zbrush...I believe digital sculpting HAS to go some direction like this,...we cannot continue to be locked to one model,..eventually there needs to be a way to propogate form and create with one package and without much complicated steps (at least in achieving initial form,..sure for export to another package retopo is neccessary)...

I know there are problems and complications with voxels, one being that it requires a uniform res for the mesh...perhaps there can be a voxel sculpting tool for blocking in basic/mid level form, and then an option to bake it to polys for more detail work,....I'm not really qualified to trouble shoot the technical difficulties, but there seems like a lot of opportunity if it were thoroughly looked into...

anyways, I'm curious to hear people's thoughts on this,

-J

[NukuDev]

I just posted a topic like this on the Zbrush4 wish list. If Zbrush had a brush that painted on additional geometry it would save people from subdividing their mesh just to get extra polys in one area. I am not a fan of local subdivision as it leaves nasty seams. I also agree that Zbrush is better than 3D Coat. In fact, I've tried using 3D coat and it runs extremely slow on my computer with simple models. Zbrush runs fast and I am able to create complicated models fairly quick. :tu:

[neurogenesis]

I'm sure they've never heard of voxels or 3dcoat :p

Sorry could not resist. In all seriousness the future is probably something along the lines of 3D acceleration dying and polygonal models dying and both being replaced by something more like Carmack's sparse voxel tree ray tracer.

The more detailed you get, the more triangles start to suck ie they have huge file sizes. Voxels on the other hand can be stored very efficiently. On older hardware it was just not as feasible to do ray tracing and renderers like that on older hardware were also something not many people could do.

Hence 3D acceleration, which made a higher level API that just did the low level part for you. Now we have graphics cards with 400+ cores and the move is towards making generalized instructions, because it's just too hard to make the crazy hardware and software drivers. And expensive.

Instead we will probably get raytracers (such as larrabee) and once we get that then triangles stop making sense any more so we will have voxels instead. Not just for rendering any more but also how we store our files. Also, the files will use materials like a software renderer of today (these are all ray tracers) so the burden of making artwork for 3D games especially will be dramatically reduced.

The 3D coat guy seems amazingly smart, but I am not sure one loan programmer can power through The Next Big Thing all by himself, especially as much larger companies like autodesk can sort of strongarm the whole market instead of just making a product and hoping the stars line up in such a way as to make it a big success. Considering how fast he seems to work, he might start nipping at the heels of mudbox and zbrush very soon, though.

[jaystein777]

I think voxels are a great way to achieve volume quickly and intuitively, but I must say the Polys will never die, when used properly they are very efficient.
I could see blocking out masses with voxels and then retopoing them which is what I think folks are doing.

[neurogenesis]

I think voxels are a great way to achieve volume quickly and intuitively, but I must say the Polys will never die, when used properly they are very efficient.
I could see blocking out masses with voxels and then retopoing them which is what I think folks are doing.

There just won't be any point to use triangles any more if you go to raytracers. The whole point is that efficiency is no longer so much of an issue. Efficieny of labor is much more important. Retopoing and creating lots of maps is a huge time waster. I spend about 90% of my time with art doing things that have very little to do with artistry.

If you eliminate triangles, that reverses. Also, the more triangles you get the more unwieldly the model. Not just for working with yourself but for processing on the machine. 20k poly model is a ton of work to make adjustments on.

[Nemoid]

I can agree, especially for organic modelling, but i wonder if polygons are still more practical for hardsurface, mechanics, architecture ? I don't see traditional modelling disappear anytime soon. however voxel sculpting is great! i'm all for it.

[asecbrush]

Oh yes, VOXEL sculpting is the way to go IMHO !

ZBrush would be unmatched with the following workflow:
1 create base mesh with ZSpheres
2 convert to VOXELS and sculpt general form with voxels
2 retopo (with better retopo tools than currently available)
3 sculpt finer detail on retopoed mesh (which ZBrush already does greatly)

When you see what's possible with voxels in 3DCoat, then surely Pixologic can not longer ignore this!?

Unfortunately : I've searched the 3DCoat forum and IMO 3DCoat still is too buggy.
So I hope that
1) Pixologic introduces something like that, OR
2) 3DCoat becomes a stable and mature app.
If 2) comes true before 1) then I won't even bother with ZBrush anymore which would be a pity ...

[splodge]

My main concerns with voxels is that while you can create a model rapidly, you're then left with no no choice but to retopo it. So the initial speed gain of voxels is ultimately lost. I feel I could create a game engine asset quicker in ZBrush because I'm not forced to retopo. And because of subdivision based modeling I'm given a free set of LODs too.

Voxels will definitely be great for the less geeky folk that don't want to fiddle with meshes and topology. 2D illustrators don't need to care too much about the underlying topology.

[slocik]

dude free lods from sub levels ? No retopo ? Do you seriosly make good game models or just throw out half assed stuff ? You waste so many tris using subdivisions as lods its crazy, also a retopo is a must for a good model for animation.
Anyway 3d coat is far more adwanced and better than zbrush as a softwere, but its just to early for it, its just to slow even on the simplst models, also the lack of polygons makes it asy to destroy your model and merge two separte objects you dont want to.

