Building Rapid Prototype 3D Models from Zbrush Files Tutorial

[shhark]

Hi All,
After a couple posts to Hiroshi’s 3D Print for Toys (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=47708&highlight=Print+toys) thread, I have received a huge amount of interest & requests regarding 3D printing. When I say printing I mean building a 3 dimensional part via a Rapid Prototyping (RP) process. Rather than hijack that thread I thought it would be helpful to post a tutorial covering the basics of creating & prepping your file for output to a buildable database, RP choices with their respective pros & cons for building your models, as well as some approximate costs for making parts. We happen to provide all these services through my company Paradigm Development Group (http://www.pardev.com/) but all this should apply no matter who you use. This process can get very tedious as we start to deal more & more with ever increasing huge file sizes. As always, anybody who has insight to streamlining the process please share. My apologies for some of the pix. I will try to add additional images taken under better lighting soon.

Hopefully I haven't missed any glaring details.
CHEERS!
Josh Harker (http://www.joshharker.com/)

objet-parts.jpg

Creating your digital model:
Create your model with 3D output as an intention. For CG & illustration it may not matter if the model has holes, unwelded verts, open shells, forms that don’t touch, etc. All of this matters greatly when you intend to output to 3D part.

- Avoid extreme “wrinkles” in your mesh that overlap into a mess of polygons. Your surface does not need to be smooth but take care not to compromise the skin into a crumpled mess. This does not translate well into 3D and can render the file useless for printing.

-All parts need to be “closed”. There can be no open holes or gaps in meshes. The .ZTL “Demo Head” for instance is not buildable as is. The bottom is completely open and the printers cannot read a zero thickness open skin. I had to close the bottom in another program and create an .STL from that.

-When working with subtools you must combine all subtools before exporting. In a nutshell: “Make Polymesh 3D” of each subtool, then insert those PM3D’s (see “insert mesh” under “Geometry”) into a single tool & save the .ZTL or export as an .OBJ using the Quads setting. Subtools or components that can be separated from the model and attached physically after the build (swords, bases, guns, extended arms, hair, etc.) can all lower the models poly count by spreading it out over a few parts. This can also decrease the dimensional extents of the model which directly effects the printing costs.

- Subtools need to overlap. If they are “line to line” or floating, they will lift off the model when its printed. This has not been a problem as far as overlapping meshes and multiple shells regarding file corruption since the intersections are clean and make sense as opposed to a wrinkled or crumpled mess of polygons. This is very apparent in the DemoSoldier file (see picture). If you take a close look at the .ZTL file you can see where the shoulder pads, goggles, backpack straps, etc are not well attached or are floating. The picture shows how those features ended up lifting off or breaking in the printed part. demosoldier-2.jpg

-An exception to overlapping subtools is when you want the parts to be “attached” but not cohesive (i.e. chain links or other interlocked assemblies).



-The lower the poly count the better. 2 million polys has proved to be nearly the maximum workable amount. Again, less is better. Model sizes should be 250MB MAX. There are a few ways to keep the file size (poly counts) under control:
-Decimate the poylgons/triangles data using Softimage XSI, (http://www.softimage.com/products/xsi/) Geomagic Studio (http://www.geomagic.com/en/products/studio/) or similar. We use Magics (http://www.materialise.com/materialise/view/en/92074-Magics.html) & MeshLab (http://meshlab.sourceforge.net/). MeshLab imports & exports .OBJ & .STL, effectively decimates the data, & is free! Unfortunately it likes to crash with larger files which kind of defeats the purpose but you can't really complain when it's free.-Try to foresee areas that may not need the mesh density of highly detailed areas & avoid dividing them. Technically speaking, the poly count or mesh density makes no difference to the machine as far as ability to build but the file sizes & processing times like to crash even the most robust workstations.

-There is a point where, even when printing on a high resolution Objet Polyjet printer, the extreme detail of a highly subdivided model will never be reproduceable unless you were to create a monumentally large part from the file. You can always lower the resolution slider of highly subdivided models to a level appropriate for printing. A SDiv level of 4 or 5 seems to be plenty for even finely detailed models. Much lower SDiv levels (2 or 3) can be fine for simpler shapes.
-What seems like a perfect fix is to create a new topology of the model without losing any details. I believe that is what Plakkie covers in his thread Topology & Flow Lab (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=44876&highlight=topology) but I have had difficulty making use of this in any kind of reasonable time frame. Hopefully I’m simply missing the crux of how to effectively apply it. Anyone who is adept at this please post your secrets! It could help make the final prepped file infinitely better.


-From there, import your OBJ into whatever software you may have and convert to an .STL. We use a variety of programs to convert, repair, cut, etc. including Magics RP, Solidview, Solidworks, & Rhino. It would be a wet dream if Zbrush offered STL as an export option! Once you have the STL you can have the model 3D Polyjet Printed, SLA’d, CNC’d or a variety of other RP processes.




RP Processes (as they apply to High-Res Zbrush models):

These images attempt show the resolution & detail from an Objet versus an SLA part. Unfortunately I do not have an SLA build of the same part for reference but it should demonstrate the difference in build layers. You can see the Objet DemoHead print has build lines much finer than even a fingerprint while the SLA model has much more severe "stair stepping".
demohead-1.jpg demohead-2.jpg sla-build-lines.jpg

Objet Polyjet 3D Printer
Resolution/Accuracy: 600x600 dpi (.0015”) X&Y, 1600dpi (.0006”) Z layers (.0012” on High Speed setting) per inch
Max Single Build Size: 19.3"x 15.4"x 7.9" (larger models can be built in pieces & reassembled
Pros: Highest resolution & accuracy available. Variety of materials & color options.
Cons: Consumable support material adds considerably to cost. On smaller models it is not an issue but become prohibitive as the parts get larger. Solutions are: to cut the model into pieces to help facilitate laying them flatter against the tray for building which requires less support material, Shelling the models so they are hollow (.030”-.100” wall thickness appropriate to model size) then splitting them into halves so the can be built open saving material consumption. These operations generally need to be executed in another program as ZB does not have the tool set.

SLA (stereolithography)
Resolution/Accuracy: +/- .006” in X&Y, .004” Z layers per inch
Max Single Build Size: 25"x 29"x 25" (larger models can be built in pieces & reassembled)
Pros: Economical larger models.
Cons: Much lower resolution than Objet Polyjet, “stair stepped” build lines, rigid supports that mar & chip the surface when removed. Limited material choices.

CNC Machining
Resolution/Accuracy: +/- .002” or better over entire part in X,Y&Z
Max Build Size: unlimited (models can be built in pieces & reassembled.
Pros: Can be cut from variety materials including:
-plastics (i.e. clear acrylic & polycarbonate can be polished to a glass clarity)
-metals (i.e. aluminum polishes nicely to mirror finish)
-wax
-modeling/foam boards (i.e. can be economical for very large to monument size models)
Cons: While extremely accurate, tooling marks & minimum cutter diameters can limit details & resolution. This becomes less of an issue on larger models where the details & resolution are relative to the size. Cannot reproduce complicated or multi-axis undercuts.

SLS (Stereo Laser Sintering)
Resolution/Accuracy: +/- .008” to .015 per inch in X,Y&Z
Max Single Build Size: 11"x 13"x 17" (larger models can be built in pieces & reassembled.
Pros: Extremely Strong. Variety of material choices.
Cons: Powdery/porous/textured surface. Poor accuracy & resolution.

Perfactory
Resolution/Accuracy: varies depending on material & settings from extremely high to poor
Max Single Build Size: 7.5"x 5.6"x 9" (larger models can be built in pieces & reassembled)
Pros: Very High resolution. Variety of material choices
Cons: While detail is good, accuracy is not. Small build envelope. Limited or no available service bureaus.

FDM, ZCorp, Dimension Printer & Others
Resolution/Accuracy: varies but generally poor to awful
Max Build Size: Varies (large models can be built in pieces & reassembled)
Pros: Economical
Cons: Poor tolerances & accuracy, poor resolution & details, extensive post finishing required. Dimension Printer parts finish & paint poorly due to wax ingredient in material.

*Objet, SLA, SLS, & CNC models can all be sanded, painted, electroplated, etc.



RP Process Approximate Cost Comparisons:
- Prices in the industry can vary wildly depending on process, who’s trying to undercut whom, if the industry is busy or in a downturn, individual workloads at different service bureaus, quality of customer service, quality of product, delivery time requirements, etc.

- Each model will vary in price considerably depending upon dimensional extents, volume, quantity of parts ordered, complexity of cleanup, if it’s to be built solid or hollow, material choices, print quality settings, etc.

- Quantity can effect price significantly. The more parts you order at one time typically the lower the price per part.

- Hollow parts are cheaper than solid parts obviously because of material consumption. Beware when comparing Objet quotes with SLA quotes that they are both quoted for either solid or hollow. You need to compare apples to apples so to speak. Hollow parts could be as much as 50% less on larger models

-These prices do not include CAD time for repairing, converting, combining subtools, shelling, cutting, etc.

