About time I spoke out.

[tez]

I think its about time I spoke out, and this is not just about myself.

Zbrush centeral has become a unispirational place to post. I no longer feel its worth posting my work or efforts. This is not because my work isnt top row yet, but because anything less than fantastic gets blown out as not worth even a comment or a crit, but instead a rating that is unreasonable or un called for.

Iv notice this alot in the last year or two how this forum has become devided. I see some great work that gets hardly a responce yet is of high quality with a poor rating.

It would apear that ratings are now random and mean nothing. Iv personaly spoken to a few ZBC regestered users that feel the same way. I think if somethink is that bad , a comment has to be left with a poor rating.

Next time you see a new peice of work that somone is proud of, no matter how crap it may apear to you, post a comment to enthuse somone.

[SalmonGod]

I've noticed this as well...

and I may be guilty of it myself in some respects... I look at a lot of work without commenting... but that's because I rarely spend more than 20 minutes per day browsing here anymore... I'm just too busy right now... I check in to see what's going on, comment if something really interests me, and move on... and I really should put some more effort into being encouraging

I definitely agree about ratings... I think that system sees a lot of abuse... it really bothers me when I see projects that have barely been started but already have 1 or 2 star ratings... not fair at all

I have a personal policy on rating threads, which I only do in two situations
1. When the author declares a work "finished" and I feel it deserves 4 or 5 stars
2. When I feel something deserves 5 stars regardless of project status

If you feel something is worth less than 4 or 5 stars, don't rate the thread. It's only an insult and accomplishes nothing constructive. It's far better to jump in the thread and offer constructive criticism than to give a bad rating.

Now finally I have to say... ZBC is still the friendliest, most helpful and giving forum I've ever participated in during my 13 years on the internet. There is a downwards trend of unfairness towards people who display work that isn't spectacular, but I don't think there is any malice in the issue. I think it's a side effect of having so much spectacular work displayed here. It is really tough for most artists to post work (even good and decent work) and not look terrible when placed next to the work of ZBC's more elite and prominent figures.

[tez]

Thanks for your input SalmonGod, I totaly agree that Zbrush from the majority of users are friendly and I for one have learnt great deal from this place during my 4 years posting here. This is why I get angry when I see things taking a turn for the worse by unpleasent comments or no comments at all.

I actualy see works that are better than mine as inspirational, and know for some of us achiving this quality requires more effort than one mite think.

I just ask everyone that reads this to think twice before randomly giving a poor rating or rude remark when somone may have spent hours on what he sees as a results. The words here is "constructive" crit. You have some good points there and will be sure to try my best to follow some of these myself. :tu:

[WailingMonkey]

I don't think I've rated a post yet (but commented on plenty)...I think if there's
gonna be a ratings system, it should also show who rated and the rating
they gave, as it seems that some small-mindedness (or just plain childish?)
goes on where people rate one star on stuff that's clearly better.

Given that I've seen this trend of people voting 1-stars on good things I
generally check any post that may have an interesting title (if I didn't see
it's thumbnail in time up on row 2). Since whomever decides top-row stuff doesn't
always take star-ratings into account, I kinda fail to see the purpose of the
ratings system at all....but that's just my take onnit.

cheers. :)

[skullbeast]

I too have run into this trash. I say remove the ratings! Or only have it available in a comment. :mad: :eek: :ex:

[lemonnado]

With all respect..... Aren't you taking this forum and the mechanics behind it a tad to serious?
http://lh4.ggpht.com/c.marastigeorg/Rjjjgk7RofI/AAAAAAAAAAs/1wqYftKd3No/waahmbulance.jpg
Lemo :cool:

[tez]

With all respect..... Aren't you taking this forum and the mechanics behind it a tad to serious?
http://lh4.ggpht.com/c.marastigeorg/Rjjjgk7RofI/AAAAAAAAAAs/1wqYftKd3No/waahmbulance.jpg
Lemo :cool:Hi Lemo, im not sure who the comment was directed at but I think that depends on how long you have spent on a peice, how long one has had to put up with it, and knowing that your standards of work have progressed but nobody els sees it or lets you know.