[splodge]

I make the best game models in the business! :mad:

You can check out my latest work here (http://www.uoregon.edu/~duckball/html/pong.gif)

I'm a pro dammit!! :mad:

[asecbrush]

Guys , ... , please ... , no fighting :lol: ...

Of course, it would be great if voxels were addded into ZBrush as an option, but an option that you choose so that those who don't need them aren't forced to use them, and those who do want them can use them.

It's not because some users do not need retopoing that everybody can live without, no ?

Anyway, I've been testing 3DCoat for the past couple of hours and stability seems to be great so far.
Voxel sculpting is great and retopoing is in my experience the best I've ever encountered compared to Modo and even ZBrush.

[Disco Stu]

leet pong!

[Kravit]

All voxels do is give you more creative freedom on the fly.
Its like 2d concepting but in 3d. It wont be replacement ,but should be addition to the zbrush tools.

Plus only one guy is making this program and already has half tools zbrush has. To be in competition with zbrush now that is really something exceptional on his part.

[asecbrush]

@Kravit : you're abolutely right !

@Zenneth : you're partly right : sculpting the general form is easier with voxels : I've created a complete figure (fingers and toes and all) starting from only 1 sphere !
And yes : for the detailing ZBrush is unmatched !
BTW : I've experienced no slowdown in 3DC, not during sculpting and not during retopoing.
I'm on XP 64 bit and I've encountered no problems so far.
But if you read the 3DC forums, yes there are other people complaining about speed issues.
All the more reason for Pixologic to add voxels to ZBrush !

Happy sculpting ...

[Disco Stu]

I dont really think voxels are needed just yet.
Let 3dcoat work on the voxels and let pixologic steal the concept pnce its advanced more.
GoZ and the ability to add and take are a perfect voxel workflow with much greater control.
I just cant wait to build cars on human heads ^^

[asecbrush]

Disco Stu, you might be on to something here ...

I'm on Windows, so I haven't had a change yet to test GoZ and hadn't thought of it anymore ...

I hope that with GoZ and Modo I have all the necessary tools I need, so I'm definately going to wait for GoZ before purchasing yet another application.

Thanks for the reminder :tu:.

[asecbrush]

My prayers have come true, ... , I almost can not believe it : ----->

ZSPHERES TWO :eek:

Sculpting with ZSpheres ! (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=73956&page=1&pp=15)

[ozzcar]

I have tried 3d-coat latest version, and let me tell you, zbrush 4 HAS TO HAVE VOXELS and a all re-engineered interface, or it will be doomed... ;)

Not only modeling voxels is amazing, the texturing tools in 3d-coat are all of you ever desired.

also if you are lazy to retop manually you have a option called "quadrangulate" that makes retopo for you, you can make adjusts manually too. This is great for making game assets (lowpoly).

automatically are created uv coordinates (that once again, you can tweak manually). and they are very similar to what you get when you create uv's using a unwraping tools, great!

moreover export to 3dsmax the lowpoly with normal map, diffuse, specular was cuestion of 2 seconds!!! (you can export normal maps to maya and light wave too!)

give it a try before you talk!!! :evil:
, at least give a read to the manual: http://www.3d-coat.com/files/manual_pdf/3dcoat-manual.pdf

finally the interface rocks!!!, very intuitive and with proffuse contextual help text.

Cheers




:tu:

[It's Alive!]

Volumetric Voxel based modeling is exactly where Zbrush needed to sojourn.

Topology should be the last thing the Artist tackles when they create something.

How many times have you created a basemesh, and started sculpting on it in Zbrush- only to find out that some of that topology wasn't planned out well enough to provide you with enough poly's to get the shape or texture work you needed done on certain areas of that mesh. Now you find yourself reworking the topology all over again, just to get that extra shape or detail into that area where the original topology failed.

I come from the real world of sculpting in clays and waxes.

I want to see that "Make any shape as smooth and as detailed as you desire" realized in Zbrush without all those "Basemesh topology not good enough" issues. In the real world, clay forms are created through drastic add and take actions. Pre-planning with a basemesh never made a lick of sense to me. Sculpting it dirty, shaping things out until you get the shape you are after, and then refining it. That's how it should be. Going in with a pre-shape is not the answer.

Let me sculpt whatever organic shape I want without the need to worry about the topology layout until I'm done sculpting it. If I want to snake hook pull me out a pair of 36 point antlers on my model, so be it. Seems like Voxels lets you do silly stuff like that with out punishing you for not having a topology flow to allow it to work.

I haven't tried this 3d Coat yet, but the videos on YouTube make my jaw drop. I can think or several times where this no worry about starfish poly's, bad poly flow, or under shaped basemesh issues could have been avoid using this Voxel based sculpting method- saving me hours and in some cases days of frustration. I agree if Pixologic doesn't figure out a way to incorporate this in Zbrush- they will be surpassed. I love Zbrush, the interface and the work flow is godlike.