The approx. cost for the "Demo Head" Zbrush tool file @ approx 1mil polygons is as follows:

1.3" tall (approx. 1” from tip of nose to back of head)
Objet Polyjet 3D printed model "High Quality" (.0006" layers): $100 (solid)
SLA Model (.004”-.006” layers): $130 (solid)
CNC Machining/Renshape Urethane Board (+/- .002” or better in X,Y,Z): $425 (solid)


3.9" tall (approx. 1” from tip of nose to back of head)
Objet Polyjet 3D printed model "High Quality" (.0006" layers): $500 (solid)
SLA Model (.004”-.006” layers): $470 (solid)
CNC Machining/Renshape Urethane Board (+/- .002” or better in X,Y,Z): $850 (solid)


10.4” tall (approx. 8” from tip of nose to back of head)
Objet Polyjet 3D printed model "High Speed" (.0012" layers): $2120 (hollow)
SLA Model (.004”-.006” layers): $880 (hollow)
SLS Model (.008”-.015” layers): $1625 (hollow)
CNC Machining/Renshape Urethane Board (+/- .002” or better in X,Y,Z): $2000 (solid)

The approx. cost for the "DemoSoldier" Zbrush tool file @ approx 850K polygons is as follows:
3.1" tall

Objet Polyjet 3D printed model "High Quality" (.0006" layers): $135 (solid)

SLA Model (.004”-.006” layers): $130 (solid)
CNC Machining/Renshape Urethane Board (+/- .002” or better in X,Y,Z): $450 (solid)


6.25" tall
Objet Polyjet 3D printed model "High Quality" (.0006" layers): $365 (solid)
SLA Model (.004”-.006” layers): $260 (solid)
CNC Machining/Renshape Urethane Board (+/- .002” or better in X,Y,Z): $900 (solid)


12.5" tall
Objet Polyjet 3D printed model "High Quality" (.0006" layers): $1375 (solid)
Objet Polyjet 3D printed model "High Speed" (.0012" layers): $1100 (solid)
SLA Model (.004”-.006” layers): $1100 (solid)
CNC Machining/Renshape Urethane Board (+/- .002” or better in X,Y,Z): $1800 (solid)


How to Get Parts Built:
For an accurate quote, best thing is to send an .STL file that material consumption & build time #'s can be generated from.

-STL’s are best since this is the format needed by most process software to build. Also, the less work we have to do (converting, repairing, cutting, etc) the cheaper the part will be for you.

-ZTL’s are good because you can lower the res slider to 1 and save the file & end up with a very small file size considering all the information contained. Quick & easy to email for quotes but we have to do the conversions here which may increase the cost to you.

-OBJ’s work too but they are large & cumbersome & still need conversion before they can be used.

-If possible (especially for Objet Polyjet builds) cut your model into parts to help reduce the Z height of the build as much as possible. The lower the Z height of Objet builds the less time required to complete which translates into lower cost. For instance, a figure with an arm extended straight out in front of it could be laid flat on it’s back, but the arm would require many additional passes to build. If the arm was cut at the shoulder, it could be built along side of the body to reduce build time and reassembled after the print.

-For files that are too large to email (10MB+) contact us to get an FTP account username & password to post your files on our server. If more convenient, we can access your FTP site and pick the files.

Email (10MB or less) to:
info@pardev.com
To request FTP access, submit an RFQ, or contact us with any questions:
Paradigm Development Group, Inc. (http://www.pardev.com/)
www.pardev.com (http://www.pardev.com/)


Additional ZBCentral 3D printing threads:
Hiroshi’s 3D Print for Toys (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=47708&highlight=Print+toys)
Scott Spencer’s Halloween Boy (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=52346&page=1&pp=15&highlight=halloween+boy)
Jim McPherson’s Dragon (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=54099&highlight=jim+mcpherson) & Halloween Kid (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=52803&highlight=jim+mcpherson)

[nickz]

Thank you for putting all this info together for everyone. I hope this thread will grow and we will see personal trials for RP. It is a very exciting time to be a digital 3D artist and things will only get better.

I can't wait for the day when you can just hit the print button in ZBrush and you will be able to send out your water tight model straight to a 3D printer.

[MalottPro]

Great info Josh! It's great to see all this info in one place! I posted a thread about my experience with 3D printing here: http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=57055 (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=57055)
though it is no where as informative as yours.

[lemonnado]

Nice compilation!

I just would like to add that CNC machining does perform undercutting rather well on a multi axis machine. The cutting tool's geometry and size is the limiting factor, but if you use Z-Tools which HAVE that geometry during the creation of the model, then the system can do a much better job.

Cheers
Rainer

[WailingMonkey]

Quite informative...thanks for sharing your info, shhark! :)

[Plakkie]

Thanks Josh! A comprehensive thread about 3D printing would certainly be a great help. Good start, interesting read. :tu:

[shhark]

Thanks All but I fear very few will find it now. This thread was moved for some reason to the Community forum which sees very little activity. 2-1/2 weeks of writing, compiling #'s & data, gathering comparative quote's from other vendors, prepping & converting .ZTL's for 3d printing, & actually printing 3D parts for this post to have it buried within an hour in the Community forum (All non-ZBrush topics ... computers, movies, books, hobbies, and life in general).

I figured that the 100,000+(!!!) views that the other three 3D printing threads I listed at the end of my post meant that the forum was interested in 3D printing & that it applied directly to what people would like to use ZBrush for. My mistake. Anybody else agree or am I missing something?

[WailingMonkey]

Actually, I think you'll have more chance of it being viewed here as there's
generally less posts to bury it. Also, it will get lost much faster in the 'Main'
forum with WIPs and it doesn't really belong in the 'Questions' forum (and
would quickly get buried there as well).

Just bump it from time to time if you feel it's getting lost (or add more info).

;)

[dread_companion]

this is a gold mine of information!!! thanks for setting it all up!!! I agree that this has got to be the hottest thing since normal mapping.... :)

[KrakenCMT]

Thanks for the info! Unfortunately, the cost for printing these days are still too high for most to afford.

I read about the Desktop Factory 3D printer, but couldn't find any decent models that have been printed using the machine. Have you seen or heard anything about that machine?

[ryankingslien]

Hey Josh, Great information! Thanks for putting this together. I have featured this at SPC here (http://www.pixologic.com/blogs/ryan/2008/03/05/building-rapid-prototype-3d-models-from-zbrush-files-tutorial/).

Best,

Ryan

edit: Oh and thanks for printing the DemoHead and Soldier! It's very cool to see them in the "real world".

[shhark]

It is unfortunate that the prices are still high for the average Joe. They will come down over time but that could be a while. Materials & machine costs are still crazy high which translates into high part costs. The Desktop Factory printer is a great start down the road to affordable parts but the quality of the print is terrible at best compared to an Objet model. I guess that it's all relative to what your needs are but for the highly detailed ZBrush models I think it would be a disappointment.

I was considering attempting to offer a group build every month or so where it would make it possible to offer discounted prices for ZB users. The build would be limited in material choice, delivery schedule, polycounts, and overall individual part sizes but would offer an opportunity for more digital sculptors to try out 3D printing. If there's interest I'll look into it further.

Josh Harker (http://www.joshharker.com)
Paradigm Development Group (http://www.pardev.com)

[ryankingslien]

Hey Josh, One thing Tom Meeks pointed out to me with the Desktop Factory is that you could use it to print your mold instead of your 3d model. This way you could do a clay or wax pour and work the surface of it for final casting.

That sounded like a pretty cool approach. :)

ryan

[Leshiy3d]

must-have article, thanks! :tu:

[shhark]

That's a brilliant approach particularly if you plan to do post work on the wax anyway (you can make Objet molds too). Your resolution or detail will be no better or even worse than the original print however. Again not a problem if you plan to do all the detailing by hand. Unfortunately all that post work would not be in your file and could not be reproduced except my remolding the model and casting (or getting a high res scan?). I think the beauty of the digital file is the ability to keep an archival database that can be scaled, modified, or otherwise manipulated endlessly without losing that original information. That being said, there are many situations where this may not be important & this strikes me as yet another great way to integrate ZBrush & 3D printing to develop real 3 Dimensional sculpture.

I'm glad to see a few have liked the post & thanks Ryan for adding me to your blog which has already become a great resource all it's own.

shhark

Josh Harker (http://www.joshharker.com)
Paradigm Development Group (http://www.pardev.com)

[shhark]

actually one other point-
while you may be able to print any undercuts or hanging features into the mold, you would not be able to cast them without breaking them off. This is another great benefit of 3D printing in that you can recreate complex geometries/features that molding would not allow. I think it should also be noted that while the cost of printing may seem high, you are able to skip any molding & casting steps & their associated costs & go directly to a "hard copy".

shhark

Josh Harker (http://www.joshharker.com)
Paradigm Development Group (http://www.pardev.com)

[skullbeast]

What a great thread!