If somone has come here to progress and prosper as a artest and they simply get ignored, or somone just hits your post with a single star, it can start to make you think "was is worth even posting it here?"

I think that there should be another sub form to this forum for beginner, intermediate and advance, this would help alot.

[jantim]

...i think that there should only be "5- star" ratings or none at all, no nitpicking like "mediocre"or "fairly good" ,"average".. etc.
And you should put a name behind your vote !
Since there are now some 50.000 members posting in different time-zone's a lot of posts get lost in limbo, unseen and unrated !..that's the down-side of the succes of ZBrush....and i must say that i get a bit tired of the : " Look at the head/alien/monster i made in ZBrush " sort of posts !

jantim

[kasperle]

Yes - this forum is one of the fairest and most enjoyable - that is true and is good so. It is also a forum that has a couple of problems but then what forum does not have problems?
In regards to the ratings aspect - personally I would be happy to see the rating system totally removed as it serves no real world purpose. If someone comes on this forum and sees something they like which they can incorporate into a project then that person will contact the artist. If an artist is suitable to the genre of a studio they will be contacted too. Happens all the time.
So lets get rid of the ratings system and just keep the top row for stuff that really uses ZBrush so well that it is a shining example and let the mods pick it.
The rest is always visible under the view more of the posts etc at the top anyway if someone wants to get an overview.
In regards to the general artistic directions in this forum we have a predominance of "game" and "comic" and "monster" type work and that is understandable but in this I feel the forum sells itself short because there is a whole world of art out there that is not in these defined genres and that to my way of thinking are definitiely more credible than yet another alien or such ! I have been a practicing exhibiting artist and lecturer for over thirty years (well before ZBrush was ever even thought of) and it is important to remember that there has always been a divide, although nebulous between commercial and fine art. The same is true now for the digital works which are heavily leaning to the commercial (ie film game etc) and the fine art is under represented.
If this aspect could be adressed by some newly implemented forum stategy then I feel the whole community (of all artistic types) would benefit greatly.
I say this as a instigation for communal thought and discussion.
ZBrush lends itself to far more than we are actually seeing here and I am not sure what the reason is that ZBrush is nor used by fine artists more widely and why we are not seeing them. Maybe they feel that the place is not really welcoming their less than "perfect" modelling at the expense of the content that they are trying for.
Artists like Chagal were not really great technicians but very poetically brilliant artists (as an example).
Personally I rarely am interested in the art aspect of the stuff I see here but mainly if there are any new technological aspects and their applications that may be of interest.
So - all have a good day now as I have client coming and he will want sopme "sach" work done on the spot - now that is being really artistic - hehe!
PPS I do not want to offend anyone here with what I said but the points I made are salient and worth open discussion without any accrimony.

[lemonnado]

I guess it's all about expectations. Sharing work on public sites and expecting any sort of valuable input from other members one does not even know is like playing the lottery. Heck..... every one except YOU could be Aurick!!! I know at least three members who post under different accounts. Not to cause harm, but not to get 'harassed' by the fan boys. And regarding advice and ratings... Ratings are a matter of taste, and I have seen so much bad advice here is is curling my toe nails. I just look at this forum as a fun vendor sponsored place to share results (however questionable), but not as a part of my professional or private life whatsoever. Coffee done... back to work...
Lemo

PS:I had a fun image with a funny WAAAAAmbulance under my original post. But that was censored away without comment. So... see... even the messages you read are probably not the messages which were written. All smoke, mirrors, and pixols. In the end of the day... it's all virtual ;)

[Intervain]

There's no way a star system will ever reflect the reality - I mean I've seen 1 star given to amazing work, which is obviously either a sign of envy or just pure mean sh!

I agree it's hard to get your work to be seen amongst others sometimes, especially if you're starting out. I remember that when I started posting many people didn't bother to look or comment... Also, from experience I know people often look at threads that have already received high score and omit the rest.

