Is This Cheating?

[a13x]

Is using software like Makehuman cheating when making base meshes for characters? Just making the base mesh, bringing it to zbrush, and then detailing it up. Or do I have to make all the meshes myself like all the other artists out there?

What's the legit way?

[kramskoi]

Mmmmm.... yeah, kinda cheating.
Its not a bad way to learn Zbrush but theres gonna come a time when you'll need to make or alter your own base for some reason so you should learn anyway. Just be honest when posting images from meshes that aren't yours because someone else did create the makehuman mesh too.

[a13x]

Well, is it a good way to delve into zbrush/animation/etc. if I'm not a good modeler? I AM learning, but not up to par.

[Harmonic]

I would say that is like asking "Is impressionism art" or "Is performance art." or "What is a more valid form of art Realism or abstract." Basically there are going to be people on both sides of the fence adamantly claiming that there way is the best or most valid, and there will be people in the middle who say it is all art and it is all valuable.

[eldee.s]

That all depends on how you feel about it. If you feel like it's cheating, why not whip up a quick basemesh just to show yourself that you can do it, then use your plugin or whatever to get the ball rolling on future models?

Personally I just make my own base meshes, it's gotten to the point where I can build a full body human in only a few hours, then after that I can reuse it for whatever sculpts I need to (so long as it maches the body type for the mesh I built of course)

[bicc39]

One person's viewpoint:
Learn to do it on your own.
Steal everything later.
Best of both worlds

[n-drew]

make your own human and use it later as basic for all "human being" related stuff :D

[a13x]

Fair enough. I'm picking up an anatomy dvd :D

[Sebcesoir]

Depend on how much you change it...

If its just mior shape modification.. Thats not a good idea...

I fyou use there crappy base model, or a poser one, your sculpt it to give wonderfull looking, great texturing and great pose, who cares...

But it's surely less challenging ans less rewarding...

[(v)olotov]

Hello,
I have read all of the posts from the artists above. I personally didnt even read something to my liking (if I was the one asking the question)

All of them kinda...sorta told u that it wasnt OK to find another way to do your job.

All I can say is that to me that's being hypocrite, each artist have their own style... their own vision and none mention that Zbrush is just a tool like many others do not limit your self to just one tool.

Besides thats what an artist is...he takes initiative and creativity so just use your tool and use Zbrush to detail and sculpt.

ps I dont want to offend anyone with this but I want to be realistic.

[a13x]

^ That's what I felt about the integration with makehuman. It's pretty good for making BASE meshes, which are already low-poly. My only concern was just using that as a foundation for sculpting, where I would make something completely different within zbrush. Many artists and studios have they're own "standard" meshes and ones they used before. But I don't have the time to create an arsenal of meshes for various projects. Also, why did people make that program if no one's going to use it :D

Just my two cents.

[(v)olotov]

yes and besides... think of all the artists they dont really relie on software such as maya, blender, xis, etc etc ---zbrush is uncomparable because of 2.5 pixol painting, clay-like molding yada yada lol... just do ur thing man...
good luck.

[(v)olotov]

Yeah, you are right but I mean all of these are tools to use... "cheating" in this matter doesn't really apply because for instance are you going to deny even the best artists dont use shortcuts? thats all I see when He asks the question but you are right, you cant just run with out learning to walk. If he is interested in the 3d-multimedia-animation-yadayada field he is going to learn the proper way eventually.

When I began with photoshop I didnt start knowing, (like you say) so I read tutorials, articles and downloaded .psd documents to help me to see--"OH THIS GOES RIGHT HERE..." lol I dont want to fight lets just give him the right to choose. To my point of view, its not cheating because every little thing is helpful for those that want to learn.

[billrobertson42]

As good of a non-answer answer as any is that it depends on your goals. :)

[n-drew]

whats the problem making your own personal basic human mesh and use it for all sculpts? why using crappy makehuman/poser models? i dont get it.