[Santis]

Thanks, a lot of nice info here :)

[fork]

Shhark,

Fantastic post!

I read you description of zcorp machines and I was wondering if you have looked into the zcorp 510? It has pretty good resolution and is quite affordable relative to the usual cost of RP machines. I have seen a few models form the 510 and it does not seem like the need a huge amount of post finishing, there are no supports that need to be cut off and the material sands down pretty easily. The 510 also lets you print in color, for what I do this does not matter so much but I would imagine is comes in handy for other folks. Also the price per cubic inch is only $1-$2 per cubic inch, not bad.

(spelling edited)

[Pride]

BUMP......... :)

[fork]

For the record I am not pushing the 510, just applied for a grant and it seems to be the best option for the Smithsonian to get into the 3D printing game.

[shhark]

Hey Fork,
Zcorp has been around quite awhile and their machines have been popular as concept modelers. I have not been able to consider their machines for my work as the resolution & accuracy are not up to what my clients require. This is not to say that their machines aren't good though. It's hard to argue that when the high level of detail or accuracy is not important that the cost savings is not very attractive. When this is the case many machines come into the light as possibilities. I guess it comes down to "if the shoe fits wear it". Out of curiosity, what would the Smithsonian 3D printing application be?

[lemonnado]

I met ZCorp, Dimension, and another wax printing corp at Siggraph. ZCorps printer was the least desirable regarding the output quality. Top was the Wax printer, which took ages and could not print large items. But the quality was immense. Dimension with their ABS plastic were pretty cool, but then again, you have the ridges which depend on the resolution. I heard wondersome things about the printers which form the models out of a polymer bath. But I have never laid hand on such a model and thus can't speak for or against it. I am having rather good results with 3 and more axis cnc machines now. But adapt my workflow to the tool a lot. Considering cutter geometry and tool path is going a long way. But it's not the salvation for a general purpose method.
Rainer

[fork]

Shhark- I am a sculptor and make exhibits and scientific models. The main reason would be to 3D scan an artifact, print out a replica then safely make a mount from the 3D print. This is one example of many...

Can anyone recommend an RP machine for $50,000 that performs better than zcorp? We need large work envelope, inexpensive material cost and nice resolution. The wax printer are great for jewelry scale but not for bigger stuff.

I run a small 4 axis CNC machine at home but still learning. I am hoping the zbrush folks see this great potential for CNC and RP work.

[watteville]

excellent recopilation!! thanks for your work, Josh

[lemonnado]

Fork, you should also look at foam cutter. Those are fairly inexpensive and can yield great results if used for the core of models. The application of a thin skin with detail could be done manually and yield excellent results. That would cut a LOT of time of the process.

Here is an exotic use for foam cut parts. It's the lost foam (like lost wax) method. I make parts for my 6axis machine with this technique and it works great. I thank the neighborhood for all my Aluminium for this haha.

http://www.buildyouridea.com/foundry/lost_foam_howto/lost_foam_howto.html

Rainer

[shhark]

Hey Fork,
You might want to check into used Objet machines or even a new Objet Eden 250. Objet used to offer refurbished machines with warranties in the past & may still do so. The Dimension printer is an FDM machine (fused depostion model) & costs between $19k-$33k. This is what Hiroshi had his parts made on (see here (http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=47708&highlight=print)). Machine cost is affordable (relatively speaking) but the part resolution is terrible & requires significant post finishing.

I think the process lemonnado is referring to with the polymer bath is either SLA (stereolithography) or EnvisionTec as they are the only processes I know of that build like that. SLA has been around since the early years of RP but the machines are crazy expensive, have expensive lasers that need regular calibration and replacement, and require a controlled environment & many peripheral stations for cleaning and post curing of the parts. Definitley not "office friendly" but the part quality is still very acceptable depending on the application and the part cost can be much less than Objet when building large models.

The Invision is made by the same company as the SLA machines. I had the same parts made on it & the Objet machine to compare side by side. The dimensional accuracy was unacceptable for our applications and the material has a wax ingredient that makes for a terrible painting or primer surface. It's resolution is also much lower than the Objet but the machine cost is very attractive. They initially offered the Dimensions for around $75k until their potential customers realized how sub par the output was for that price point that they dropped the price over half!

Another very interesting technology is the Perfactory by EnvisionTec (http://www.envisiontec.de/02hperfa.htm). I had parts built to review and they were better than most but not as good as Objet. Accuracy was a little off but resolution (.001"-.004" layers) was generally very good and they have a very impressive set of material choices available. They are a German company & I cannot comment as to what their current support for U.S. would be. As of the last time I spoke with them there were zero service bureaus in the United States so getting parts made by a vendor in the States is not an option. Their smaller machines go for around $85K.

Best thing may be to contact as many machine manufacturers as possible and request samples of a file you provide so you can compare all of them side by side.

CHEERS!
shhark

Josh Harker (http://www.joshharker.com)
Paradigm Development Group (http://www.pardev.com)

[fork]

Lemannado, thanks for the advice and cool link.

Shhark, thanks for all of the great information your provided about RP, much appreciated. btw nice work on your website.

[spaceboy412]

man as much as i'd love to do this being addicted to zbrush and all its just too expensive for the size, a crack habit would be cheaper.
I"m curious though how much of the cost is really about the materials over trying to pay for the machine itself.

[shhark]

I'm not sure if a crack habit & ZBrush are all that different. Both keep you up all night & you end up with that blank stare after too much of it. :D Although I haven't pimped myself out for the new Wacom Cintiq yet your point is well taken.

I would definitely say a great deal of the cost in 3D printing is covering operating expenses. How much do the actual raw materials cost that go into making your computer? Maybe $10 if that. It's all in manufacturing & the technology to pull it off not to mention the cost of doing business. Then there's the cost of software. The CD's it comes on costs pennies but the development behind it has a price.

3D Printing technology currently is not geared for the home user or hobbyist. It has however definitely revolutionized product development & I dare say how fine artists may develop their craft but it comes with a cost. PC World just had an article (see here (http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,142550/article.html)) showing prices of technology from 1988 in todays dollars. A 150MB hard drive comes in at $8755! Printing costs will come down & quality & options will get better but it will take time. ;)

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I am considering offering a discounted group build for ZB users. Still have to work out the details but there would be limited model size, material choice, polygon count, delivery time, etc. Maybe try to do it once a month or so. Anyway the point would be to give us burgeoning digital sculptors a chance to try out 3D printing at a more affordable price. :D If there's enough interest (particularly from ZBC or Pixologic) I'll put it together. Chime in if you're interested.

CHEERS!
shhark

Josh Harker (http://www.joshharker.com/)
Paradigm Development Group (http://www.pardev.com/)

[spaceboy412]

I suppose i would be interested if i finish a model that i think would be worth printing ;)
Can you elaborate on why the poly count effects the price?
I did understand what you're saying about operating costs, its just too bad, cause i would think that if it was overall cheaper, then companies would have more people interested and they would make the same amount of money etc. its funny cause i remember well over 10yrs ago a newspaper article saying how we'd have these devices at our homes like our normal printers, i suppose one day that will happen but it still seems very far off.

[Davinci990]

Lemo,
Thanks for the fascinating look at "lost foam" casting. (too bad my HOA would never allow glowing ingots in the dirt... but it's fun to imagine appalling the fascists. :D

shhark,
thank you for such comprehensive work in your posts. From my own tedium with Googling this subject a year or so ago, I can tell just looking at this thread, that y'have it in hand. I'm lurking.

RE: 2.5D Routing
Asking a noob question of the assembled experience here=

Could a Zscript be capable of bookmatching a ZB file before export, so I could at least run model halves through something like a CarveWright?
http://www.carvewright.com/cms/video

With CW, I'm not talking scrolls and low relief-- with bookmatching, I'm inverting a mould-making process in carving both positive halves, true? Since CW will accept what appears (in the video) to be 4x16 stock of some length, apparently I could attempt to batch cut a scene of models and join them. I'd need tests for poly count limits but ZB does amazing work at low counts.

If not, maybe I could develop a register jig for work-in-turn, and coax CW to rout in the round. This is from a few days of mulling... Comments?

[lemonnado]

Don't waste your time with a CarveWright... Research the forums carefully before you buy one. All I say is cheap 'flex shaft driven high speed tool'.
There are other alternatives which cost about 1000-1500$ more and have hundred times more precision and are made 100% in the US and not in one of the foreign countries which flood us with junk. If interested, PM.

And yes, you can invert a model and create a mold. Then machine it into something to wither receive wax for further investment casting or, what I actually tried with success, directly a aluminum/zinc alloy (die cast metal).