I try to browse all the treads nowadays and if I see something I like I'll comment, no matter who did it and whether it has got stars or not.

In all honesty I cannot see a better system than what we have now - here or indeed in all the other 3d forums. There'll always be people who'll give great work 1 star, just because they can. Honestly, this doesn't reflect anything... except maybe what the 3d industry is all about anyway, getting criticized on the job 24/7... just get used to it and persevere!

[WingedOne]

I used to think for once in my life I finally found something I was good at and that I was improving over time. When the ratings system was put into place, I now know that isn't true. It made me look back at my work and I now realize I was looking at it all through rose-colored glasses and now I know how terrible it all was and that I'll never be capable of getting any better now matter how hard I try.

So, that's why I've pretty much given up.

Maybe, someday, I can find something else that I'm good at, but I doubt it.

[Intervain]

have you tried joining in competitions - speed sculpting challenges, online workshops? those are a great source of knowledge and let you learn way faster than just posting stuff in a separate thread - so do sketchbooks...

In activities such as that people comment on each other's works more often and give each other tips. Take the 3d total's sculpting challenge for instance.

most of all - take the criticism well and use it rather than getting angry or discouraged. Those who do usually don't progress..

so no giving up, just keep going! ;) :p

[kasperle]

Hi there man,
I just read your post and it really upset me because what you are experiencing is not good for you.
I have been a teacher for many years and believe me when I tell you I had students that were better off digging ditches - but no. The truth is that the process of working in the arts is a very tough one but the very first thing you need to understand is that the "ART" is not a competition at all. It is a journey of self discovery and one can on any day break thru into unknown territory and right there is the best thing about it.
You know I have had over thirty exhibitons and I have had at least 7 of them that were a disaster by my own standards and by others too.
But what the hell. The years of doing this stuff have seriously enriched me and my friends and one never needs to dispair and give up just maybe change ones approach.
So heads up and take a deep breath and recognise how you are no different from the so called greatest artists that have ever been. Beethoven tore his hair out daily, Carravagio was a self abusing self torturing twisted guy and the list goes on. Art is that way.
Remember to make a clear destinction between using a "digital computer program" well and making "art" - that is often forgotten in this forum.
So good hunting for the elusive self - its really challenging and its also fun and also painful. That is life and life is GOOD!!!

[Pride]

Dogmatic............. :rolleyes:

Maybe we should have a 'Fun-Forum' with no ratings that is not in competition with the people with certificates. :)

[kasperle]

Just a short question?

You stated one word and then an icon.

I am sorry but I do not understand what you are saying if anything.
Please be more erudite and tell us all what you really think.
Thanx

[tez]

Ratings are fine if they are used responsibly.

Having the bottom two are not fun or helpfull, they are just insulting. Average, good and exelent is enougth. If somones work is bad then writing why is better than a signal via a star with no constructive help with it.

Having Terrible and bad as ratings is a easy way for anyone without a care to randomly knock somones work.

Basicly for these two lower ratings the posters name should be added so if he/she is going around adding these for fun, then a consistant name will come up on these post, then we all know to take no note.

I did a Alien recently, ok its kinda boring as they have been done a million times, but its the first one iv ever done, this makes it uninteresting not terrible pmsl :rolleyes:.

WingedOne, keep going man. Art has to be fun while a personal challenge, im trying to better myself based on my own level with the aid or better work to give me insite to my goals.

kasperle. that was a nice post with some good advice to boot. :tu:

[Lumin8]

Just my 2 cents. I come here probably 3 to 4 times a week at most. I've posted some crap which in the past I'd be rather embarrassed about. But, I'm really not. I think it just tells me I need to work more diligently and study others' work more. It was said that "it's just like life". I mean, they told Speilberg he sucked back at film school. That may very well have been true at the time. But, look what happened. It either affected him in such a way that he wanted to improve, and did immensely... or he really did have that "something" that others in his immediate circle didn't really have the eyes to see. He just kept building on it. In any case, I'd look at it as an opportunity and focus more on cultivating my work.