[Svengali]

Every composer is a musician but not every musician is a composer. Depends on where your creativity is centered and what your personal goals are or what commercial opportunities you want to pursue.

Asking the question makes me think that you will quickly be making your own models after you get frustrated with the limitations of the pre-mades, so why not proceed on several fronts simultaneously?

Sven

[lemonnado]

The term 'cheating' refers to a breach of rules. There are no rules. So there cannot be any 'cheating'. But in terms of a value, the mesh made form scratch represents a greater value than the work derived from prefabricated parts.
Lemo

PS:
I lately saw a sign in a high end furniture shop's spray booth (the place where parts are finished/painted) and that said: You cannot polish a turd!.
So... while texturing or assigning material to a model... keep that simple sentence in your mind. The sentence applies also in the virtual world.

[(v)olotov]

lol agree with alot of you fellow artists I feel theres nothing wrong if he wants to learn like that maybe he just wants to test what hes able to do to that mesh. Once familiar to the software he can start sculpting. I have only one thing to say why is it that EVEN zbrush comes with already made meshes.... :lol:
if not for you to help you out..

:D
(v)

[a13x]

Actually, all of you basically said what my aims were. The base meshes are just for tests with rigging, animation, etc, not final production. So of course I'm going to make everything from scratch later on :D.

[tez]

I find it handy somtimes to grab a poser model to try out lighting or rendering test. Its also handy to use them if your learning how to texture and havent got the tine to go through the whole procedure of making your own mesh. I think its cheating when your not using your own mesh and dont mention it when posting your work, alowing others to think this is totaly your own work from scratch.

I find it most satisfining to build my own meshes and of course for alot of us we didnt have such great tools like zbrush when we started modling ,so it was down to learning the harder way. There are so many ways to get your finnished work and each way needs your best to get the results your after. Anatomy, form, weighting, posing, expression, lighting texturing e.c.t. Use the pre made mesh to learn with but its a good idear to take on the modling stage first.

[Blaine91555]

The NEVER-ENDING discussion. Before CG, yeah I know - I'm old, the argument was always about is it OK to use photographs as reference for a painting if you did not take the photo yourself. I even had one Teacher in the late 60's who taught that not making your own oils from scratch was heresy.

My personal point of view is "use the tools you have to their best advantage". If you are doing this to earn a living and a stock image or model helps speed things up it would be dumb not to use them. Once you have built your first base model, whats the point. To keep reproducing the same one over and over again? When using one you purchased, why buy it if you are afraid to use it? Even more important, why do they sell them if not to use? The height of hypocrisy would be to build models to sell and then criticize someone for using them.

The first couple of humans I tried on my own ended up looking like exact copies because I used other models as references. So, am I right to use those? What is the difference? I'd say the models included with the software were put there to use, otherwise why waste the bandwidth on the download?

Having wasted all this space rambling on, it comes down to how do you feel about it? I worked it out by building a couple and then just grabbing whichever one I felt matched my needs and enjoying the process.

[tez]

I think it depends on how far down the chain you go to be honnest. We all have to start with somthink and our idears that seem our own where installed by experiences or images we have seen in our lives, how far do you go.

When you look at the finnal results how much of it done directly by you, is the thought I have. For instance if you use a pre made mesh and pull the chin down push the eyes in and paint it all pink, how far did you take that process from where it started? If you look at a photo refference to learn anatomy ,and from that you have a fully created 3d character put in a scene posed to show a action of thought of intention, with good textures, lighting and rendering then this is a huge achivment from where it started.

Anyone can have the tools, but its the finnal results that speak out loud. Its down to personal prefference on what you set out to achive, if you got there then thats fine.

[SalmonGod]

a related question -- if you start with someone else's base mesh, sculpt, and then retopologize, how much is it considered to be derived from that base mesh when none of that geometry even exists anymore?