Cheers
Rainer

[shhark]

Spaceboy-

Polycounts don't really effect price but if I'm going to offer a group build then multiple models will have to share the same tray so they can be built together. The Objet software (Objet Studio) can only handle 250MB per build. Large polycounts mean large files sizes which mean fewer models that could be on a tray per build. That is why decimation, retopology, and careful modeling practices all help when creating your model. So polycount is really only applicable to me offering a group build.

[lemonnado]

Josh, I think you would have a lot of success for that group build when you would offer 'compartments'. Make it fixed cubic inche 'slots' with a fixed amount of polygons. Someone could then step up and buy a group slot with a certain amount of polygons and would know that he will receive a model of that size made with the file which contained so many polygons. To much choices usually ruin a concept. I don't know the envelope of the system you will use for that idea but if it would be 10x2x2inches then you could offer 5 slots with 2x2x2 inches volume and 50MB polycount for a fixed group price.
Just a thought...
Rainer

[shhark]

lemonnado-

You seem to know your stuff... pretty much right along the lines of what I'm thinking. Might have 3 size/price tiers. Early setups look like maybe 1x2x2, 2x2x2, & 2x2x4 "slots" as you called them. Prices would be relative to which slot you pick. Once we fill up a tray then we print & ship. Right now I'm really trying to work on how to get the price down as much as reasonably possible. Polycounts will probably be capped @ 25k or 25MB file size which happen to generally coincide. That means I could run 10 models on one build & split the build cost up between them all. I'll start running #'s next week & hopefully get something workable together soon. :idea:

[Davinci990]

Thanks, Lemo I will PM; really frantic right now so I'm putting it off, but I knew I couldn't afford even a cheapie multi-axis CNC. Besides, most work may be slip-cast porcelain or plaster. lol--I didn't think of SIGGRAPH for alternatives!... I appreciate your help.

shhark,
I am reminded of an experience from Lemonnado's idea of slots-- High-fire pottery kilns have been gang-filling space for a wide range of objects and customers, selling space by cubic inches and temperature required.

Like short-run offset litho offering a certain ink and paper of the day, one potter was offering special pricing if the customer could wait (e.g., Saturdays she ran a filled "Cone 6" kiln). For your purposes, aggregating hobby/amateur projects may be a low risk way to cross-train your crew?

[lemonnado]

I think we are up to something really cool here. Thanks a lot Shhark for putting energy into this. If this works, maybe there is a chance of ratcheting it up a notch further in the future and create a subscription. That would enable warranted batch cycles and take more risk of your shoulders and more continuity for anyone else involved. And... honestly... even if there is no strong demand... everyone can come up with 'something' to not loose the paid slot...

But I guess it would be great to get that first ever batch going. Communities like this have proven to be very enthusiastic in the begin and then to numb to follow up. Specially when it involves money. Freeloading is always appreciated but charging even the littlest amount for a fair compensation will be condemned and frowned upon; I am curious how this will work out ;).

Just brain storming here...
Rainer

[Plakkie]

I must say I haven't got a clue what you guys are talking about. I hope there will be some easy to follow summaries with pictures now and then? :cool:

[shhark]

lemmonado-
I agree about the $ issue. That's really what I'm trying to work out more than anything. More than likely I will be able to offer a deeply discounted price for Objet parts, but I certainly can't give them away & the price may still be higher than some other processes. Although the Objet parts are superior I understand that cost is a big factor & some may not take into consideration the value for the resolution over simply getting just any printed model, no matter how poor the quality.

I'm open to creative thinking about how to organize & ultimately pay for educating the ZB community & establishing a well understood and reliable pipeline for using ZB for 3D output. I wonder if Pixologic as a company would have any motivation in participating in some kind of way? Anyway I'm committed to giving it a try and letting the chips fall where they may.


Plakkie-
I promise I'll lay it all out in the simplest terms with as little techno or industry speak as possible. I expect there may be some hand holding the first time around & am prepared to handle that as best I can. I understand that while many may have heard of the processes most are not familiar with the details. That is why I'd like to give everyone a chance to try it out with some kind of introductory step. Hopefully we can crack an egg here & get something special happening with expanding how we're all applying ZB! :)

[Pride]

Think of it this way Plakkie....you have a piece of furniture you wish to get from Haaksbergen to Utrecht. If you find a truck going from Enschede to Amsterdam and "backload" the small piece it will be cheaper than paying for it as a single job. :lol:

[Plakkie]

Thanks Shhark, me personally, I've never seen a printing machine, let alone have had something printed. There are so many choices and techniques that it can be quite daunting. I'd welcome all info that would make it easier to understand. Make this thread something for experts ánd laymen. :tu:

Pride, I actually understood that! :tu: Thinking cheap is what's Holland's all about. :lol:

[mike hovland]

Well, so you all have some more information, I went out and visited with Josh, and had a tour of his facility.

He has a very nice shop, very clean and professional. Josh was more than willing to hang out and answer any questions we had. The variety and quality of the work he produces is exceptional. From small toys, to large custom pieces for some pretty big names in all fields (don't know if he wants to blow his own horn, so I'll keep names to myself).

Now, the photos he posted don't do justice to the quality and resolution of the parts. The smallest demo soldier he showed us, while it had some issues here and there held an amazing amout of detail. You can see the seam where the glove meets the hand.

The demo head was suprisinginly detailed at such a small size.While the head itself seems small, if you think of a proportional body included with the head, you realize that for most print jobs of a character, this size should be enough.

The larger dinosaur head (the blueish colored one) was amazing. The teeth were all very sharp and pointy, and there were even very small gaps between some of the teeth. The detail on the skin was fantastic, down to individual pebbles and scales. A proportional full body on the dino would easily be one of the largest dinosaur toys in my boys' collection.

We were very impressed with the shop, Josh's willingness to take the time and answer questions, not to mention the quality of the parts.

Now all we need to do is figure out what to have printed :D

[shhark]

Thanks for to plug Mike- truly appreciated!:D It was my pleasure to show you guys what we do. Looking forward to working with you.

Hey Plakkie-
Here's an image of how Objet's Polyjet printing process fundamentally works. I'll post a movie on our website soon for a better demonstration.

-Still working on the group build but will post details soon.

PolyJetProcess-in72dpi.jpg

[lemonnado]

I forgot... at the end of this thread http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=28866&page=14&pp=15 you can find a sample of Pride's and my work.
Cheers
Rainer

[algosuk3d]

hi to all this is my 1st post. tx for this great soft
I'm working on RP an archeological area in ITaly near Milan / Mediolanum
photogrammetry for mesh and photo for reference.
esported in obj format.
now we are working on cleaning the mesh.
Then i will pass in a zprint.

http://picasaweb.google.it/algosuk/Lavello2007?authkey=PXcyPgJkbKo

bye!

[Plakkie]

Shhark, thanks for the picture, I can understand those. :)
I also had a look on your (companies) website. Very nice, good information too. Keep the thread alive! :tu:

[lemonnado]

I just got a contact to cast models in Iron.... Sand Cast. I'll mill a nice head on the weekend and have it cast as paper weight. I'll post an update of how things evolve.
Rainer

[Medicinehorse7]

Hello Shark, and fellow artisians!

I am a VoTech instructor and recently set up the dream lab (25 seats) that I wanted, including site licenses for volumes of variable software (Maya, ZBrush, BodyPaint, Adobe Creative Suite, Corel All products, Avid Composer etc... ) and Hardware, lets just say that I am well satisfied.

I have been following the thread and am interested in this process. I spoke with my director about investing in the hardware for 3d printing and she said lets do it. However, since I set a record in my district for Tech purchases, I am tapped out for this fiscal year and will be intersted in more resources and information for this coming fall.

I am calling on your enthusiastic minds to give me some networking that may facillitate my ambition. Who knows, since I am a Tribal Member as well as my wife---- My tribe may consider an investment ( they just shelled out $600 Mill) for a coal plant. If you are so inclined drop me a line and lets discuss options. Serious minds make serious moves! Talk is nice but dollars are better!

[Medicinehorse7]

Hello Shark, and fellow artisians!

I am a VoTech instructor and recently set up the dream lab (25 seats) that I wanted, including site licenses for volumes of variable software (Maya, ZBrush, BodyPaint, Adobe Creative Suite, Corel All products, Avid Composer etc... ) and Hardware, lets just say that I am well satisfied.

I have been following the thread and am interested in this process. I spoke with my director about investing in the hardware for 3d printing and she said lets do it. However, since I set a record in my district for Tech purchases, I am tapped out for this fiscal year and will be intersted in more resources and information for this coming fall.

I am calling on your enthusiastic minds to give me some networking that may facillitate my ambition. Who knows, since I am a Tribal Member as well as my wife---- My tribe may consider an investment ( they just shelled out $600 Mill) for a coal plant. If you are so inclined drop me a line and lets discuss options. Serious minds make serious moves! Talk is nice but dollars are better!