As with anything, it would seem, the insults will come from wherever they come. I've experienced this in a few different artistic, as well as musical endeavours. Some critiques you can respect and indeed learn from, others you simply ignore. It's my landscape. I'm just going to enjoy the adventure. If others get joy from it, hey... that's cool too.

As far as the rating system... I personally could care less. Don't get me wrong though, it would be nice to see something of mine go toprow but, that's certainly not my goal and I know I've got a long way to go. Besides, no matter how good you are... there's always a bigger fish that'll come along and eat you. ;)

EDIT:
I actually meant George Lucas, not Spielberg. Dunno why I always attach the two. Must be the Indiand Jones thing they did. ;) Basically what I was trying to say was, follow your own vision. Forget about ratings and negative things said about what you enjoy doing. Remember, some of those things you think are negative are actually positive. Even if you don't agree, they end up affecting what you do and how your work progresses. Adversity is good fuel. You either use it or it just blows up. ;)

[rouncer]

I think everyone here has the wrong idea, i give people 1 star and 2 star ratings, if its "noticableish" Ill give it 1 star, if its better than a 1 star I give it a 2 star, its a compliment.

Getting 1 star on this site means more than anywhere else, at least you got a star!

You gotta remember, with the amature guys theres actually guys who work at real creative studios posting their stuff here, who actually do even more amazing stuff than what the general population here does (which is basicly sketching only - but most the sketches are good in my opinion, just some not quite worth a star - but still good...)

[tez]

I think everyone here has the wrong idea, i give people 1 star and 2 star ratings, if its "noticableish" Ill give it 1 star, if its better than a 1 star I give it a 2 star, its a compliment.

Getting 1 star on this site means more than anywhere else, at least you got a star!
Have you looked what one star actualy means, granted if the stars had no namings behind them then yes Id see your point, but one star is saying its terrible, that is not a compliment, its a insult.

Also another way to look at it is, the efforts to ones abilities differ alot. Somthink may look terrible but that was the best they could do at their current stage.

If you have somone that has literaly spent 25 min on somthink and takes little care in their art then a 1 star may be suitable, even then, saying its terrible realy isnt gong to help anyone. Terrible in what way? every way, form texture, detail? Compared to what? their previouse work, some prefessional work on the top row?

In the worse case is when somone has actualy spent days on somthing and some one that has never produced anything them self, dont look at it for more than 15 seconds, or even read the thread, they just hit it with a single star without a comment.

Id rather receive 20 constructuve crits than a star with nothing said.

[fcm420]

I'm a total amateur hobbiest artist... While my main focus is 3dsmax/Zbrush and some game engine development..

I can come onto this forum every day and see something inspiring..

the talent and experience of users on this forum vary greatly.. coming from someone like me who is at the bottom of the experience pool... I see the comments ( or lack of them ) in posts as quite fair, and in most cases accurate and helpful.

I see work that gets top row.. and its all very deserving of top row...

I see work that gets a star or two.. and when compared to the top row stuff... seems like those who are voting know what they like and at least are somewhat fairly judging what they see.

I dont see any amazing works being posted that end up with 0 comments and a 1 star rating..

If I posted a zsphere head that had really poor topology, and make it appear like i was going for realism but it looks more like a cartoon pop-eye head.. I wouldnt expect much more then a star even if it was a year in the making.

Ratings on posted images isnt a rating on your talent.. or the amount of effort you put in, but a rating on the image being viewed.

I love this forum, I have posted many things that got little to no attention..
that doesnt deter me in the least.

If I compare my first Zbrush work to what I'm doing now.. its Greatly improved and that is certainly in large part from the community here.


I enjoy rating images, and seeing those who deserve it get placed on the top row.

If I started seeing excellent work being neglected then I might start to wonder...

but with so much talent.. even the good works have stiff competition for the ratings.