I actually had very little understanding of topology until Z3 gave me the ability to draw it freehand on top of an existing model... I'd built a couple base meshes before, but they were by following step-by-step tutorials that explained every click in the process... now I'm just sculpting from whatever base suits me best, be it a sphere or SuperAverageMan, and then drawing my own topology on top later because I can see exactly how all the density and flow needs to work together without any advanced knowledge or planning

I agree with all the sentiments that how you feel about it in the end is the best measure... and I feel fine... but I wonder if there are any purists out there who would still say that the above approach is amateur, or specific credits need to be given, or extra steps need to be taken to be more original?

[tez]

a related question -- if you start with someone else's base mesh, sculpt, and then retopologize, how much is it considered to be derived from that base mesh when none of that geometry even exists anymore?

I actually had very little understanding of topology until Z3 gave me the ability to draw it freehand on top of an existing model... I'd built a couple base meshes before, but they were by following step-by-step tutorials that explained every click in the process... now I'm just sculpting from whatever base suits me best, be it a sphere or SuperAverageMan, and then drawing my own topology on top later because I can see exactly how all the density and flow needs to work together without any advanced knowledge or planning

I agree with all the sentiments that how you feel about it in the end is the best measure... and I feel fine... but I wonder if there are any purists out there who would still say that the above approach is amateur, or specific credits need to be given, or extra steps need to be taken to be more original?Theres nothink wrong with using say the super average man as this is a good base mesh. More so is using such a mesh alows you to learn better methods of topology, but even still this wouldnt be totaly your work even if this was new geomatry.

When I look through the zbrush gallery and even more so, the older top row images, your see the artest has good anatomy knowledge, and use his/her creativness to complete the image. If I where to make a new base mesh off the super average man id be using the good form of somone elses skill to get my base mesh, even if I didnt project all the details. This isnt cheating this is making good use of the provided meshes and the new zbrush tools.

I think all in all its how you feel about it, and how others feel if or when they find out that some credit should have gone to the originator of the form. Just use the meshes that you want and save your self time. Dont stop learning how to build meshes and in the end your want to use your own.

Zack Petroc for example in his human anatomy dvd, he starts with the most basic mesh and finnishes with fantastic results. He used a skellington in maya to build his basic posture for the base mesh, but the fact is he does it not because he has to, but because it makes sence to use a visual aid. Again he starts with nothing and finnishes with a perfectly sculptured human form.

If you used another base mesh and makde it into somthink quite different and original and just mentioned whos mesh it was showing a before and after image your be respected for it and you work and skills wil show through what ever mesh you use.

[DocChaos]

in my opinion it is artistic behavior to use all resources you can get.

well nothing is an unique idea, evrything is inspired by something. it all begun with the nature.. where we get our basic impressions.. till now we are cheating from the nature if you like to say it like this way ;)
so feel free to use what you like to. exept stealing art.

i think you should force your skills in what you can do, if you are to lazy or you got fear to model a basic char by yourself .. then why the hell you shouldnt use a tool for? once in a time you will be happy if you do a fine basic model by yourself.

at least.. the result counts

regArts
k0s

[Randy_Riley]

I would say it is totally cheating. Do you really give a crap? If your going to put it on a demo reel I would state that you use so and so for a besh mesh. If your messing around who cares. In production its what ever gets it out the door.

[DocChaos]

and what about if you'r doin nice in sculpting, texturin but got no hands on modelin? i know many guys around here, which are doin nice sculpture work doin fantastic normals and so on.. but they need base meshes which they aren't good in .. if they fail in base-meshes they cant even produce nice sculptures. at least if he is showin that on a reel, i think good leaders or producers can point out what he was doin and what not. if you'r cheatin completely like the "stolen work" thread, then it might comes out sooner or later that he will fail in production.

might be hard to get my point sorry

regArts
k0s

[SalmonGod]

I get what you're saying... basically, if you've got talent, then it will be recognized regardless... even if you can't do everything, you can still make yourself valuable to a team

on the other hand, if you lack talent or motivation to do anything of worth on your own, then you'll be hard pressed to keep a job