This is better sorry for the black

[dread_companion]

I see that you are also very interested in 3d printing - I think it's the way of the future.
What kind of people are you looking for?
What kind of projects do you have in mind?
I'm not speaking for myself, but I'm just curious.
I've always been interested in the native american consciousness and it's ecological understanding of the earth. Through my own work, I hope I can express some of the sentiments of respect and admiration towards nature.
I've done a print myself already and some day I hope to mass produce it cheaply to make it available for people of low-income in Mexico or other countries. The main thing is to express feelings of respect towards nature through the crazy zbrush art that we've all come to love!!!!
I don't know exactly what you are looking for, but If you are looking for artists, I am willing to make myself available.
Here is my previous post, showing off my prototype:

http://209.132.96.165/zbc/showpost.php?p=382188&postcount=81

[cannedmushrooms]

cool

I'm a votech instructor also by day. and a college professor by night.



Had Zbrush in my CTE lab for a good 4 yrs or more now.

Students love it



It’s VERY expensive. Well at least it youst to be. They might have a site license now. But at the time they did not.

What I did was grew the program per year to keep costs down. I have 20 students but not all of them are 3d Modelers.

So I got roughly 2 or 3 copies per year for the duration.



What state are you in?



I'm in Michigan so we have a thing called a CIP code.

You are going to have to convince your director of what CIP code it falls in.



I placed mine under graphic design;) Since that’s what my certificate is in.





Also check with your ISD in the area for a Grant writer.

They work wonders in CTE for special stuff like you are doing.


I use my videos in the first link in my signature as my curiciulm for the CTE class. If you have any questions just private msg me.

[Davinci990]

I see that you are also very interested in 3d printing - I think it's the way of the future. <snip> I've always been interested in the native american consciousness and it's ecological understanding of the earth.
I agree it's the future and welcome the advantages, but your comment suggests an observation...
Before 3D, I was creating for the sign business. XY-axis machines, not unlike CNC, that work in vinyl, foam and other plastics are similar in one respect-- they produce chaff. I am stunned at the amount of unrecyclable waste created by the sign cutting industry, and shudder to think of the range of compounds that will be discarded through the 3D print industry.

I agree that Native American consciousness is in a unique position to add enlightened methods. MedicineHorse7, as your dream lab comes true, please figure out a way to completely close-- even profit from-- the stream of waste plastics or they may eventually lower your Nation's standard of living, as they have elsewhere. I live in Los Angeles County, where the EPA once ruled our city pay ongoing millions to build, staff and monitor facilities to correct HazMat compounds pluming through our water tables from decades of unmonitored discards by big business (aircraft and related). Litigation with neighboring cities was intense. I expect many more such sites in the future from other industries.

Hewlett-Packard is on a promising track in this closed-loop aspect:
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS148039+30-Jan-2008+BW20080130

[lemonnado]

For my experiments the 3 and 4 axis cnc mill is fantastic. I mill my pattern into wood, then use that to make a form out of sand, then cast it in aluminium. When i don't like the result, back into the scrap it goes and it will be remelted.
The amount of energy used to melt the aluminium is small. I use a camping propane gas tank for about 6-7 gallons of molten aluminium. That's a lot of sessions... No waste. No plastics. And cool looking stuff.
woddy.jpg
woody1.jpg
Both are my first experiments at the time. Just to show what you can expect to get at the start of the learning curve. Since then my results exceed even my own expectations after a year of experiments. Just to show that you can really achieve great results for less than 3000$, safe, environmentally conscious, and still utilizing all the basics, backgrounds, and technologies involved with any rapid prototyping related technology. And maybe make that repair part for that cool 50's toaster...
I made a little collaboration part together with Meats Meier and will document the making of that more detailed. Actually.... he has not seen his result yet either 8))))).

Zbrush is a fantastic tool for this kind of endeavor as the orthographic way to work is catering directly towards a 3 Axis machine. One can take a depth grab of the artwork on screen and have it milled straight away.

Cheers
Rainer

PS:Both models... as you might have guessed.... made with Zbrush!

[dread_companion]

You are so right on.
The whole techonological necessities of the modern artist (or those into the digital medium) has always been a shadow lurking over me.
In fact, the production of toys has probably got to be some of the most wasteful endeavors of the plastics industry - since in a way, you are creating something 'useless'.
If I ever find myself in the position to produce action figures, I'd try to get my plastics from recycled PET, and I wonder if that's possible. In a way I'm not too concerned about the quality of the plastics on the toys - more so the look and the 'message' they put across.
IT IS very interesting and sad how much toxic waste is produced in the creation of any of our technological tools and the production of plastic based products. Here's a very interesting website:

http://www.storyofstuff.com/ (http://www.storyofstuff.com/)

Everyday I think about how many contradictions occur once one starts to adopt more ecological ideas, but still take part in industrial-based technologies that hurt the earth.
My "apologetic" opinion is that no matter what we do as conscious artists, the industries and the plastics are here to stay. There is just no stopping this machine; so if we can at least use it in a positive way- in a way that will not perpetuate stereotypes and will have deeper meanings - then we are doing something that could potentially change the way people think in the future. You know as they say; "fight fire with fire".

Your figures are awesome. I am glad somebody is actually concerned about the wastes of this endeavor. I wonder, what you think, about doing something massively? What do you think would be clean choices?

thanks for the reply

-Dread

[lemonnado]

Awesome link! And yes, there are many other ways. Instead of buying 20 bearing blocks today for about 600$, typical made in China crap, I cast them myself for the cost of some gas and a few old aluminium storm doors. And they do not look ghetto at all 8). Cost... maybe 50$... and lot's of fun making them... more people should get out of the consumption only paralysis.
R

[shhark]

Hi Medecinehorse7,

I PM'd you. Give me a call to discuss.

[Medicinehorse7]

Thanks, you SShark, I hope you got my email, I'll keep trying to connect. You serve as a mentor in many respects yet are unaware of that to be sure. This is a very fruitful thread that I am sure will grow and grow.

Jason, Wow it seems we are very similar in our professional circles. I teach Film and Graphic arts 9-12, and am looking for another source of income in addition to my day job. I have used your technics in the past and had some of my students do some projects for Half Lfe and some Mods for Doom. Thank you very much as I am doing tutorials myself and it can be a painful process.

As far as expense goes in Arizona we have grant for our district and Wow did I use it. the CIP codes I am using pertain to Animation and related work services. Since we are so rural we have virtualy no Industry partners, and have to make work for ourselves.


Hello Dread,

I am a ceremonial leader from the FT Peck reservation, and 1 of very few that can speak Dakota. My wife and I run ceremonies for people here on the Navajo Rez and we have 3 girls enrolled here as well. I appreciate the sentiment of respect from you and return it as well.

Davinci,

My tribe has an industrial complex in Montana and have retooled several times in the past. I am close to the counsel and have inside knowledge of what turns their ears to economic development as well. I have Ideas for large plastics recycling projects, I'll see what may come

Lemonnado,

Do you have any suggestions that i may forward to our woodshop personnel about your CNC experiances I.E.(equipment, software etc...)

[dread_companion]

DAVINCI - Sorry, I replied to another person based on the comment you had made but I hope you have read my earlier reply.

I am so glad people are starting to join in on this forum discussing these issues!!! A very dear friend of mine is a dedicated student that has taken on great projects that involve raising awareness on PET recycling in Mexico. If people living in the US sometimes are mad at the amount of unrecycled PET, you guys should look at the Mexican numbers... it's just jaw-dropping. In fact, it is safe to say that less than 10% of the plastics that are thrown away in Mexico make it to a recycling center - the rest go to landfills and well, the landscape. If you speak spanish, you are at an advantage, but if not, at least look at the pretty pictures:

http://eecologico.blogspot.com/ (I made that little doggie character, called "Pinto". He aides in power point presentations, he has 3 idle animations for 3 different emotions. The kids love him!)

She's doing a great job at raising awareness where it matters; in young kids at school, hungry for knowledge of this world!

Right now I am very interested in producing a toy myself, but I don't know if I want to go the Chinese way. Even though I've contacted a company and they are very very helpful and patient (and will probably do exactly what I want) I don't know if the environmental repercussions are worth it. It'd be hypocritical to make something 'eco' and in the process, trash a chunk of the earth.

Medicine Horse: You talk about a plastics recycling facility. What kind of plastics do you recycle and how much do you actually make 'from scratch'? What is the possibility of creating toys from the recycled plastic? Is all plastic fair game? (bags, packages, bottles, old tupper ware, etc)? Sorry if I'm asking too much but this is too exciting for me!!!!!!

thank you all

[shhark]

Hey Everybody-
After much figuring & debate, I have put together a subscription package for those who have limited requirements on size & lead time. Basically, if your print requirements fit within certain dimensions & you can wait for up to 4 weeks for delivery you can save up to 60% off the single part market price. Check our website www.pardev.com (http://www.pardev.com/)or contact me for more details. I am willing to offer 50% off intorductory build for one time only to anyone interested in trying it. Contact me off board for slot pricing. For this to work I'll have to get quite a few people to do it so I can fill up a tray, but I hesitate to put up a post publicizing it for fear of it being percieved as "advertising". Any moderators out there care to offer their opinions on putting up such a post or if there is an appropriate way to offer this to everyone on ZB?
Cheers-

[spaceboy412]

Well this seems really cool, but where are the normal market prices listed?
Hey your company is not too far from where i live, you hiring?