[tez]

I'm a total amateur hobbiest artist... While my main focus is 3dsmax/Zbrush and some game engine development..

I can come onto this forum every day and see something inspiring..

the talent and experience of users on this forum vary greatly.. coming from someone like me who is at the bottom of the experience pool... I see the comments ( or lack of them ) in posts as quite fair, and in most cases accurate and helpful.

I see work that gets top row.. and its all very deserving of top row...

I see work that gets a star or two.. and when compared to the top row stuff... seems like those who are voting know what they like and at least are somewhat fairly judging what they see.

I dont see any amazing works being posted that end up with 0 comments and a 1 star rating..

If I posted a zsphere head that had really poor topology, and make it appear like i was going for realism but it looks more like a cartoon pop-eye head.. I wouldnt expect much more then a star even if it was a year in the making.

Ratings on posted images isnt a rating on your talent.. or the amount of effort you put in, but a rating on the image being viewed.

I love this forum, I have posted many things that got little to no attention..
that doesnt deter me in the least.

If I compare my first Zbrush work to what I'm doing now.. its Greatly improved and that is certainly in large part from the community here.


I enjoy rating images, and seeing those who deserve it get placed on the top row.

If I started seeing excellent work being neglected then I might start to wonder...

but with so much talent.. even the good works have stiff competition for the ratings.

Im glad you feel this way and hope you still feel this way after a few years of posting.

I remember my first Zsphear model a few years back, man it looks awfull now, but at the time I felt I had achived somthink, that was 4 years ago. I didnt get a single reply but I didnt care too much, it was early days.

This didnt stop me I knew it was just the begining and wasnt blind to see that others works where light years ahead.

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=21762 :D

95% of my work I dont even post at all, so this thread is not about me. Im just looking through the gallery as see some realy nasty comments, and to some shock non at all on posts that would have got Top row a few years back. Id love to go though them all and post a comment and rate it but I hardly get time these days, but out of the thousands of regestered users here im sure a few comments could have been left.

My thought is that maybe we have become num, due to seeing the same thing over and over again.

[fcm420]

True enough,

You can only look at so many sculpted heads before they all blur together ..

I've been a member on here for a couple years, and while alot of the stuff posted is similar to one another,

once you've seen a few hundred posts, you can start to pick out what work is lacking due to the learning curve, vs. what is lacking due to lazy modeling/sculpting..

LEarning curve mistakes and overlooked areas , are not something I would post negatively on..

But with so much excellent information available here, theres no reason to create work from a polysphere sub'd to level 5 before you start your sculpt work... then call it done after an hour or two... those wont get much marks in my book.

After Learning the ins and outs of Zbrush I actually went back to 3dsmax and ended up re-teaching myself on some of my approaches to modeling organic forms..

Zbrush and its way of creating form, has allowed me to use some of that technique in my base mesh modeling that I've found invaluable to making the end results of my work better.. and acheiving results quicker..


for every dozen posts of generic sculpts you'll surely see something thats worth a 2 minute comment.

[lemonnado]

Let's make it a focus to treat each other with respect and the stars the posted work deserves. Even if it's only one, it should be motivating.

A virtual hug to all!

http://www.youtube.com/v/dKQXTipgFGo&hl=en

Lemo

[tez]

Let's make it a focus to treat each other with respect and the stars the posted work deserves. Even if it's only one, it should be motivating.

A virtual hug to all!

http://www.youtube.com/v/dKQXTipgFGo&hl=en

Lemo
;) just dont give me one star, or il give somone a virtual hug that may just crush them, :D

Yes motivating realy is the key point here. :tu:

[lemonnado]

OK.... 2 starzzzzzz then! HA!
Lemo :lol:

[skullbeast]

How about a pile of brown stars? ha, he he lol. I have learned to ignore (or endure). :D

[lemonnado]

We should create a 'Star' competition.... That would be fun!
Lemo

[bicc39]

Let's make it a focus to treat each other with respect and the stars the posted work deserves. Even if it's only one, it should be motivating.