This Voxel stuff, it's world changing. Sculpt first, topology later. I very much want it to become a part of Zbrush. (Fingers Crossed)

[slocik]

theres a free demo, try it out

[Disco Stu]

"it's world changing. Sculpt first, topology later."
Ur talking about zbrush :D

Seriously though sculpting in 3dcoat feels like waking up after a long
night drinking, running a marathon and then trying to paint a rembrandt.

[slocik]

yeah it feels really hard for me too, its like somthing totatly new, i got just so used to sculpting using flat projection with the way zbrysh tools work, that i cant do even the simplest forms in real 3d, i lose the feel of deppth, and and up adding to much or not enough mass ;f

[IKHandel]

Hi all
Interesting thread with LOADS of real valid points.

As I use both zbrush AND 3dcoat I feel like I am currently in retopo/ sculpting heaven, a sort of santa's development race, and who is going to get these fantastic new clever technolgies... and real soon.. me/ us the users. Its totally awesome all round!

Couple of bits from me.
Can't really mention voxols without mentioning 3dcoat. Apart from the emerging tech its the sheer speed of progress that is so jaw dropping with 3dcoat. I would definitely place my vote firmly for zbrush voxols for the future.

I have relatively old 32bit xp pc and have yet to experience any slowdowns using voxols.

Have to agree that 3dcoat is a little work in progress ish, but the sheer speed of improvement is to me at least an indication that this won't be the case for very long.

Personally I begin to suspect that a new workflow may evolve that involves either zsphere2/voxols and then retopo. Remains to be seen.

I can't help thinking that ZB was always aimed at making the ease of creation 1st priority THEN sorting out the resulting mesh. And it does this very well, confirmed by the diverse and sheer number of users.
Voxols to me are just a further extension of this philosophy but with the possible usable mesh weights raised still further. I will be very interested to see just what zspheres2 brings to the arena, I have a feeling in my bones that the landscape may change very significantly again! I also suspect that zspheres2 may well push retopo as a part of a standard workflow even more. But if they bring with it integrated generation of sensible polys then man it will be like 5 christmases all at once :D

I envisage my possible future workflow

Basic shaping speed roughing out to mid level ....Zsphere2 and/or voxols
Retopo in 3Dcoat
uv create tweak/refine in headus? (still researching this.. looks like nice app)
Displacement maps in zbrush?
Paint in either zbrush/3dcoat or c4d bodypaint (Goz)(man spoilt for choice)
Goz to C4d for rigging, cloth, dynamics and animation etc.

Be interested to see how well goz works for to and fro to C4d. IE for testing deformations once rigged, then tweaking mesh back in zbrush then back to rigging deformation testing in c4d. I guess then finalising uvs then painting

Man that this is even possible by a hobbiest in the comfort of my own home is just like some sort of dream come true.

PS Ozzcar sounds like I need to check out 3dcoat unwrap etc, not had time, I bought it solely for retopo tools but have been impressed by my initial sculpting with voxols, thanks for heads up on that one. Don't agree on the interface, Personally I find the icon pics not very informative and the UI a little clunky, but then I am not a great fan of ZB UI either lol. the manual and free vid tuts are great tho.

"Seriously though sculpting in 3dcoat feels like waking up after a long
night drinking, running a marathon and then trying to paint a rembrandt."
..........Stop drinking so much it's clouding your judgement! :p Rembrandt never had enough time to run marathons, he was too busy programming on his zx spectrum.

"Let me sculpt whatever organic shape I want without the need to worry about the topology layout until I'm done sculpting it."
Couldn't agree more!!

"We still will have to see how easy it is to get from the announced and new ZSpheres to a refined model"
The wait is agonising lol

[KlausNordby]

There is a brand-new version of 3D-Coat out today, the 3.1 -- which adds many new features and fixes various bugs. I've tried it for an hour now, and it's slicker and faster. There's also an all-new PDF manual, which is vastly better in both form and content than before. Get this stuff at www.3d-coat.com/download.html

Also, the very brilliant programmer tweets about his updates 5-6 times a day at www.twitter.com/AndrewShpagin. Whoever is interested in digital sculpting should check out the demo or 3D-Coat, it's One To Watch -- and certainly a hugely useful supplement to ZBrush, Silo, MOI, etc.

[wisdomknight]

I see a a very amazing workflow with 3DC and Zspheres2 together.
- Using Zspheres2 to create a base mesh is probably the fastest way possible.
- Exporting a medium poly OBJ from ZB 3.5
- Then in 3DC converting the OBJ into voxels.
- sculpt details and retopo there as well.

I also agree that waiting for ZB3.5 (because of GoZ and Zspheres2) is absolutely agonizing!

[aurick]

Depite the OP's initial intentions this thread has turned into more a discussion of 3D Coat than anything else. I am therefore merging it into the Commercial Apps Discussion (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=57850) thread, which as it happens already has a 3D Coat discussion going on.