[shhark]

Hi spaceboy412-
Sorry but we're not hiring right now but you're welcome to come by for a tour of the facility. Bring your resume. The slot prices that are based on the current market price are offered with subscription request. If you've got a file you want printed send it over & I'll get you a quote :)

Cheers-
shhark

[shhark]

Hi All-
I've gotten some inquiries that made it obvious to me that I wasn't clear enough regarding the "introductory" build. We are offering 50% off Objet 3D printing for everyone here that wants to try it. No strings attached & no subscription required. If your part fits within on of the following slots, is 25MB or less, the price for the build is as follows:

.5"x1"x1" @ $38
1"x1"x1" @ $58
1"x2"x2" @ $95
1"x2"x4" @ $125
1"x2"x6" @ $155
2"x2"x2" @ $158
2"x2"x4" @ $215
2"x2"x6" @ $275
2"x4"x4" @ $355
2"x4"x6" @ $455

Approx 4 week lead time, credit card pre-pay, shipping is extra.
Contact us (info@pardev.com) to participate or for more info.

Cheers-
shhark

[khalavi]

I don't know if this question is relevant to this forum or not but here goes.
Do we charge the same for a modelling job for a 3D print model as we do for a regular hi rez mesh or is the fee varied? Can anyone provide a breakdown of the fees to charge for such a job?

Many thanks to whoever that is able to answer this question. :D

[Sigmund Hentze]

Hi there, I have been following this development for sometime, but can anyone tell me if they have tried there sculpts on a 3D Crystal laser print yet.

Looking forward to your response...

Ziggy

[jmenna]

Perfactory has the best resolution and there are vendors out there.
It's costly, though...

http://www.best-cast.com/index.html

Best Cast has the envision hd system which is also very good and cheaper than perfactory.


envelope doesn't really matter if you can cast the parts and hand assemble.
it's best to mold and cast in resin ultimately anyway.
if you are going to wax, build in the shrink size of the final product as the wax can shrink as much as 3% which screws you up when working to spec.
I prefer to cast in a smooth-on 300 series resin and clean up by hand...use milliput or something to fix or add.

my favorite objet vendor is

http://www.interpro-rtc.com/



I build pieces out of multiple parts and hand assemble.

[delminiature]

Isn't STL files all triangle poly ? Last I checked even Nurbs where changed to triangle when pushed into stl files.

[shhark]

hi Delminiature,

If I understand you question correctly , yes STL files are all triangles.
Cheers-
shhark

[dwmdesigner]

Another source for Printing out your 3D Models if you are in Southern California is:
http://spectrum3d.com/images/newheader_022608.jpg (http://www.spectrum3d.com)

Here's an example of their work:
http://a183.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/89/l_7cb1c024478237b70f48369365c0858e.jpg
http://a438.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/44/l_6ab0e545322e948965f81afa4c201e0d.jpg

I've had a few pieces created there and was Amazed with the results!

[GROWit]

I've been following this thread for a while now and decided to chime in now that another company has been mentioned. I don't want to take from Josh's thunder. Josh, you have provided a lot of great information that has helped inform a lot of the individuals on this forum as to the possibilities of Additive Technologies and I would love to speak with you about some of your work with your polyjet.



GROWit is a rapid prototyping, now better known as Additive Technologies Company in Southern California. We have been working on new ways of creating less expensive, more accurate, custom avatars and models for people all over the world and have come up with some great solutions. We primarily use Polyjet and Z-corp for avatars for many of the same reasons that have been mentioned, but we also offer SLS, FDM, SLA, and a new great metals process called Direct Metal Laser Sintering (DMLS).



Here is a bit of the work that we have done.

Deamon low res.jpg

6.5 inch tall Demon

deamon 2.JPG deamon 3.JPG

3.5 inch tall Demon

spawn5.JPG spawn6.JPG

14 inch tall, full color, spawn

Other random items:

Objet sample pictures 10-24-07 001.jpg

Objet sample pictures 10-24-07 008.jpg

Fully Flexible figurine (much like stretch Armstrong)

Objet sample pictures 10-24-07 022.jpg Objet sample pictures 10-24-07 023.jpg

Lego Staff.jpg



Attached is the document "The Basics of Growing 3D Models". We have been continuously modifying it to help with preparing files for additive technologies.



Because of the high resolution files that are produced from z-brush, we have created an ftp link to load files that are larger than 20 MB.



http://www.growit3d.com/upload/ (http://www.growit3d.com/upload/)



We typically run files that are larger than 80MB to capture all the detail that is in the model. But we don't recommend going much higher than 100MB.



We have received a lot of questions lately about the last portion of "The Basics of Growing 3D Models" about models containing only one solid object. Technically the model doesn't have to be sent as one solid objet, but if our software cannot re-mesh the multiple solids / shells into one single solid, with just the press of a button, then the file will be returned with a few helpful hints to fix.



Please let us know if there are any questions about this technology that have not yet been answered. We would like to provide the opportunity for everyone to get a chance at producing their own model! Send us your model and we'll let you know how much it will be based on the technology and size.



Keep up the great work of keeping this forum GOING!!

[cgguru]

Hi everyone,

i am kinda new to this rapid prototype 3d models, i have modeled a head and exported the head at 1.5mil poly count, the file size is 250mb when i import it into maya and export it as stl the file becomes 811mb can, can any one help me with a some more guidence with this thing and how to get file size down

[lemonnado]

You have to talk to your 3D Print Shop and ask them how high the resolution should be. You have to take it from there. You started form the wrong end to determine the resolution. No need to create more detail than a system can reproduce. But in some cases the amount of data you mention is not out of the question. You can try and use the 'reconstruct' subdivision function in ZB or simply export a lower subdivision level to stl.
Lemo

[shhark]

HI cgguru,
250MB is the max tray size the Objet software will handle. I cannot comment on other platforms. Best thing to do is try to control unneeded mesh densities during modeling. For example, if you need alot of polys around the eyes for wrinkles just divide that area and not the entire model. Another approach is called decimation. It basically lowers the mesh resolution by averaging triangles/poly together based on your settings. Try MeshLab (http://meshlab.sourceforge.net/) for this if you don't have a software package that offers it. MeshLab is shareware so you can't beat the price & it works acceptably well.
Cheers-
shhark

[CropCircle]

can someone recommend a good work flow to take a tool to nurbs or sub-d's?

[cgguru]

Hi,

lemonnado,shhark thanks for the reply guys,

i have an order for modeling head, the client told me to work and create all the pore and texture details as well and export the high level mesh(which is 1.5mil approx) when export it crosses 250mb this time i tried importing the obj file in mesh lab and export as an stl file through mesh lab the file size is
146 mb quite less, but now he say usually he a getz a file which is around 10mb so i was just wondering is there a way to get this 1.5 mil mesh file any lesser than this size

[MouthforWar]

I had my zbrush model sent out to be made into a physical piece.
The images here are of a 5 inch tall prototype. This print was made by the guys at Growit3D.

http://www.growit3d.com/
Contact: David Gurrola

Let me know what you think. I am more than satisfied with this piece!
-Jeff
The Print:
print_zbc_5.jpg (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:zb_insimg%28%2798353%27,%27print_zbc_5.jpg%27 ,1,0%29)
print_zbc_3.jpg (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:zb_insimg%28%2798354%27,%27print_zbc_3.jpg%27 ,1,0%29)
For Scale:
print_zbc_2.jpg (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:zb_insimg%28%2798355%27,%27print_zbc_2.jpg%27 ,1,0%29)
The Zbrush Model:
Feligno_RP_2.jpg (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:zb_insimg%28%2798356%27,%27Feligno_RP_2.jpg%2 7,1,0%29)
Feligno_RP_3.jpg (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:zb_insimg%28%2798357%27,%27Feligno_RP_3.jpg%2 7,1,0%29)


This is the link to my sketchbook thread with all associated pics.
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?p=466039#post466039

I hope you like the work. Growit3D did a great job. I had the print in my hands in one week after I sent out the approved obj file. Super clean print!

[madmatt]

Have you cleaned the model by yourself?
If I can ask you: how much does it cost?

There is some mistakes with the base of the model, near the feet, the corrispondence with the Zbrush Model is missing, isn't it? But it's s a small detail...

Anyway did you think to paint it?

Bye

[vlad74]

Love the result. The concept is excellent as well.