A virtual hug to all!


This love and hug crap gotta stop!
Back to the good old days, don't like the work, beat the
crap out of the artist, stone him, leave him for dead in the
alley and if that doesn't work....nuke em.

Hug my ass!!!!

[tez]

Let's make it a focus to treat each other with respect and the stars the posted work deserves. Even if it's only one, it should be motivating.

A virtual hug to all!


This love and hug crap gotta stop!
Back to the good old days, don't like the work, beat the
crap out of the artist, stone him, leave him for dead in the
alley and if that doesn't work....nuke em.

Hug my ass!!!!
PMSL, why would I wana hug your ass? :D

[lemonnado]

Hug my ass!!!!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAhahahahahahahahahaha

That made my day! Thanks!
HA!
Lemo

[bicc39]

slow day here....:D :D :D

[lemonnado]

slow day here....:D :D :D
C'mon.... at least you could stone and nuke me for my 'helix' post in the gallery. I know that would cheer you up!
Lemo (taking cover)

[bicc39]

I get any more cheered up and I will be wearing
a jacket whose arms don't move.;)

Helix perfect example of resurgence of 60's.:tu: :tu:

ATICA! ATICA!!!!
FREE ALL POLITICAL PRISONER!!!!

( this has been a paid political advertisement)

[lemonnado]

Ahhhhh.... the love myself jacket.... free hug's all the time!
Lemo

[aminuts]

wow the kid steps out for a sec and finds the forum full of ass huggers and self huggers.......

where do i get in line?



bicc...i'd hug your arse with lemo's arms anytime....only cost ya 5 bucks :D

[Pride]

This is starting to feel like the old forum again........ :lol:

[bicc39]

I didn't even notice it was a full moon.:D

( nostalgia here in abundance, no cut-throat artists have posted yet)

How ya doin nuts?

[Blaine91555]

Damn, I don't stop by for a few weeks and everybody's playing with each others asses!

Bic, you always seem to be at the bottom of this stuff. Be honest, your the one putting one star on all the top row stuff, right? Be nice or the guys in the Lab Coats will take your crayons away.:lol:

On topic-
I've always thought there should be a separate forum for finished work and the rating system should only be used there. I've always thought it was odd that people rate WIP's anyway? But then I never post anything here to speak of, so I should probably shut up.

Oh and Lemo, you da helix king man :tu:

[Lumin8]

Full moon? Aha! No wonder.

:: runs off to sculpt an amateurish 10 minute blobby alien monster head with ridiculously stretched polys for fangs ::

[lemonnado]

Still waiting Lumin8 ... tap tap tap :D

[splodge]

My issue with ZBrushCentral and many of its artists is that they spend months making 3D art and then they present it as a 2D image. WTF?

So why don't artists just grab some photos off the internet and rearrange them in Photoshop and present their ideas that way?. Or is it all about "Look how clever I am. I can rearrange polygons to make a man. Oooh look at me everybody!"? zzzzzzz

If we're going to make something in 3D then shouldn't we display it in 3D?. That's the whole point of 3D, isn't it?. To move on from boring 2D photos and paintings.

I'd love to see Pixologic come up with a ZTL viewer. Maybe have it work within the forums too. Like the [IMG] tags, but have a [3D] tag.

Just an idea! :)

[silvaticus]

One thing that bothers me about ZBCentral is that I can`t tell the author of the previous post what to do with his idea.

[skullbeast]

May the power of Christ compel you!.....May the power of Christ compel you!.....





Dimmi...... Why Dimmi! WWhy! :p exorcist.jpg

[splodge]

One thing that bothers me about ZBCentral is that I can`t tell the author of the previous post what to do with his idea.
haha

you're allowed to use the words "shove" and "ass" around here.

[silvaticus]

:)

[lemonnado]

PMSL......

But on a more serious note.... Look at that Unity Game engine. That has a really cool web viewer. Costs... but is goooood.

Lemo