[cgguru]

hi MouthforWar,

nice model looks great, can u tell me what was the polycount of final mesh, file size, and file format

[shhark]

Hi cgguru-

Try cluster or quadric edge collapse decimation in MeshLab. I don't think you'll have any luck getting anywhere near 10MB though, especially if you're trying to keep pore texture at the geometric level.

Cheers-
shhark

[MouthforWar]

CGGuru:
The poly count was about 650,000 polys.
He was 45mb and I sent them an OBJ file.

I thought I needed to send a super-high density mesh.
But this is not the case. Especially when he is only 5 inches tall.

The price of a print is dependant on a number of things.
The only real way to know is to send in an obj/stl file for a price quote.

The material is VERY strong. I could have it painted or mold/cast it into a bunch of copies if I wanted. I used to be a toy sculptor and I'm re-inspired by the quality of this print.

[cgguru]

MouthforWar


thanks for the in dude great work again

[RockinAkin]

Wow, great looking 3D print... it's gottta be cool to actually hold your virtual creation.

Keep up the great work!

[GROWit]

Hello all. It's great to read all the positive comments about the 3D Prints. Here at GROWit, we're preparing for Siggraph next week. If you submit two models by midnight (PST), August 7th, we'll give you the second model half price! Just mention the Siggraph promotion – by doing so you’re giving us permission to display both of your models, and we’ll ship them immediately following the show.



The half price model will be the smaller of the two, and must be less than 5 inches tall. Remember, all models need to be submitted by midnight (PST), August 7th.

E-mail sales@growit3d.com with the files and Michael or David will reply with a price.


Thanks everyone!

[zhaxen]

wow, mouthofwar, the printed model looks pretty cool.
great job by GROWit.
the material has a nice surface too.
like madmatt i asked myself if it was cleaned after the printing somehow
(something similar like cleaning a bigger piece of work with sandblaster)

im searchin for a similar company for producing some extraordinary merch, but its hard to find in germany.

and thx for the thread and all great posts. great info boost at all.

[GROWit]

Hi zhaxen. At GROWit we work with clients from Europe all the time. It takes a couple extra days to get to Germany, but otherwise es ist kein Problem.

Also, thanks to all who submitted files for Siggraph! The show was terrific!

[zhaxen]

oh thats great news.
i took a look on your website and then took a look on objets site as well and
just watched their demo.
pretty impressive both.
the connex500 is monster.

maybe we get in contact in near future. :tu:

we were at the GamesConvention2008 Leipzig with our EACT and i saw
the MuckleMannequin Booth, but when i think of would be possible when
that technology will be able to print out bigger works...oh dear^^.

[Lee Kiff]

Hi, can anyone give any advise on how to combine subtools into one solid watertight mesh? Or is it ok to have a model that is composed of overlapping geometry which has been the result of mesh inserting subtools to create a single obj? I'm trying to sort some models out, so I can have them rapid prototyped. Any info would be greatly aprieciated

[Crusoe the Painter]

Most 3D printers have no problems with models made from intersecting meshes. Just make sure each mesh is watertight, and is clean of non-manifold edges, and other junk.

[fork]

It would be good to get an answer or a link about how exactly to merge multiple subtools.

I know you can always retopologize multiple subtools... but is there a way to join/ weld multiple subtools without retopologizing and get them ready for 3D printing? Could a program like Modo help with this?

Any adivce would be greatly appreciated.

Vince

[Lee Kiff]

Most 3D printers have no problems with models made from intersecting meshes. Just make sure each mesh is watertight, and is clean of non-manifold edges, and other junk.Have you got any tips for fixing meshes which aren't watertight? I've got a model that is composed of multiple subtools. There are open / bad edges contained "within" the model and the various subtools overlap and cover these areas. I assumed that by performing boolean operations within somethig like modo I could eliminate the unwanted bad internal gemometry leaving me with a watertight external mesh. I'm not having any luck though........Any advise / workflow / suggestions would be greatly appriciated

[GROWit]

We have software that fixes the the files in a fairly automated process. If our software doesn't fix it, our engineer will fix it piece by piece. Typically, as long as it doesn't take longer than 15 minutes (it rarely does) we'll fix the parts for free.

I wish I had better advice, but I doubt our software is worth the investment for you guys as it's specific to our industry.

[fork]

Growit, Is your program Geomagic, Rapidform or Polyworks?

We finally got a copy of Geomagic along with our 3d scanner. Geo will clean up point cload data and stl mesh, I assume it will work with Zbrush obj's too. Anyway when I try this I'll post my results. The drag is that geo is incredibly expensive.

fork

[GROWit]

The program we choose to use will vary based on what exactly is wrong with the file.

[shadow0000]

shhark, thank you for sharing this kind of knowledge... (member.php?u=32444)




__________________
Rapid Prototyping (member.php?u=32444)

[Steely_340]

Quick question for you all . . .

If I were to insert a mesh on an existing subTool and then with the clay brush blend the two objects, would or could I experience problems in the printing process?

The two objects would be over lapping . . .

Thanks for the great thread.

Steely

[Pigumon]

This is a most amazing thread and I'm really upset I didn't see it when it started.

Things have certainly changed since this was started, better resolution printers for one, but not much info about prices coming down, or if any of the "gang print" scenarios ever worked out.

I noticed almost all of the problems mentioned in this thread have pretty much been solved thanks to the new zbrush plugins Decimation Master and 3D Print Exporter.

I'm curious if any of the companies listed here have tested files using the new plugins.

[shhark]

Steely_340:
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "insert a mesh" but within what I know about what you can do with ZB it shouldn't be a problem. Depending on what you're trying to do, you'll probably need to your bake your 3D layer or merge your subtools by using the "Insert Mesh" function in the Geometry palette. As long as the meshes intersect & your "shell" is watertight it should work out :) .

Pigumon:
Things really have moved fast since I started the thread. It would be great to get back on subject & keep tabs on the direction of 3D printing & how ZB interfaces. The "gang print" scenario is the way to go but somebody needs to start the club. I proposed it but really got very little organized response. I'm not with Paradigm anymore but if anyone wants to still try this I'd be happy to manage it. Drop me a PM & I'll start a queue. If we get enough models together I'll get some quotes & see if we can't figure a way to get some prints done at a reasonable price :D.

Fork:
I know this is going back in time a bit...You can merge subtools by cloning each on them then adding them with the "insert mesh" function in the Geometry palette. This is covered in the tutorial. I think the new STL Export plugin has the ability to take care of that for you now though. I think most of my tutorial is no longer necessary with the Decimation & STL plugins. Thanks to Pixologic all this just got a lot easier :tu:!

[Pigumon]

The Print:
print_zbc_5.jpg (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:zb_insimg%28%2798353%27,%27print_zbc_5.jpg%27 ,1,0%29)

AWESOME design, awesome print

he reminds me of a buffed version of Tingle from Zelda: Wind Waker

@Josh

I didn't see your reply until just now, it's really great to see how things are advancing so quickly especially in the past year. It seems Envisiontec has just released a new machine that claims to have perfectly smooth surfaces with no need for post work, stuff you can make a mold directly from!!!

I'm working on getting a blog going for this, I don't see why we couldn't incorporate a place where people could pick a "space" and it would update in a table so people could see if their items are close to being printed or not. I think you mentioned you'd have to pre-pay for such a scheme which makes sense to me. Maybe with a time-limited refund.. say if all the spaces aren't filled within 8 weeks, then the money is refunded, or with the option of paying slightly more to compensate for the few empty spaces?

I have some large pieces I'd like printed, so it doesn't really work for me in this case, but I have a ton of smaller ideas I could work on just to see.

[GROWit]

Pigumon-

Just wanted to let you (and others) know that have been using the Decimation Master and 3D print exporter now for a number of prints and worked through some issues during beta testing. Everything seems to be working great in the oficial release. Now you can send us your polypainted ZTools in VRML form and we can produce some full color models directly from Zbrush! The Decimation Master is going to be very helpful to us and has made preparing Ztools for printing much easier. We produce Zbrush models primarily using Objet's Connex (in fact the print posted by MouthforWar was printed by GROWit using the Connex), although Zcorp models are great if you want color at a great price. We have a few different colors to choose from as well as rubber parts. The Connex lays down 16micron layers (~.0006") which means highly accurate models right out of the machine.

GROWit has worked with many artists from a number of forums from around the world. Please contact us directly if you have specific questions, and we will try our best to keep an eye on the threads!

[Pigumon]

That sounds great! I assume an uncolored print is still more accurate and detailed than a colored print (because of the different process?).

I'll have to contact you through your site. Thanks!



Pigumon-

Just wanted to let you (and others) know that have been using the Decimation Master and 3D print exporter now for a number of prints and worked through some issues during beta testing. Everything seems to be working great in the oficial release. Now you can send us your polypainted ZTools in VRML form and we can produce some full color models directly from Zbrush! The Decimation Master is going to be very helpful to us and has made preparing Ztools for printing much easier. We produce Zbrush models primarily using Objet's Connex (in fact the print posted by MouthforWar was printed by GROWit using the Connex), although Zcorp models are great if you want color at a great price. We have a few different colors to choose from as well as rubber parts. The Connex lays down 16micron layers (~.0006") which means highly accurate models right out of the machine.

GROWit has worked with many artists from a number of forums from around the world. Please contact us directly if you have specific questions, and we will try our best to keep an eye on the threads!

[Arsyn]

For 3d prints, is it best to sculpt with or without perspective on? Which will look more accurate to the actual 3d print? If with perspective, what focal length?

thanks

[jymster]

-All parts need to be “closed”. There can be no open holes or gaps in meshes. The .ZTL “Demo Head” for instance is not buildable as is. The bottom is completely open and the printers cannot read a zero thickness open skin. I had to close the bottom in another program and create an .STL from that.shhark,

Can you please explain this a little further? I would like to know how to "close" the model, e.g. the "demo head" model. Preferably I would like to know how to create a shell with thickness, rather than just a zero thickness surface, but a solid model would also be good.

I want to print the model on a ZCorp 3D printer. Please help.

Thanks, James.

[Ustos]

ye... me too.


At work i've had this trouble and was deciding it for a day.. All my results is not good. :evil:

[shhark]

To close your model (solid geometry): Short of capping the model in another program you will need to close the model using the retopology tools. A quick search should get you all the info you need to figure out how to do it.

To create a shell thickness: You can try a couple approaches depending on what stage you're at in your sculpture. You can try the "Extract" function in the Subtool palette. Even though you have some control over the thickness of the extraction, you unfortunately do not have control over the direction of extraction (it extracts in both directions) so this is only good if you're in early stages of model development. It's a nice tool since you can easily mask any shape you want off your surface (i.e. holes, filigree, etc.) & translate that into a subtool. Hopefully Pixologic will add directional control to this feature which will make it more useful at any stage in your model.

The other option is to store a Morph Target, then scale your model down. I use the "Size" slider in the Deformation Palette with XYZ all turned on and type in the amount of scaling I want for best control. I suppose you could use the scale handles also. Then hit "Create Difference Mesh" and you'll have you're shelled model. Again check the forum for more details on how to do this if you're having problems.

As for sculpting with perspective, I have always sculpted with it off. It's a camera effect to help show proximity to the model or depth of field. If it somehow helps you to use it then by all means do it but I haven't found a need for it. It seems that if you were to use it at all the largest focal length (150mm) would be most appropriate. Really the only way to tell if it works for you is to do some comparison tests between a printed model and your virtual model.

Hope this helps-

[Ustos]

Dif Mesh,,,
oughhhh. . .. it's works but with some errors.
thx man

[shhark]

can you describe?

[shhark]

Actually-
try using the "Inflate" function instead of "Size" to create your Morph Difference Mesh ;)

[Pigumon]

For 3d prints, is it best to sculpt with or without perspective on? Which will look more accurate to the actual 3d print? If with perspective, what focal length?

thanksDefinitely with perspective on, at least turned on at the end so you can see what it'll look like, the real world is all in perspective.

I think 50mm focal length is about the same as the human eye sees... at least that's how it is with SLR's. I assume they've used the same standards for 3D apps.

[icreate]

This is a great thread and I have enjoyed it very much. I’m working on a chapter for a book that is talking about this very process. Getting things out of the computer and onto your desk. It is fascinating. I have also pitched a second book that will focus on artwork that is created with new technology. All of this is a part of my graduate work, bridging the gap between the traditional studio and new technology. I thought I might share a few of the links that I have found on this subject.

First I’m very excited at the growth of digital printing. Ex one has a wonderful process of printing in metal. Here is a direct link to their site and check out the artwork and printing of Bathsheba Grossman and Gil Burvel. http://www.exone.com/eng/technology/x1-prometal/artists_prometal.html

Solheim Rapid Prototyping Laboratory in the Mechanical Engineering Department on the University of Washington campus is doing a great deal of research on digital printing. I am happy to report they have just come up with a way to digitally print glass and of course ceramic. http://open3dp.me.washington.edu/

Now you will also see that solheim prints their recipes. They are open source. Open source offers the opportunity of growth.

And the blog also reads

“"Are we the first in the world to 3D print translucent porcelain? It took us a while, but we did it!" Assistant Professor Ronald Rael at the University of California at Berkeley and a team of architecture graduate students (Emily Licht, Colleen Paz, Brian Grieb and Plamena Milusheva) have developed a method for 3D printing translucent porcelain. “

3d printing of porcelain. Too cool.

Now for those who want to try their own extra hobby you can make your own 3d printer. There are a couple one is rep rap http://reprap.org/bin/view/Main/WebHome

The other is maker bot http://www.makerbot.com/ These are both open source. I have some pictures on my blog Nov 2009 of the cupcake machine at work.

If that all wasn’t cool enough. Yes, they are beginning to digitally print skin and organs. Here is an article that I wrote with links. http://www.creativesculpture.com/blog/2009/10/im-genius-3d-printing-of-human-organs.html

Please anyone else interested or knowledgeable about this topic please feel free to e mail me any information. And anyone wanting to know about it can certainly follow my blog (http://www.creativesculpture.com) or tweets.

Keep this thread alive!

Bridgette Mongeon

Oh a couple more things. A great book on the subjec is "Printing the Future" by ed grenda and his worldwide guide to rapid prototyping http://home.att.net/~castleisland/home.htm (http://home.att.net/%7Ecastleisland/home.htm)

[XN-Sigma]

Yo!

I've been lurking in these forums for some weeks now and I think it's time to start posting. :p

So, this is a very interesting thread and I have something to say about it, while lurking on these forums I came across this:

drRoot01.jpg

Well, I can't for my life remember in which thread I found it, I only remember it was in the Zbrush Main Forum. Anyway, this impressive piece of work was originally a Zbrush model, it was then printed (it is 13 inches tall if I remember correctly), and the painting was done by the same guys who printed it. The owner of the sculpt said it was done by "Ownage", so I googled ownage and found the Ownage Manufacturing ( www.ownage.com ).

It's a company specialized in making 3D prints of CHARACTERS made in Zbrush.

They seem to do 2 unique things when it comes to 3D printing. First, the amount of details is superb, they go as far as making hairlike structures by hand (see Dr.Root err... roots) and second, the incredible painting.

I'm yet to see a 3D print more impressive than this Dr.Root. :eek:

[cmoffitt]

Haha. Yes, that's my baby. Des is the guy at ownage responsible for bringing Dr Root to life and you can view his WIP thread here. LOTS of amazing prints from Ownage.

http://www.pixolator.com/showthread.php?t=65634&page=11&pp=15

[XN-Sigma]

Haha. Yes, that's my baby. Des is the guy at ownage responsible for bringing Dr Root to life and you can view his WIP thread here. LOTS of amazing prints from Ownage.

http://www.pixolator.com/showthread.php?t=65634&page=11&pp=15

Ohhh! Nice stuff indeed. Haven't seen that thread before. :cool:

heh... I wish I had desmoda's skills at painting... :p

[industripop]

WOW! I hadn't yet seen the actual print of this. They did a wonderful job of bringing Dr. Root to life!!! most times when I see these, I'm very underwhelmed, but this looks fantastic. Reminds me of one of those cool Spawn action figures.

[Pigumon]

Haha. Yes, that's my baby. Des is the guy at ownage responsible for bringing Dr Root to life and you can view his WIP thread here. LOTS of amazing prints from Ownage.

http://www.pixolator.com/showthread.php?t=65634&page=11&pp=15
XN-Sigma & CMOFFIT - I'm in your debt. I've been following the 3D print thing for about 7 years, have a bunch of samples from various companies and machines, but they're all STAIRSTEPPED. I never saw the OWNAGE thread this past year. Actually I'm pretty mad that it wasn't top row with a big "3D PRINT" tag on it.

Anyway, this company looks pretty amazing. I am a bit nervous that they're in China though... will your character suddenly appear in a HK market for $20 a piece?


Icreate- You have blown my mind. I'd like to see how clear these come out. MAKE YOUR OWN 3D PRINTER?? How can that even be possible when the real machines are barely toddlers!

Are you familiar with "Art Clay Silver/Gold"? It's real silver or gold inside a clay base, that you fire, the clay burns away, and all the metal particles bond to themselves. It shrinks of course about 80%. It seems like this could be done as a 3D Print too, that would be awesome for instant jewelry.

I'm gonna have to do some sculpts for the city or something and get some money to pay for some 3D prints :p

The quality is finally getting there, so that just means prices should start dropping (hopefully).

Keep in touch, people!

[calum5ZB]

Subscribed..thanks!!

[shhark]

:)